515 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

And you are using a lot of "might" yourself. Speculation is not basis for incarceration. Kids can take their parents guns and go out killing people. Still kids are not thrown behind bars on that basis. Besides who says mages in control would act worse than mundanes? Cause Tevinter?

I'm using no "might" whatsoever. These things will all happen. Even if it's just a mage in a dozen or more, these cases will happen.

 

Our own world has its ways of dealing with threats. Personally, I don't agree with most of them, not even close but it is what it is. Thedas has their own ways, the Circle amongst others.

 

It is irrelevant how they behave when in control. Mages deserve their autonomy but normals don't? Is that what you are saying.

[Tremere]

Their leadership has ALWAYS been the problem.

 

The circle tower in ferelden is a good example, you've got a good grand enchanter, a good knight commander "if the grand enchanter says it's safe then it's safe." ('Shut up Cullen.') and yet their leadership still got possessed by a pride demon and went right off the deep end. Yet unpossessed rank and file mages were were aplenty.

 

 

DA2 same thing, Orsino unable to protect his charges, turning a blind eye to psychos and blood mages that would inevitably get caught thus leaving him even MORE unable to protect his charges, etc. Up there in the top 10 worst grand enchanters i'm sure.

 

and DA:I, same thing. Rank and file Mages, you got good apples 'not too sure about this tevinter thing,' bad apples 'mages must rule all!' and of course, a completely idiotic leadership 'lets become slaves and servants to magisters cause thats totally a different and better idea than we had before that in no way can backfire!'

 

 

 

And unlike, say, DA2 where Cullen openly rebelled against Melissan err i mean Meredith and was joined by his fellow Templars, Circle Mages don't seem to rebel against bad leadership in any of the 3 games. They may not like it, but they don't do anything. Makes me sad.

As I recall, Vivienne seems to have an opinion on the subject. While most don't like the fact that she's Pro-Circle, she does acknowledge that poor leadership was the reason behind circles going bad. I guess that's one in a row for BioWare on this subject. *chuckles*

[Uccio]

I'm using no "might" whatsoever. These things will all happen. Even if it's just a mage in a dozen or more, these cases will happen.

 

Our own world has its ways of dealing with threats. Personally, I don't agree with most of them, not even close but it is what it is. Thedas has their own ways, the Circle amongst others.

 

It is irrelevant how they behave when in control. Mages deserve their autonomy but normals don't? Is that what you are saying.

 

No. You are only assuming it will happen, that is the difference. Again we can whip up Tevinter as example. A mage run country, still up and working. How is that? Why hasn´t it imploded with all the kids throwing fire and turning into abominations? I wonder.

 

I was only referring to your line with "mages being in the power" as if it itself would be something to worry about.

[X Equestris]

Unfortunately innocent people get tangle up into wars. It's the ultimate price.

For an example... was it the United States government fault that over 135,000 Japanese people died in the Hiroshima bombing in Japan? While it was sad that innocent people died.. it was not the US governments fault because we gave the The Imperial Government of Japan what they desire... war. They declared war on us first on the morning of December 7, 1941 when they deliberately attacked Pearl Harbor. We just returned fire right back on their soil.

Same goes for the mages and the Chantry. The mages are fed up with the kind of abuse that they get... being forced to live in a tower for the rest of their lives as prisoners, unable to have a family of their own, and getting “permission” to temporary leave the tower because they're a good little obedient mages is ridiculous.

The Chantry bombing killed hundreds of people with the express purpose of starting a war. The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki also killed thousands of people, but they ended the war. Ultimately, they saved lives. All the Chantry bombing did was set in motion a war that killed thousands from both sides, and drug plenty of civilians into it. There is really no ground on which to compare them.

[MisterJB]

"Is objectively dangerous"=/= "meriting a different treatment". Besides, the people who can subdue and police/hunt down the people who light people on fire with their mind are objectively more powerful than them, otherwise they wouldn't be able to do that. Want to lock those up? Who will do that? And then you'd have to lock up the new people too, because they'd be even more powerful and dangerous. And so on. Bullshit.

Also, your second would only make sense if laws were never idiotic or unfair. Is this what you're arguing? That everything that's legal is always good? Because if you're not doing that, you can't use legality as a basis for what is acceptable and what isn't.

Soldiers undergo extensive training and screening process, their abilities are not given randomly to the Hannibal Lecters of the world like magic is.

And then, Templars are especially dangerous to mages because they disrupt mana, not so much to normal people.

Then, their weapons can be taken from them.

Then, they aren't susceptible to possession except in very special cases.

Then, non-mages who, without Templar abilities, can match and defeat mages are above the norm whereas the average mage is more dangerous than the average normal person.

 

It's not "laws". It's the very concept of the legal system, restrict our freedoms so we can coexist.

People in our world and Thedas live under this. Should mages be the exception?

But "we just want equal rights under the law", you'll say. And I'll say, the mages aren't equal. The fact they are more dangerous means their restrictions must be harsher to account for this, it's only logical and fair.

And then you'll refuse this because you've done so in the past.

[MisterJB]

No. You are only assuming it will happen, that is the difference. Again we can whip up Tevinter as example. A mage run country, still up and working. How is that? Why hasn´t it imploded with all the kids throwing fire and turning into abominations? I wonder.

 

I was only referring to your line with "mages being in the power" as if it itself would be something to worry about.

There is no need for it to implode in order to prove magic is dangerous. Non-mages are second class citizens there. Magisters can just sacrifice five year olds at parties.

 

And I am saying that "mages being in power" is in itself a problem. You support mages fighting for their independence but don't extend the same courtesy to normal people?

[MisterJB]

As I recall, Vivienne seems to have an opinion on the subject. While most don't like the fact that she's Pro-Circle, she does acknowledge that poor leadership was the reason behind circles going bad. I guess that's one in a row for BioWare on this subject. *chuckles*

 

You'd think you of all people would be against magic users.
 

[TevinterSupremacist]

Soldiers undergo extensive training and screening process, their abilities are not given randomly to the Hannibal Lecters of the world like magic is.

And then, Templars are especially dangerous to mages because they disrupt mana, not so much to normal people.

Then, their weapons can be taken from them.

Then, they aren't susceptible to possession except in very special cases.

Then, non-mages who, without Templar abilities, can match and defeat mages are above the norm whereas the average mage is more dangerous than the average normal person.

 

It's not "laws". It's the very concept of the legal system, restrict our freedoms so we can coexist.

People in our world and Thedas live under this. Should mages be the exception?

But "we just want equal rights under the law", you'll say. And I'll say, the mages aren't equal. The fact they are more dangerous means their restrictions must be harsher to account for this, it's only logical and fair.

And then you'll refuse this because you've done so in the past.

They can take another sword if you take theirs away. Swords are easily obtainable. Plus, you can't take their training away. And templars are powerful soldiers, of course they're dangerous to normal people. And possession isn't the only way to corrupt someone, people are inherently flawed and can abuse power, demonic influence or not.

 

Assumptions. There is no proof that non-restrictive legal systems are not functionable. Besides the majority of laws don't punish hypothetical actions based on how you were born. What you describe as the cornerstone of legal systems isn't what's happening in the cases of how mages are handled in Thedas. There's a difference between legal responsibilities and restriction of bodily autonomy. There are limits laws ought not to pass.

"It's only logical and fair" [Opinion].

[Dabrikishaw]

Unable to? No.

[MikaelNovasun]

No. You are only assuming it will happen, that is the difference. Again we can whip up Tevinter as example. A mage run country, still up and working. How is that? Why hasn´t it imploded with all the kids throwing fire and turning into abominations? I wonder.

 

I was only referring to your line with "mages being in the power" as if it itself would be something to worry about.

 

I do not get using Tervinter as the "ideal", when discussing freedom. They have an active slave trade. They are not the embodiment of mage freedom. Even Dorian who wishes to see Tervinter improve itself sees nothing wrong with slavery. Fenris' sister is hinted at having magic ability while still a slave and promised the chance to become a magister if she helps recapture him. To the common man Tervinter embodies everything people fear about magic. A mage ruling class and those with weak magic potential or none at all as slaves or the lowest of social classes with their only hope of improving their station is to have a mage child.

 

If you want to argue for freedom/equal treatment of mages Tervinter is a poor example.

 

If we stick to Thedas and forgo "real world" comparisons, we have two examples of mages given complete freedom, the Elven empire and Tervinter. It is just great being a non-mage or weak magic user in both those societies.

 

The chantry and the circles are not the answer, but neither is mages given complete freedom with no type of oversight. Sadly there is no middle ground in the game, it is either circles with less restirctions or mages with no over sight except their own.

[TevinterSupremacist]

If you want to argue for freedom/equal treatment of mages Tervinter is a poor example.

The fact that they have slaves and the fact that the mages are free are two separate issues.

[MisterJB]

The fact that they have slaves and the fact that the mages are free are two separate issues.

What if one is what leads to the other.

People with inherent power are free. People use that power to assume control. People without power are left behind. People without power suffer.

[TevinterSupremacist]

What if one is what leads to the other.

People with inherent power are free. People use that power to assume control. People without power are left behind. People without power suffer.

"What if" Isn't enough. Correlation doesn't equal causation. In one scenario some people might abuse others [and not every mage will do that to every mundane]. In the other scenario all mages are restrained.

You can't compare hypothetical wrongdoings with definite ones and conclude the definite ones are preferred.

[X Equestris]

The fact that they have slaves and the fact that the mages are free are two separate issues.

Considering that mages can easily be slaves in Tevinter, they aren't entirely separate issues.

[Ryriena]

As I recall, Vivienne seems to have an opinion on the subject. While most don't like the fact that she's Pro-Circle, she does acknowledge that poor leadership was the reason behind circles going bad. I guess that's one in a row for BioWare on this subject. *chuckles*

I don't like her because my character iq drops when I talk to her to make her look smarter not because she's is pro circle. If that is the cause I would hate Wyane since she is pro circle.

[Alchemist02]

What if one is what leads to the other.

People with inherent power are free. People use that power to assume control. People without power are left behind. People without power suffer.

 

What if it doesn't? 

 

Slavery seems like a largely cultural thing in thedas as opposed to ''I am a mage therefor i am entitled to slaves'' in tervinter slavery is largely the normal because thats how its always been, something dorian points out. 

[TevinterSupremacist]

Considering that mages can easily be slaves in Tevinter, they aren't entirely separate issues.

This even supports my point, slavery is a separate case to mage freedom, if it was just a result of mage supremacy being a direct result of mage freedom, only mundanes would be able to be slaves.

[MisterJB]

They can take another sword if you take theirs away. Swords are easily obtainable. Plus, you can't take their training away. And templars are powerful soldiers, of course they're dangerous to normal people. And possession isn't the only way to corrupt someone, people are inherently flawed and can abuse power, demonic influence or not.

If one Templar tries to attack a village, even if all there are there are untrained peasants, all they have to do is pile up on top of him and they'll overwhelm him.

Connor, eight years old. Redcliff, gone.

 

Just because normal people can be corrupt, doesn't change the fact demonic influence is a reality which makes mages all that much more dangerous and this danger should be taken into account when dealing with them.

A dog can kill you just like a lion can kill you but there's a reason only one of those are not allowed to walk freely in our cities.

 

Assumptions. There is no proof that non-restrictive legal systems are not functionable.

Ok, let's use logic here.

Circle System. Mages are gathered in one place where defenceless peasants are not present. This location is within fortresses hard to escape from. Then, there are trained guards all around that can react to magical problems within minutes.

 

Where is a non restriction system that can guarantee as much safety as the Circle?

 

Besides the majority of laws don't punish hypothetical actions based on how you were born. What you describe as the cornerstone of legal systems isn't what's happening in the cases of how mages are handled in Thedas. There's a difference between legal responsibilities and restriction of bodily autonomy. There are limits laws ought not to pass.

Mages are not being punished, their freedoms are being restricted just as everyone else's.

Their restrictions, as you yourself use the word, involve their freedom of movement because they are just that much more dangerous.

That still doesn't imply a punishment.

 

"It's only logical and fair" [Opinion].

Fair is open to opinion but logic is, by its very nature, objective.

People are inherently dangerous.

The law restricts our freedoms so we can coexist.

Mages are more dangerous than the rest of the population.
Their freedoms are more restricted.

Logic.

[MisterJB]

"What if" Isn't enough. Correlation doesn't equal causation. In one scenario some people might abuse others [and not every mage will do that to every mundane]. In the other scenario all mages are restrained.

You can't compare hypothetical wrongdoings with definite ones and conclude the definite ones are preferred.

It is merely a coincidence that all societies which don't restrict their mages are ruled by them?

Tevinter, Dalish, Rivain, Chasind.

[X Equestris]

This even supports my point, slavery is a separate case to mage freedom, if it was just a result of mage supremacy being a direct result of mage freedom, only mundanes would be able to be slaves.

My point, however, is that mages aren't even truly free in Tevinter. They can be enslaved, and if you are a free mage who is being a thorn in the side of the ruling Magisters, you end up either executed for being a "maleficar" or tranquilized. I would argue that the only mages in Tevinter who are truly free are the those at the top of the Magisterium.

[SnakeCode]

I don't like because my character iq drops when I talk to her to make her look smarter.

Not really. Vivienne is just smarter than you. She's been playing the game her entire adult life. You can be a carta thug or somebody who's only human interaction their whole life has been their own clan. It would be ridiculous if the IQ could outplay her.

 

I do like that one of the main reasons people dislike Vivienne is because she breaks their headcanon that their character is always perfect and right about everything.

[Ryriena]

Ok so what? Rivain is not ruled by Mages they give the seers respect. And Dalish respect Mages and thus are ruled by them because they see them as Keepers? What great logic dude.

So basicly you hate the fact Mages have respect and are not hated in these societies, Narvara also gives respect too thier Mages.

[X Equestris]

Ok so what? Rivain is not ruled by Mages they give the seers respect. And Dalish respect Mages and thus are ruled by them because they see them as Keepers? What great logic dude.
So basicly you hate the fact Mages have respect and are not hated in these societies, Narvara also gives respect too thier Mages.

Seers do have significant influence over Rivaini communities, in ways the Mortalitasi don't. The Keepers do effectively rule the Dalish. Their authority may be controlled by elders, but for the most part the Keeper rules their clan.

[Ryriena]

Not really. Vivienne is just smarter than you. She's been playing the game her entire adult life. You can be a carta thug or somebody who's only human interaction their whole life has been their own clan. It would be ridiculous if the IQ could outplay her.

I do like that one of the main reasons people dislike Vivienne is because she breaks their headcanon that their character is always perfect and right about everything.

I don't hate her because I am right or perfect as a PC, her writing makes it fourm better arrguments against her other than nah your wrong. My character doesn't even explain why she is wrong or give a convincing agrugment that is bad writing to make her look smarter.

[SnakeCode]

I don't hate her because I am right or perfect as a PC, her writing makes it fourm better arrguments against her other than nah your wrong. My character doesn't even explain why she is wrong or give a convincing agrugment that is bad writing to make her look smarter.

And what is it she's wrong about exactly?