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Anyone else unable to feel sympathy for mages after DA:I?


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#351
X Equestris

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The Bombing of the Chantry was a result of not starting up a war, but to spread a loud message all the way to the Grand Cathedral that Mages are not going to put up with the Chantries bullshit any longer, and that mages are willing to fight for their freedom.
 
What started up the war was the actions of the Divine. She turned against Lord Seeker Lambert
, and aided the mages in their escape from the White Spire, and to help destroy their phylacteries. After Lord Seeker was aware of her actions caused him to retaliate back by personally writing the Divine a letter by officially annulling the Nevarran Accord, separating both the Templars and the Seekers of Truth from the Chantry. The Chantry no longer had an army, and was left unprotected.
 
The Templars/Seekers begun their attack at the rebel mages.... poof! War starts.


Anders wanted to tip Meredith over the edge and provoke her into doing something rash, which would ideally end in revolution. The Chantry bombing was just that.
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#352
MisterJB

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The templar would still manage to kill several people. Only a quantitative difference between the mage.

 

The difference between corruption and more corruption is again, quantitative.

 

Lack of currently working example isn't an argument, otherwise nothing new would ever be born.

 

I disagree. The law doesn't restrict our freedoms.  Restrictions only apply in that as we are barred from restricting other people's freedoms. In the case of the mages the law preemptively restricts their bodily autonomy. This isn't comparable to the law punishing you if you hit someone.

Quantity makes all the difference. It's why nukes are much more strictly regulated than 45.s

 

Technically, restricting us from restricting other people's freedom is a restriction. Trust me, I have seen people passionately arguing against the very concept of ownership.

Regardless, the law does tell you what you can't do, what you can't own (such as a tank, for instance, even if all you want it for is to satisfy a passion for history), where you can't go.

The difference between the ones affecting mages and the ones affecting the common citizen are, ironically, quantitative only.



#353
Barquiel

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Not really. Vivienne is just smarter than you. She's been playing the game her entire adult life. You can be a carta thug or somebody who's only human interaction their whole life has been their own clan. It would be ridiculous if the IQ could outplay her.
 
I do like that one of the main reasons people dislike Vivienne is because she breaks their headcanon that their character is always perfect and right about everything.

The reason many people dislike her is because she comes across as incredibly petty and childish for someone who is supposed to be a "master" of the game. The few insights into orlesian politics and the circle system she does offer are rather flippant or downright wrong. And if you don’t agree with her views she throws a fit by...moving furniture.


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#354
TevinterSupremacist

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Quantity makes all the difference. It's why nukes are much more strictly regulated than 45.s

 

Technically, restricting us from restricting other people's freedom is a restriction. Trust me, I have seen people passionately arguing against the very concept of ownership.

Regardless, the law does tell you what you can't do, what you can't own (such as a tank, for instance, even if all you want it for is to satisfy a passion for history), where you can't go.

The difference between the ones affecting mages and the ones affecting the common citizen are, ironically, quantitative only.

Quantity isn't enough. Because if there's only a difference in quantity where the line ought to be drawn is inherently arbitrary. Civilian a is more powerful than b. Civilian c is more powerful than both, because he's a mage. Why is the line between c and b and not between a and b? What if a mage is completely weak and we compare him to, let's say warden commander with templar specialisation? Also, we have to account for corruptibility. Yes, there's demonic possession but it's not the only factor. There are personal goals, environmental influence, nobility, etc, etc. Can you accurately claim that 100% of cases every mage will end up with a higher power+danger combo than any non mage? And why would the limit be drawn at magic and not extreme combat skills? Or insanely convincing personality?

 

Arguments against ownership can be valid, some times. I've seen them too. However, we're talking about bodily autonomy here. Don't restrict any expression of bodily autonomy that doesn't restrict another's autonomy is a much clearer line than arbitrarily deciding what level or power is too much.


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#355
Maniccc

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Not to mention the good of the many comes before the good of the few. 

Collectivist fallacy.  The "many" vs the "one"  There is no such thing as the "many".  All groups are comprised of individuals.  Groups themselves exist only as dynamic and temporary constructs; their composition changes as the individual members come and go.  In other words, groups exist not as real entities like a person, but only as temporary, fluctuating social arrangements.  A group has no rights, only an individual can have rights.

 

To be pro mage or pro templar is ignorant.  You can support some individuals, or oppose some individuals, but to oppose a group is simply to oppose a social arrangement comprised of individuals, which makes no sense whatsoever.  When you lump everyone into a group, you destroy the uniqueness of each person.  To say "I am pro-mage" is to say "I support every mage regardless of behavior."  And the same with the Templars, and the same with the inverse propositions.  To be pro or anti a group is ignorant stereotyping.  And this stance allows you to punish or reward those who have earned neither consequence.  So let's punish someone for a crime someone else committed, because this person is the same; i.e. black, white, male, mage, templar, muslim, etc.

 

Compounding this sort of collectivist ignorance of group supporting or opposing, is the fact that there is nowhere any indication as to how many mages, left uncontrolled, as it were, become blood mages, etc.  We have no data on this that is reliable, only assumption preached to us by the Chantry and the Templars.  Furthermore, these arguments are stupidly and artificially narrowed by failing to think that other possible solutions to the "magic issue" are viable, and perhaps superior to, the Chantry and Templar control and imprisonment of mages.

 

Finally, this very idea that the many are more valuable than the few created the civil war/mage rebellion in the first place.  It creates conflict, and leads to mages rebelling, in smaller and larger numbers.  It inevitably leads to power abuse from those in charge, because there are too many individuals incapable of maintaining professionalism and decency when given power over others.  In other words, the entire proposition that we should coerce some to save more accomplishes the exact opposite of saving anyone, but rather creates more conflict and war.  But then, anyone who even makes a cursory study of history would know that, which makes the whole argument even more absurd.

 

The wise course is to not create conflicts, but to create shared goals.  By making partners, rather than prisoners, out of the mages, you can eliminate conflict creation, and instead create a cooperative atmosphere.  This is exactly what Cass and Leliana think about the Chantry and Templars.  They both know reform is needed, they both lament what these institutions have become.  They were supposed to be helping and supporting, not imprisoning and abusing.  But individuals are not reliable, except in the fact that all are corruptible, and most are herd animals.  Hence, the inevitable abuse of mages by various templars, the corruption of various chantry members even at high levels of authority, and the mindless following of the abusers and corrupted leaders by many.  Viv's desire to rebuild the Circle system is stupid: she can only reset the clock on the next mage rebellion this way.


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#356
MisterJB

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It suddenly feels very tumblrey in here.



#357
Ryriena

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In other words, this whole debate can be conduled by the Stanford Prision Experiment. Which proves that all humans can also become corrupt if put in charge of someone.

http://en.m.wikipedi...ison_experiment
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#358
Ashagar

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There are flaws in that study as pointed out by its critics. Its food for thought but shouldn't be taken as gospel.



#359
MisterJB

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In other words, this whole debate can be conduled by the Stanford Prision Experiment. Which proves that all humans can also become corrupt if put in charge of someone.

http://en.m.wikipedi...ison_experiment

Ironically, what that study proves is that power corrupts.

Who has special powers again?



#360
Ryriena

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Ironically, what that study proves is that power corrupts.
Who has special powers again?

The templars in this case since after all the Mages are powerless against them.

#361
Ryriena

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There are flaws in that study as pointed out by its critics. Its food for thought but shouldn't be taken as gospel.

Oh whatever people disliked this idea that humans can actually become abusers themselves look to our now police force.

#362
MisterJB

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Quantity isn't enough. Because if there's only a difference in quantity where the line ought to be drawn is inherently arbitrary. Civilian a is more powerful than b. Civilian c is more powerful than both, because he's a mage. Why is the line between c and b and not between a and b? What if a mage is completely weak and we compare him to, let's say warden commander with templar specialisation? Also, we have to account for corruptibility. Yes, there's demonic possession but it's not the only factor. There are personal goals, environmental influence, nobility, etc, etc. Can you accurately claim that 100% of cases every mage will end up with a higher power+danger combo than any non mage? And why would the limit be drawn at magic and not extreme combat skills? Or insanely convincing personality?

 

Arguments against ownership can be valid, some times. I've seen them too. However, we're talking about bodily autonomy here. Don't restrict any expression of bodily autonomy that doesn't restrict another's autonomy is a much clearer line than arbitrarily deciding what level or power is too much.

The line was drawn in the course of over two thousand years of Thedosian history that placed normals and mages competing for power when not actively killing each other.

The line is also drawn on what is and isn't possible to accomplish. We can't keep all peoples safe at all times but we can isolate the mages and thus reduce the danger as has been proven.

 

Also, it's worth noting that TWoT has already established mages with extremely low level of magical abilities are allowed to be free but will still be watched.



#363
MisterJB

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The templars in this case since after all the Mages are powerless against them.

Blood magic.

 

Also, let's not avoid the point. You placed a study that proved people with power will abuse it. And then you defend placing peasants near people who are living flame-throwers who can control other people's minds. And you do not see abuse of power in the future?



#364
Ryriena

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Blood magic.

Also, let's not avoid the point. You placed a study that proved people with power will abuse it. And then you defend placing peasants near people who are living flame-throwers who can control other people's minds. And you do not see abuse of power in the future?

No I don't since they are not in control of said people now. Oh so blood magic, not all mage know blood magic sweety.

#365
MisterJB

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No I don't since they are not in control of said people now.

Ok, the issue was not that they were in control.

The issue was that they had power.

Mages have power.

"Do what I say or you'll get a fireball in the face. Oh wait, no need I can just control your mind".



#366
TevinterSupremacist

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The line was drawn in the course of over two thousand years of Thedosian history that placed normals and mages competing for power when not actively killing each other.

The line is also drawn on what is and isn't possible to accomplish. We can't keep all peoples safe at all times but we can isolate the mages and thus reduce the danger as has been proven.

Deciding based on history as opposed to innovation is a matter of preference. Not a logical conclusion. If anything, one could argue that because of the heated conflict history magic has had in Thedas, Thedosians mundanes can't be trusted to police mages, especially since anti-magic femjesus mantra is being shoved in their heads.

We can also choose to keep the mage free and have risk of abominations as the side effect. So far all you've shown is your preference, not a conclusion.



#367
Maiafay

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I played on the Templar team one time. One. Time. It felt wrong, like I was some sort of traitor. Both sides are doing stupid things, but the templars IMO are the ones creating most of the problems. But the root of the issue is the Chantry and that damn "magic must serve man" verse.

Reminds me of religion in our world where one verse in the Bible can be interpreted many ways, and everyone always finds a way to make it "fit" what they want. Want to tell women they can't vote because it's "god's will?" Go to this book, verse such and such. Want to support slavery? Go here and read this verse. Want to prove homosexuality is wrong? Go here and here. Then those same verses are now "explained" to mean something totally different. Who is right? Anyone?

This is why Tevinter sees it one way, and the South sees it the opposite. I'm more on the Tevinter side, where I think the magic must serve man, not rule over him means don't allow magic to control you. You control it. Whereas the South is like, "yeah, that mean we force mages into circles and never let them breed"....what? Where the heck did they get that from?

After DAI, I'm still very pro-mage, even more so. Hell, I was still pro-mage after DA2 even though I was disappointed in the mages - but I also understood their desperation. I just wish they could have been the "better" person and let the Templars look like idiots instead.
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#368
Ryriena

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Ok, the issue was not that they were in control.
The issue was that they had power.
Mages have power.
"Do what I say or you'll get a fireball in the face. Oh wait, no need I can just control your mind".

Really, you think all Mages would do something like this is what wrong. Since this leds to the abuse of people because you think they already guilty of a crime. In fact, that alone can back fire badly look at places like Italy with the Amanda Knox case, when the DNA of another man was found all over her and his finger prints but you know, what the Prosecutor knew better and tired her three times for a crime she did not commit. It ruined her family financially, and made Italy into a laughing stock along with Britian, whom pushed for her prosecution. In this case you have the prosecutors mentality, that "I am right and everyone and the evidence is wrong".

The terms "Innocent until proven beyond a reasonable doubt guilty" is something I think should be given to Mages in all cases. Those that misuse their powers that have been proven guilty must be sent to Aneor the Mages prision like any normal criminal.

#369
Hair Serious Business

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Anders wanted to tip Meredith over the edge and provoke her into doing something rash, which would ideally end in revolution. The Chantry bombing was just that.

That has another name it is called terrorism!



#370
Ryriena

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That has another name it is called terrorism!


Not really, I would call it a political assaissition but that's just my opinion on the matter. The Arc Duke Ferdinand death that started WW1 would fit this bill a lot more.

#371
X Equestris

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That has another name it is called terrorism!


Completely agreed.

Not really, I would call it a political assaissition but that's just my opinion on the matter. The Arc Duke Ferdinand death that started WW1 would fit this bill a lot more.


Ironically, that assassination was carried out by a Bosnian terrorist group, the Black Hand.

#372
Lord Raijin

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Anders wanted to tip Meredith over the edge and provoke her into doing something rash, which would ideally end in revolution. The Chantry bombing was just that.

 

Meredith was already over the edge as it is according to Varrics narration. Her insanity that was caused by the Lyrium side effect was overall harming others around her... especially the mages. Sometimes you need to take drastic measurements by giving your enemy what they want to finally put an end to such insanity.  Elthina was a heavy chain that was a burden to the city. Even some of mundanes were secretly sending letters to the Divine asking for a replacement because she was just that incompetent as a Grand Cleric.

 

The situation with the mages and the Templars reminds me so much like the mutants in X-men.

 

 

Do you seriously think that Magneto was born with an antagonistic stage of mind? No. He was created with them through systematic abuse. You can push a man so far until he finally gets fed up.

 

Remember the scene from A Christmas story where where Ralphie finally beats the crap outta the schools bully?

 

Theirs so much that a man can put-up with until his patients are no more.


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#373
Ryriena

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Completely agreed.


Ironically, that assassination was carried out by a Bosnian terrorist group, the Black Hand.

lol kind of irony here xd

#374
Hair Serious Business

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Not really, I would call it a political assaissition but that's just my opinion on the matter. The Arc Duke Ferdinand death that started WW1 would fit this bill a lot more.

Killing innocents and blowing up chantry for your own agenda with 0 regret or remorse that later will start war is terrorism! 

And Anders is terrorist who with his rash act of stupidity started war not to mention all people and perhaps even little kids that died in that explosion because you never know who was else was in Chantry when it went boom! It would be political assassination if Anders killed just Meridith,blew up her templars and etc. but he killed one Grand Cleric with all innocent people in Chantry that had nothing to do with problems that happened in city...Elthina did had something with it but all these peoples that died in explosion? Theirs only fault is being in Chantry at that time!

So once again harming innocent peoples for your own beliefs,agenda or etc. is just pure terrorism not political assassination! 



#375
Hair Serious Business

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Ironically, that assassination was carried out by a Bosnian terrorist group, the Black Hand.

Gavrilo Princip was one that killed prince Archduke Franz Ferdinand and his wife while they were riding in car as I recall and that later ended up with first with ultimatum however Serbia didn't agreed to once condition of ultimatum and as such WW1 started.

(Don't study Architecture in Europe people...history is just slave-driver ._.)


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