515 réponses à ce sujet

[berelinde]

Yeah well Anders dissaproves with Merrils so i don't see any of those two as exemplars od how a mage should be. Wynne was a good mage.

Oh, I'm not saying anything about how a mage should be or pointing to any examples of a good mage. I was only saying that it was possible to become a blood mage without ever communicating with a demon. I tend to keep my own counsel on the morality question. People tend to cherry-pick examples to support their arguments, which are all entirely pointless because people's minds are already made up anyway, so it just turns into a flame war. But if somebody wants to talk about the lore or about game dialogue as it pertains to facts, I'm game.

 

About Wynne... IDK. She isn't a favorite of mine. Too preachy, and I swear she begins every conversation with "And now, we're going to talk about <thing>," which I find annoying. But YMMV. A lot of people do like her, just not me.

[MisterJB]

Personally, I think the mages have proved they are able to rule and police themselves.

They did, after all, completely wash their hands off the mages burning everything in the Hinterlands because "their magic gave them the right".

 

No, really, good job. How can normal people feel unsecure just because there aren't Templars around?

[Ogillardetta]

Oh, I'm not saying anything about how a mage should be or pointing to any examples of a good mage. I was only saying that it was possible to become a blood mage without ever communicating with a demon. I tend to keep my own counsel on the morality question. People tend to cherry-pick examples to support their arguments, which are all entirely pointless because people's minds are already made up anyway, so it just turns into a flame war. But if somebody wants to talk about the lore or about game dialogue as it pertains to facts, I'm game.

 

About Wynne... IDK. She isn't a favorite of mine. Too preachy, and I swear she begins every conversation with "And now, we're going to talk about <thing>," which I find annoying. But YMMV. A lot of people do like her, just not me.

Well I like her more than the other mages weve gotten except for Dorian he raises questions if you ally with the mages.

[Ryriena]

Yeah well Anders dissaproves with Merrill's so i don't see any of those two as exemplars od how a mage should be. Wynne was a good mage.

Ummmmmm....."...." She was taken by a spirit of faith laughs, and people call Anders bad because of this by calling him an abomination. Ect

[Ogillardetta]

Ummmmmm....."...." She was taken by a spirit of faith laughs.

Better that than being lured by a demon on the other side of a mirror or being forced to blow up the chantry by vengance..

[Ryriena]

Better that than being lured by a demon on the other side of a mirror or being forced to blow up the chantry by vengance..

Ummmm he was inhabited by Justice who was a spirit... Justice was the one to blow the chantry did you ever do a 100% rival romance with him, he admits Justice took control of him and he couldn't stop him or tell Hawke about the bomb.

[Steelcan]

Ummmm he was inhabited by Justice who was a spirit... Justice was the one to blow the chantry did you ever do a 100% rival romance with him, he admits Justice took control of him and he couldn't stop him or tell Hawke about the bomb.

Justice is also perverted into a demon of Vengeance.....

[Lord Raijin]

He came from the same Circle as Wynne and Finn, they were both granted permission to leave the Circles for long periods of time because they were trustworth and neither of them went full crazy mode like him.
Anders wasnt trustworth, he wanted to breake the rules and was punished because of it, he going to solitary was a punishment after several attempts to flee. And he only proved the templars were right about him.

 

So the circle is a giant size baby sitting center? Is that what you're telling me?

 

Anders wanted freedom. He wanted to live his life the way he wanted to, not how someone, who wears a funny little toilet hat, wants to run it. Do you not blame him for being a rebel and unruley?

 

[Minttymint]

I guess I mean, I was actually 100% in support of templars so yeah. Like in DA:O I was 50/50 but eventually went for mages and in DA2 I went 100% mages, so its a big turn around for me. I wouldn't say unable though just that I didn't.

[Ogillardetta]

Ummmm he was inhabited by Justice who was a spirit... Justice was the one to blow the chantry did you ever do a 100% rival romance with him, he admits Justice took control of him and he couldn't stop him or tell Hawke about the bomb.

Yes thats exactly what I said. Vengance was controlling him too blow up a chantry and thats not really what I would call good. Wynne sacrificed herself for her sons love and thats alot more noble than the actions of Anders Imo.

[Boost32]

So the circle is a giant size baby sitting center? Is that what you're telling me?
 
Anders wanted freedom. He wanted to live his life the way he wanted to, not how someone, who wears a funny little toilet hat, wants to run it. Do you not blame him for being a rebel and unruley?
 

And in the end he proved he cant live free.
Killed hundreds of innocents people to cause a war that killed thousands of innocents.

[Ryriena]

Justice is also perverted into a demon of Vengeance.....

What you call a demon I call a spirit my god I hanged out to much with Sloas lol

[Ogillardetta]

What you call a demon I call a spirit my god I hanged out to much with Sloas lol

Yeah if you think that a being that blew up a chantry is benevolent then yes.

[MisterJB]

So the circle is a giant size baby sitting center? Is that what you're telling me?

 

Anders wanted freedom. He wanted to live his life the way he wanted to, not how someone, who wears a funny little toilet hat, wants to run it. Do you not blame him for being a rebel and unruley?

Should we applaud his irresponsibility? His inability to acknowledge the threat he poses? A threat that came to pass as he was possessed and killing hundreds of people.

Maybe his wish to have the right to electrocute people if he feels like it? Should that be supported?

Or maybe his willingness to enslave people he doesn't like as seen with Fenris?

 

If someone in quarantine chooses to leave, placing everyone around them in danger, would you have us clap for them as well?

[Ryriena]

Yes thats exactly what I said. Vengance was controlling him too blow up a chantry and thats not really what I would call good. Wynne sacrificed herself for her sons love and thats alot more noble than the actions of Anders Imo.

I believe he gave the mages the will to fight and light the fuse for the war and I say that is more noble, just because you support the circles and imprisonment for Mages doesn't mean it's any less noble.

[Lord Raijin]

You obviously haven't been in the Fiona hate thread. It's full of people defending her and saying she isn't to blame.

 

And yes, Kirkwall was territible. EVERYBODY acknowledges that, pro circle and pro mage. It's also said about a hundred times in game (not to mention dev comments) that Kirkwall wall was the exception. In most circles abuses were extremely rare. Is better oversight of the templars needed? Yes absolutely. Do templar abuses mean the terrible things mages have done are somehow justified or excusable? Heck no!

 

No I haven't been to the Fiona hate thread, not yet that is.  According to Vivienne she voted to split the circle in two. The rebels follow her while the loyalist follows Vivienne. I do not blame her for that... however I'm blaming her for getting herself, and her fellow rebel mages involved in a tevinter magister who is involved in the Venatori that is linked to Corypheus.

[Ogillardetta]

I believe he gave the mages the will to fight and light the fuse for the war and I say that is more noble, just because you support the circles and imprisonment for Mages doesn't mean it's any less noble.

I still think that the muder of innocents is immoral no matter how noble your goals are.

[MisterJB]

When you really think about it, it's like the mages endeavoured to prove the Chantry and Templars right about everything.

 

"Free Mages will lead to another Tevinter." And the mages betray Ferelden and surrender Redcliff to a Magister.

"We can't trust mages to police themselves because who knows if they won't ignore crimes committed by mages against non-mages?" And the mages ignore as defectors kill people in the Hinterlands because they feel their magic gives them the right.

 

Really, we just needed a few Abominations and they get themselves a trifecta.

[Lord Raijin]

And Fiona was interested in what kind of compromise?
She started a rebellion she couldnt win, if in the ending she can get what she wanted its because of luck, nothing more.

 

Fiona didn't started the war the mages did as a whole by casting in their vote to fight instead for independence instead of surrendering. In fact if you want to have someone to blame for initating the war you can blame it on Rhys, since he inherited the postion of Representative of the Aequitarians.
 

 

http://dragonage.wik...on_Age:_Asunder

 

Heres a refreshment of what happen during the last chapter of Asunder.

Spoiler

A month has passed since the events at the White Spire, with the surviving mages having fled to Andoral's Reach, an ancient Tevinter fortress on the borders of Orlais. Mage refugees continue to arrive in dribs and drabs, and news continues to filter through that Circles are fighting and the templars are cracking down more fiercely in response. Word has come that the Right of Annulment has been enacted upon the Dairsmuid Circle in Rivain.

 

Rhys, who has since left the Libertarian fraternity to take his mother's place as leader of the Aequitarians, confronts Adrian, accusing her of murdering Pharamond and framing him for the crime. Adrian confesses, but is unrepentant, arguing that Pharamond begged to die rather than be made Tranquil again and that the only way Wynne could be convinced to agree with independence from the Chantry was if the templars threatened someone she cared about, arguing that her actions were for the good of all mages, reminding Rhys far too much of what happened in Kirkwall and the actions of Anders. Rhys contemplates killing Adrian for her actions, but instead tells her their friendship is finished. Rhys then storms off, leaving Adrian with her guilt and sorrow.

 

Later that day, the Grand Enchanter reconvenes the conclave and puts forward the motion for separation from the Chantry again, arguing that whatever is decided, the Circles of Magi will do so as a whole. Since so few First Enchanters are present, the mages will be represented by the fraternities they belong to in the voting. As expected, the Loyalists vote that the mages submit to the Chantry and the Libertarians vote for independence; the deciding vote lies with the Aequitarians. Rhys reluctantly votes for independence and the motion is passed: the mages will fight the Chantry for their independence, their freedom, their very survival.

After the vote, Rhys and Evangeline, who have become lovers, share a moment; Evangeline consoles Rhys about his feelings of failure regarding Cole and reassures him that whatever comes, they'll face it together. The pair then head to an old oak tree just outside the fortress, where Wynne has been laid to rest. A small funeral is held, and as Rhys muses on his mother's life and how things might have been different had he not been taken from her, Leliana sings a a hauntingly beautiful song in memory of Wynne.

Epilogue
9:40 Dragon

[Lord Raijin]

And in the end he proved he cant live free.
Killed hundreds of innocents people to cause a war that killed thousands of innocents.

 

Grand Cleric Elthina had nothing to do with his actions? The fact that Meredith was going bat **** crazy with her red lyirum sword, and the Grand Cleric did nothing to stop it? Didn't even send in a request to the Grand Cathedral to send out a unit of Seekers to investigate Merediths behavior, and to examine her mental status of contuining on with her duties?  The effects of lyrium addiction for templars include paranoia, obsession, and dementia. Over time, templars grow disoriented, incapable of distinguishing memory from present, or dream from waking. They frequently become paranoid as their worst memories and nightmares haunt their waking hours.

 

Are you telling me that Elthina didn't see these symptoms while she willingly gives her pet Knight-Commander even more lyrium?
 

Anders did right by blowing up the Chantry. Meredith needed to be stop. He did the city a favor by restoring order. With Meredith dead now the city can vote for a new Viscount.

[Boost32]

Grand Cleric Elthina had nothing to do with his actions? The fact that Meredith was going bat **** crazy with her red lyirum sword, and the Grand Cleric did nothing to stop it? Didn't even send in a request to the Grand Cathedral to send out a unit of Seekers to investigate Merediths behavior, and to examine her mental status of contuining on with her duties? The effects of lyrium addiction for templars include paranoia, obsession, and dementia. Over time, templars grow disoriented, incapable of distinguishing memory from present, or dream from waking. They frequently become paranoid as their worst memories and nightmares haunt their waking hours.


Are you telling me that Elthina didn't see these symptoms while she willingly gives her pet Knight-Commander even more lyrium?

Anders did right by blowing up the Chantry. Meredith needed to be stop. He did the city a favor by restoring order. With Meredith dead now the city can vote for a new Viscount.

Im talking about the innocents people caught in the blast, Im talking about the people who were killed or had their house destroyed by the debris, the people who were caught in a stupid war. Its ok they died? They deserved to die?

[Bad King]

The revelations from Solas and Cole about the nature of spirits/demons (as well as what we learn about the Seekers) made me more anti-Chantry/anti-templar rather than less sympathetic towards mages. For the record, I have never been in favour of mage independence:

In DA:O I was generally pro-status quo as the Circle in Ferelden and most of the templars that you meet in the game are for the most part pretty decent.

In DA:2 I was pro-mage due to the templars getting too political, and I sided with the mages due to my belief that Meredith's invocation of the Right of Annulment was unjustified and unlawful. I nevertheless was opposed to complete mage freedom as I recognised that not all templars are like the crazies we saw in Kirkwall.

 

By DA:I I am still opposed to complete freedom, but I believe that considerable reform is needed in the Circles without templar involvement and with minimal Chantry involvement. If spirits are as fluid as Solas states, then the Andrastian way of thinking (of separating spirits into two immutable categories, both of which are distrusted and viewed as inferior) is a flawed way of governing the world's mages as it can often lead to the corruption of spirits into malevolent entities. If more mages were told the truth rather than the Chantry orthodoxy, I believe that acts of harmful buffoonery (such as by those mages in Solas's quest) relating to the enslaving of spirits for purposes not relating to their true nature would be far rarer. 

 

Furthermore, what we learn about the Seekers/templars committing more acts of savagery such as their instantaneous Annulment of the Dairsmuid Circle (without any negotiation or cultural sensitivity) and the Seekers' deliberate covering up of the cure for tranquillity in order to cling to power has led me to the belief that the Seekers/templars should be scrapped as a form of overseeing mages (though such agents would be useful in hunting down mage fugitives). 

 

For these reasons, I believe that the best option is to conscript the mages/Leliana as Divine or perhaps conscription/Cassandra.

[Lord Raijin]

Im talking about the innocents people caught in the blast, Im talking about the people who were killed or had their house destroyed by the debris, the people who were caught in a stupid war. Its ok they died? They deserved to die?

 

Unfortunately innocent people get tangle up into wars. It's the ultimate price.

 

For an example... was it the United States government fault that over 135,000 Japanese people died in the Hiroshima bombing in Japan? While it was sad that innocent people died.. it was not the US governments fault because we gave the The Imperial Government of Japan what they desire... war. They declared war on us first on the morning of December 7, 1941 when they deliberately attacked Pearl Harbor. We just returned fire right back on their soil.

 

Same goes for the mages and the Chantry. The mages are fed up with the kind of abuse that they get... being forced to live in a tower for the rest of their lives as prisoners, unable to have a family of their own, and getting “permission” to temporary leave the tower because they're a good little obedient mages is ridiculous.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

 

I was pro templar In DAO (i had recognized the value of the templar order, but some reforms were needed), i was pro-templar DAII and for good reasons, aside from meredith and some other morons, they were a n excellent order in Kirkwall, great Cullen. 

DAI pro templar once again and even without hesitation the reasons are obvious.

Many are Pro-mages because mages are the figures that they wanted to be, a dream in the heads of many players,  so is obvious that the Bioware had created the atmosphere to try to make the templars more attractive, since the mages no matter the disaster they would cause, they would have always a huge number of fans, due too their magic.

 

You're making a lot of assumptions. I almost exclusively play rogues and I'm still pro-freedom.

[Ashagar]

Unfortunately innocent people get tangle up into wars. It's the ultimate price.

 

For an example... was it the United States government fault that over 135,000 Japanese people died in the Hiroshima bombing in Japan? While it was sad that innocent people died.. it was not the US governments fault because we gave the The Imperial Government of Japan what they desire... war. They declared war on us first on the morning of December 7, 1941 when they deliberately attacked Pearl Harbor. We just returned fire right back on their soil.

 

Same goes for the mages and the Chantry. The mages are fed up with the kind of abuse that they get... being forced to live in a tower for the rest of their lives as prisoners, unable to have a family of their own, and getting “permission” to temporary leave the tower because they're a good little obedient mages is ridiculous.

 

The bombing of the chantry murdering of hundreds of innocent people was terrorism pure and simple, the deliberate murder of mass murder civilians can not be justified, Even Anders knew that and he did it anyway knowing he did not deserve to live after committing such a act.