515 réponses à ce sujet

[thesuperdarkone2]

You know the irony about all of this? Is that none of you people can write up a constructive criticism regarding to how Anders could of done things differently.

 

1. Speaking with Elthina is meaningless and a waste of time.

2. Anders could not reason with Meredith because its impossible.

3. If the mundane letters to the Divine asking for a replacement of the Grand Cleric wasn't significant enough to drawl some attention... Anders letter to the Divine would be useless as well.

4. Ander's did not have the privilege to speak with the Viscount of Kirkwall regarding to the dire situation between the mages and the templars because the Viscount is dead... decapitated by the Arishok. Meredith was ruling the entire city at the time.

 

So tell me what could Anders do differently? Orsino tried getting the public attention by educating the public that mages are not as dangerous as the Templars preach about.

 

If Orsino method failed then Anders had no chance of doing the same... not without getting captured by the Templar's.

Don't forget how if the Templars didn't crack down on mages after Kirkwall, the mages likely wouldn't have felt the need to rebel and there wouldn't have been a rebellion. If Lambert wasn't Meredith 2.0, the rebellion likely wouldn't have occurred.

[BountyhunterGER]

I wonder, if everyone was a mage, would the argument about mages being guilty still apply? Guess sacrifices are okay when you are not the group making the sacrifice. Would pro-templars agree with what occurs if they were mages and thus had to be put in a Circle with all its restrictions.

 

It's funny that in Thedas since being a mage is random -  everybody could be a mage in that world - even the biggest mage hater here in the forum could be a mage himself in that world and I really wonder if "lock them all up" or "kill them all" are still suggestions he would use.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Well, it's certainly not going to earn you friends. Given the Mage position is "we want freedom", his targeting of Elthina and the Chantry (and anyone who may have been inside) creates an us vs. them mentality. You're trying to take on the Templars and the Chantry and your declaration of War involves blowing up a building of religious significance? Involving a woman, who while misguided, was far more tolerant and understanding of Mages compared to the average citizen? 

Elthina outright says she wouldn't want to be locked in the Gallows. So she knows that the Gallows is a horrible place and still she does nothing. She doesn't even tell the Templars to say not rape mages or not to abuse them but she doesn't do anything. If she was more active, a lot of this mess could have been avoided. Even Insane Meredith backed down when Elthina told her to. Characters in Asunder and The Masked Empire reference how Elthina doing nothing created the conflict.

[thesuperdarkone2]

It's funny that in Thedas since being a mage is random -  everybody could be a mage in that world - even the biggest mage hater here in the forum could be a mage himself in that world and I really wonder if "lock them all up" or "kill them all" are still suggestions he would use.

Yeah when you consider that apparently the mage haters act as though they wouldn't be on the receiving end. Would they still be like that if they were the ones being targeted? 

[Hair Serious Business]

Elthina outright says she wouldn't want to be locked in the Gallows. So she knows that the Gallows is a horrible place and still she does nothing. She doesn't even tell the Templars to say not rape mages or not to abuse them but she doesn't do anything. If she was more active, a lot of this mess could have been avoided. Even Insane Meredith backed down when Elthina told her to. Characters in Asunder and The Masked Empire reference how Elthina doing nothing created the conflict.

Once again leads as to point in which where Elthina is one who did needed killing but not all innocent people who perished with her.

Killing one Elthina would be act of both war and revolution but whole blow Chantry thing is just pure act of terrorism.

[Il Divo]

Elthina outright says she wouldn't want to be locked in the Gallows. So she knows that the Gallows is a horrible place and still she does nothing. She doesn't even tell the Templars to say not rape mages or not to abuse them but she doesn't do anything. If she was more active, a lot of this mess could have been avoided. Even Insane Meredith backed down when Elthina told her to. Characters in Asunder and The Masked Empire reference how Elthina doing nothing created the conflict.

 

So she's incompetent. So we murdered a well-known political figure, via magic, plus any/all innocent bystanders. And it was done by a semi-abomination. And this is how we're going to convince the world that Mages are safe and can be trusted to interact with us in day to day life, when your average citizen is utterly terrified of magic. 

[Lord Raijin]

Quoting wiki since most in here can't tell difference between act of war,act of revolution and act of terrorism:

 

Terrorism is commonly defined as violent acts (or threat of violent acts) intended to create fear (terror), perpetrated for a religious, political, or ideological goal, and which deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants (e.g., neutral military personnel or civilians). 

 

Sounds exactly what the Chantry does. Thank you for that sweet definition to prove my point The Dalish are force to evict their mage clan members because too many would draw the attention of Templars because they fear them. Mages who refuse to obey the laws of the Chantry are branded as an apostate, and the chantry causes terror upon them for not abiding to their teachings. A viscount who no longer wants templars in his city is politically Terrorize by the Chantry.... He is later arrested and poisoned in his cell... how sweet is that!

 

Terrorism - The Chantry.

[Hair Serious Business]

Sounds exactly what the Chantry does. Thank you for that sweet definition to prove my point The Dalish are force to evict their mage clan members because too many would draw the attention of Templars because they fear them. Mages who refuse to obey the laws of the Chantry are branded as an apostate, and the chantry causes terror upon them for not abiding to their teachings. A viscount who no longer wants templars in his city is politically Terrorize by the Chantry.... He is later arrested and poisoned in his cell... how sweet is that!

 

Terrorism - The Chantry.

You did read part that says "killing none-combatants" is act of terrorism right? Because just remember that back when Chantry exploded Viscount was long dead,Meridith and her templar order weren't in it,Elthna was true...but HELLO SO WERE THE INNOCENT PEOPLE AS WELL! Chantry is terrorist I agree but so is Anders! 

[X Equestris]

If you're talking about Viscount Threnhold, he attacked the Templars, so I see his fall from power as perfectly justified.

And for the record, I'm pro-Mage.

[Lord Raijin]

He then could have killed Meridith! He could have blown templars with who he does hold grudge!

He should have not blown Chantry and all innocent people who were in it! I'm sick to my stomach at how many innocents died in there,how many kids were in there! So whatever the f*ck Anders tried to achive,killing so many innocents I don't see justification good enough to go and murder people who never done anything to you! And I'm amazed how you find his act of terrorism justified and his reason good!!!??? Sorry I know terrorist in history who did had good intentions and reasons though their acts were still not justified and Ander's act is out of no where for no good reason at all! He attacked Chantry instead of Gallows that was seat of his true problems!? 

So on your question "What he could have done differently?" once again I will say if he had to blow something up then he should have blown templar's order together with Meridith! Chantry full of just common folks? TERRORISM!

 

Tell me How could Anders had killed Meredith in the heartland of Templar headquarters? How can he have "blown" the Templar? Are you suggesting that he blow up the Circle? Why and how? Why should Anders take the lives of innocent mages when the Chantry is right there... unguarded! Oh yeah if it were innocent mages you would have no problem with Anders killing them, right?

 

 

The cocky Grand Cleric got what she deserved.

[Lord Raijin]

 

The chantry being blown up makes a perfect background wallpaper picture for 2 warden apostates.

 

Burn Pro templar burn! Let that photo eat you right up!

[X Equestris]

Tell me How could Anders had killed Meredith in the heartland of Templar headquarters? How can he have "blown" the Templar? Are you suggesting that he blow up the Circle? Why and how? Why should Anders take the lives of innocent mages when the Chantry is right there... unguarded! Oh yeah if it were innocent mages you would have no problem with Anders killing them, right?
 

 
The cocky Grand Cleric got what she deserved.

If Anders only wanted to kill the Grand Cleric, he could have walked right in and done it. He needed something bigger to provoke Meredith into Annuling the Circle.

[Lord Raijin]

If Anders only wanted to kill the Grand Cleric, he could have walked right in and done it. He needed something bigger to provoke Meredith into Annuling the Circle.

 A **** bomb did the job right Anders wanted to take care of a problem without it being a suicidal mission.

[Hair Serious Business]

I will tell you this.

The day I agree that INNOCENT LIVES should be taken for someone else's mistakes...that day I will say "PRAISE TERRORISM AND TERRORISTS BECAUSE TERRORISM IS ONLY WAY" that same day I will say "Anders you cool bro!"...

Until that day which I doubt will ever come Anders is and will be just terrorist scum for me for who even death is just reward for what he has done!

---Case closed---

[MisterJB]

How about Anders doesn't blow up anyone?

[X Equestris]

A **** bomb did the job right Anders wanted to take care of a problem without it being a suicidal mission.

And yet he's perfectly willing to let you kill him afterwards.

[TevinterSupremacist]

I was pointing out the fact societies in Thedas have developed along these lines which have created distinct groups based upon that genetic factor which is magic. Such realities must be taken into account if one intends to decide what is best for Thedas.

The possibility some non-mages might be more dangerous than mages or more corrupt does not change the fact mages are a threat that needs to be contained. Therefore, even if dealing with mages won't make the wold 100% safe, it will make it safer.

 

Yes, continuing established bigotry is within Thedas' best interest. Of course.

It goes to show that you're fully arbitrary. The system you propose isn't interested in preventing danger, but in putting mages down. If it was interested in keeping people safe it'd restrict based on the threat level an individual has, not on magic alone. You can't say "I restrict mages because they're dangerous" then go "I  won't restrict this individual who's more dangerous than a mage". The argument you offer for why mages are to be restricted is the danger they bring to the world, if you let out other dangers slip away then you never were about restricting danger, you were about restricting mages. Naturally, you won't be able to catch everyone who's dangerous, but if you don't try to catch everyone who's dangerous then you were never about danger to begin with.

 

This is without even touching if it is potential for danger that should be punished ,or only actual acts of infamy.

[BountyhunterGER]

Quoting wiki since most in here can't tell difference between act of war,act of revolution and act of terrorism:

 

Terrorism is commonly defined as violent acts (or threat of violent acts) intended to create fear (terror), perpetrated for a religious, political, or ideological goal, and which deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants (e.g., neutral military personnel or civilians). 

 

Was it really to create fear? The intention was to start a war for mage freedom (not saying blowing up the chantry was good, but the term 'terrorism' seems inaccurate.

And where it really Anders' intentions to kill hundrets of innocents? It was his intention to do something good for the mages (after he got convinced by justice to care for them). In order to help the mages he offered himself as a host to justice and justice became corrupted by his hatred. After that Anders hardly had a chance not to

do what Vengeance wanted him to do (if you rival him there is not just one scene where he is about to tell hawke that what he did in the chantry could still be stopped - resulting in vengeance taking over and keeping him away from preventing these innocent deaths).

And it's blowing up the chantry and not just Meredith because Vengeance wanted to have revenge for the wrong things done to mages and because he wanted to start a war (and to start a war a single assassination may not be enaugh - he wanted to make sure).

[thesuperdarkone2]

Was it really to create fear? The intention was to start a war for mage freedom (not saying blowing up the chantry was good, but the term 'terrorism' seems inaccurate.

And where it really Anders' intentions to kill hundrets of innocents? It was his intention to do something good for the mages (after he got convinced by justice to care for them). In order to help the mages he offered himself as a host to justice and justice became corrupted by his hatred. After that Anders hardly had a chance not to

do what Vengeance wanted him to do (if you rival him there is not just one scene where he is about to tell hawke that what he did in the chantry could still be stopped - resulting in vengeance taking over and keeping him away from preventing these innocent deaths).

And it's blowing up the chantry and not just Meredith because Vengeance wanted to have revenge for the wrong things done to mages and because he wanted to start a war (and to start a war a single assassination may not be enaugh - he wanted to make sure).

It's also funny that if you side with the mages and make Leliana divine, Anders' actions do wind up giving mages their freedom.

[Lord Raijin]

I will tell you this.

The day I agree that INNOCENT LIVES should be taken for someone else's mistakes...that day I will say "PRAISE TERRORISM AND TERRORISTS BECAUSE TERRORISM IS ONLY WAY" that same day I will say "Anders you cool bro!"...

Until that day which I doubt will ever come Anders is and will be just terrorist scum for me for who even death is just reward for what he has done!

---Case closed---

 

No offense bro but....How many times are you going to say terrorism?

[Ashagar]

If a mage simply murdered the grand cleric that would get dealt with and things would business as usual. If a mage Abomination murders hundreds of people including the Grand Cleric turns the people even further against mages hopefully causing a war in which mages either win or all die. He wanted everyone to turn on the mages even more so than what happened before, he wanted the rite of annulment to be brought against the Kirkwall circle.

 

In my rare extreme cynical moments I think he was hoping that the mages would win and create a southern Tevinter Imperium style mage rule.

[MisterJB]

Yes, continuing established bigotry is within Thedas' best interest. Of course.

It goes to show that you're fully arbitrary. The system you propose isn't interested in preventing danger, but in putting mages down. If it was interested in keeping people safe it'd restrict based on the threat level an individual has, not on magic alone. You can't say "I restrict mages because they're dangerous" then go "I  won't restrict this individual who's more dangerous than a mage". The argument you offer for why mages are to be restricted is the danger they bring to the world, if you let out other dangers slip away then you never were about restricting danger, you were about restricting mages. Naturally, you won't be able to catch everyone who's dangerous, but if you don't try to catch everyone who's dangerous then you were never about danger to begin with.

 

This is without even touching if it is potential for danger that should be punished ,or only actual acts of infamy.

Is the police force ineffectual if they deal with criminals but not diseases? Different services within society deal with different threats to the population. Or, ideally, that is what happens.

[Lord Raijin]

[Hair Serious Business]

*snip*

Anders did had good intentions because he wanted to free mages,he had good intentions for wanting to free mages from templar's abuses and I was on his side all time in DA2 right until moment when he out of nowhere just makes Chantry and all people with it go BOOM!

He didn't saved mages with it he sentenced them to instant death for doing it! All people who once agreed that mages should be free started to despise mages! Mages who were in circles were force to flee for their lives because now everyone wanted their head for stupidity of one man! And what was first thing Varric said about Anders that he fled with mages but later he had to flee from even mages because even other mages wanted to kill Anders for making them living like refugees. Wanted or no point is with what he has done he has endangered lives of thousands! Many terrorist in past I repeat never wanted for things to get way too much out of hand and yet they did and history still proclaimed them to be terrorist no matter what intentions or reasons they might have had!

Pro-mage run is ok,I've done these too...but agreeing about stuff such as "Anders was right to blow Chantry and people in it because it is only way" only proofs one thing and that is that people who think as these approve of terrorism which makes me sick. Still as I said for me whole Anders case is closed and I would rather not keep discussing him.

Instead it is better to start discussing Merril    or even Tevinter magisters,Alexius,Corypheus,Fiona...whoever just let's move away from whole Anders case because I don't want to bring any discussion and flame war over terrorism in my thread.We are here to discuss mages as people you feel sympathy or no for...we are not here to discuss "Was Ander terrorist or no" whoever wants to discuss that can go and make their own thread about and take it there.

So once again Anders case closed! Don't want to see any more discussion about terrorists or whatever in this thread so get back to the topic!

[BountyhunterGER]

It's also funny that if you side with the mages and make Leliana divine, Anders' actions do wind up giving mages their freedom.

So much fun in Thedas, eh?

And while I approve of mage freedom (and the Leliana ending - always get her..) I still wish there had been better ways to achieve it.