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[Poison_Berrie]

Soldiers undergo extensive training and screening process, their abilities are not given randomly to the Hannibal Lecters of the world like magic is.

And then, Templars are especially dangerous to mages because they disrupt mana, not so much to normal people.

Then, their weapons can be taken from them.

Then, they aren't susceptible to possession except in very special cases.

Then, non-mages who, without Templar abilities, can match and defeat mages are above the norm whereas the average mage is more dangerous than the average normal person.

Yeah, Templars have real good screening process. We barely see anyone among them abuse other people...

Also I don't know how well the average mage performs in comparison to a normal person. There seem to be plenty of mages who express not being all that skilled in combat magic or just average in magical prowess. Everything we fight is by definition more dangerous than the average schmuck, by virtue of gameplay related reasons, but that doesn't mean that every mage can easily best a dozen or even 1 average person.

 

 

People in our world and Thedas live under this. Should mages be the exception?

But "we just want equal rights under the law", you'll say. And I'll say, the mages aren't equal. The fact they are more dangerous means their restrictions must be harsher to account for this, it's only logical and fair.

To you perhaps. Probably the same way putting political dissidents in prison and marginalizing their influence seems fair in the eyes of a dictator. After all, they are dangerous to the stability of the country, are they not?

 

And you berate Tevinter for it's class system, bemoaning the second rate citizenship position of normal people. Yet you applaud the treatment of mages as second class citizens. People who should be happy they are taken care of and shouldn't bemoan being demonized, torn away from their families (and have their children torn away from them), treated as less than human and among whom many have suffered at the hands of their "protectors".

Not to mention that being a second class citizen in Tevinter is not just for non-mages, but also for the vast majority of mages.

Aside from that nasty eugenics streak and mage requirement it is not all that dissimilar to the noble families in all the other countries in Thedas (with the exception of the Qun).

[Ryriena]

Seers do have significant influence over Rivaini communities, in ways the Mortalitasi don't. The Keepers do effectively rule the Dalish. Their authority may be controlled by elders, but for the most part the Keeper rules their clan.

You just admitted that the final say goes to the elders of the clan the Keepers are just figure heads or Shamens of the group. Yeah because the seers of Delphi were given authority of many things actually and were respected by political leaders of the time. The seers of Riviani hold the same respect due to the fact they tell the future ect.

[MisterJB]

Ok so what? Rivain is not ruled by Mages they give the seers respect. And Dalish respect Mages and thus are ruled by them because they see them as Keepers? What great logic dude.

So basicly you hate the fact Mages have respect and are not hated in these societies, Narvara also gives respect too thier Mages.

In Rivain's more traditional communities and amongst the Dalish, mages make all the decisions. How is that not being ruled by mages?

 

The fact that I didn't name Nevarra should prove that I don't have an issue with mages being respected and having some influence so long as that is the extent of it.

Nevarra has n entire family of Cassandras ruling it. They'll be fine.

[X Equestris]

You just admitted that the final say goes to the elders of the clan the Keepers are just figure heads or Shamens of the group. Yeah because the seers of Delphi were given authority of many things actually and were respected by political leaders of the time. The seers of Riviani hold the same respect due to the fact they tell the future ect.

The Keepers can be overruled, but that isn't to say they're figureheads. They still make a lot of the decisions. The U.S. president can be overruled, does that make the presidency a figurehead position?

[Ryriena]

The Keepers can be overruled, but that isn't to say they're figureheads. They still make most of the decisions. The U.S. president can be overruled, does that make the presidency a figurehead position?

Yes it does since they can not hold all the power in other words a figure head.

[X Equestris]

Yes it does since they can not hold all the power in other words a figure head.

I don't think you know what figurehead means.

[MisterJB]

The Keepers can be overruled, but that isn't to say they're figureheads. They still make a lot of the decisions. The U.S. president can be overruled, does that make the presidency a figurehead position?

We have never seen the Keepers overruled, in fact.

In DA2, one of the Elder of the clan, someone you'd think would have authority, eventually just chose to leave.

[Ryriena]

Figurehead
n.
1. A carved figure on the prow of a ship.
2. A person given a position of nominal leadership but having no actual authority.

The U.S. president has no actual authority due to the fact Congress is the one to have most of the authority to fourm the laws all the president does is sign laws or veto laws ect.

I don't go by the power grab that is the NDAA or Patriot Act used by George W.H Bush and Obama, as my source on, how the role as a president was seen by the founding fathers.

[X Equestris]

Figurehead
n.
1. A carved figure on the prow of a ship.
2. A person given a position of nominal leadership but having no actual authority.

The U.S. president has no actual authority due to the fact Congress is the one to have most of the authority to fourm the laws all the president does is sign laws or veto laws ect.

I don't go by the power grab the NDAA or Patriot Act used by George W.H Bush and Obama, as my source on, how the role as a president was seen by the founding fathers.

The President has considerable powers. I can whip out the Constitution if you like. They are not a figurehead. Many modern monarchs are figureheads. In the same vein as the President, Keepers have considerable powers.

[MikaelNovasun]

Dalish are a poor example and I am a fan of the Dalish. There are many examples of Dalish following their keepers even when disagreeing with them, and sometimes to the detriment of the clan. Just to throw a few out there, Merrill's clan, the clan in Asunder, the Dalish mage's clan in the hinterlands, and then the clan in DA:O that choose to follow its keeper's decision and continue to make camp in area that was getting them killed or turned into werewolves. The keeper was the only one "tied" to that area.

[Knight of Dane]

No not at all, if anything Inquisiton proved to me that the Mages should actually have a chance at self-government without everyone wanting to brutally murder them.

[Ryriena]

The President has considerable powers. I can whip out the Constitution if you like. They are not a figurehead. Many modern monarchs are figureheads. In the same vein as the President, Keepers have considerable powers.

Do you mean the implied powers or the soft powers that are according to the constitution in Article 3. Which to me many figure heads are given these type of soft or implied powers to make them seem important, when they aren't all that powerful to began with in this time fram.

[MikaelNovasun]

The President can veto laws and bills passed by congress. Without approval from congress the president can send troops into combat, whether or not they stay as active combat troops can later be revoked or re-enforced by congress. How is that a figurehead? The Bristish monarchy is a figurehead. They have no power other then their "preceived" political weight, as is the case with many european monarchies.

[X Equestris]

Do you mean the implied powers or the soft powers that are according to the constitution in Article 3. Which to me many figure heads are given these type of soft or implied powers to make them seem important, when they aren't all that powerful to began with in this time fram.

Commander-In-Chief of the military, veto powers that can shut down an entire legislative agenda, the ability to appoint heads of departments(though it does require congressional approval), the ability to appoint federal judges(again dependent on Congress, but still powerful, as federal judges interpret the law), sign treaties(again dependent on Congress), and grant pardons/reprieves. This leaves out all of the powers various Presidents have accumulated otherwise.

In our history, we have seen the President checked. I can't recall a time when we have seen the Keeper checked by their elders.

[Lord Raijin]

We get tired of having to defend the Mages rights to freedom, and not have to be subjected to abuses to point they snap.

 

It does get tiresome having to explain to the PRO Templar pro Chantry folks on this thread why mages should be free., and not be prisoners over something that they were born with.

[Ranadiel Marius]

It does get tiresome having to explain to the PRO Templar pro Chantry folks on this thread why mages should be free., and not be prisoners over something that they were born with.

Well it isn't peaches and roses to have to continually explain that mages are a danger to those around them and that it is dangerous and irresponsible to nonmages to have no oversight over mages at all (which would be required for absolute freedom).

[Ryriena]

It does get tiresome having to explain to the PRO Templar pro Chantry folks on this thread why mages should be free., and not be prisoners over something that they were born with.

It really does, and to the others I was speaking too I am not going to derail the tread with a U.S poltical decision.

[MikaelNovasun]

Most people who are against complete mage freedom, don't want to see them being held as prisoners. Mages are so far beyond anything that we can think of or equate something to...they are literally a living loaded weapon that may go off without proper training. Wynne was taken to a circle because she accidently and without understanding her own actions nearly sets a another child on fire. It frigthened not only the other child but Wynne as well. To deny that there needs to be a mandatory system in place to train young mages, and police abuses of magic is just absurd.

[Lord Raijin]

The difference is that even a trainer soldier would not have been able to do what Connor, at eight years of age, did without even meaning to.

Go watch Dragon Age: Dawn of the Seeker and see what blood thirsty power hungry mundane is capable of doing.

[Lord Raijin]

The Chantry bombing killed hundreds of people with the express purpose of starting a war. The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki also killed thousands of people, but they ended the war. Ultimately, they saved lives. All the Chantry bombing did was set in motion a war that killed thousands from both sides, and drug plenty of civilians into it. There is really no ground on which to compare them.

 

The Bombing of the Chantry was a result of not starting up a war, but to spread a loud message all the way to the Grand Cathedral that Mages are not going to put up with the Chantries bullshit any longer, and that mages are willing to fight for their freedom.

 

What started up the war was the actions of the Divine. She turned against Lord Seeker Lambert
, and aided the mages in their escape from the White Spire, and to help destroy their phylacteries. After Lord Seeker was aware of her actions caused him to retaliate back by personally writing the Divine a letter by officially annulling the Nevarran Accord, separating both the Templars and the Seekers of Truth from the Chantry. The Chantry no longer had an army, and was left unprotected.

 

The Templars/Seekers begun their attack at the rebel mages.... poof! War starts.

[Lord Raijin]

Well it isn't peaches and roses to have to continually explain that mages are a danger to those around them and that it is dangerous and irresponsible to nonmages to have no oversight over mages at all (which would be required for absolute freedom).

 

Not every mage is going to turn into a big scary abomination

[Ranadiel Marius]

Not every mage is going to turn into a big scary abomination

No but they may accidently set another kid on fire or accidently summon a hoarde of undead becase they don't know how to control their power....then they get murdered by angry town people, or the town people are murdered. One or the other. >.>

[TevinterSupremacist]

If one Templar tries to attack a village, even if all there are there are untrained peasants, all they have to do is pile up on top of him and they'll overwhelm him.

Just because normal people can be corrupt, doesn't change the fact demonic influence is a reality which makes mages all that much more dangerous and this danger should be taken into account when dealing with them.

Where is a non restriction system that can guarantee as much safety as the Circle?

 

Mages are not being punished, their freedoms are being restricted just as everyone else's.

Their restrictions, as you yourself use the word, involve their freedom of movement because they are just that much more dangerous.

 

The law restricts our freedoms so we can coexist.

The templar would still manage to kill several people. Only a quantitative difference between the mage.

 

The difference between corruption and more corruption is again, quantitative.

 

Lack of currently working example isn't an argument, otherwise nothing new would ever be born.

 

I disagree. The law doesn't restrict our freedoms.  Restrictions only apply in that as we are barred from restricting other people's freedoms. In the case of the mages the law preemptively restricts their bodily autonomy. This isn't comparable to the law punishing you if you hit someone.

[MikaelNovasun]

Speed limits restrict my freedom. If I can drive safely at 30 mph over the limit how I am impending on others freedoms? Same with gun laws. If I can safely use a gun, and not harm anyone or myself how is owning one impending on another's freedom? Yet I am required to register and take classes before owning a gun on its safe use.

 

All laws are meant to protect people's freedom and lives. Some of them do restrict freedom to ensure safety and the rights of others.

 

This is typically a western view though. There are laws that do restrict freedoms to the extreme in various countries.

[Lord Raijin]

No but they may accidently set another kid on fire or accidently summon a hoarde of undead becase they don't know how to control their power....then they get murdered by angry town people, or the town people are murdered. One or the other. >.>

That is why the Circle of magi should ONLY be used for a source of education, and not some prison. Who in the right mind would send their mage children to the circle knowing that their sons and daughter will never leave the circle, ever, because once they step foot inside they become the Chantries prisoner.

 

If a mage becomes a problem in society... you don't want them to the circle you instead take them into a mage prison (Aeonar) not the Circle.