515 réponses à ce sujet

[Ashagar]

As I said before I feel sorry for the ordinary mages and Templars and of course the children with both factions(everyone always forgets about the Templar trainees most of whom start as or are small children). Its a pity that all their sane and reasonable leaders on both sides were killed at the conclave or murdered afterwards by corypheus's agents(Oh Knight-Vigilant we knew thee not).

 

What I don't feel sorry for its the surviving leadership of the mages and Templars though thankfully you don't end up with the surviving leadership of the Templars.

[Darkly Tranquil]

Nope. The mages might be fools, but the Templars are still bullies.

[SnakeCode]

As I said before I feel sorry for the ordinary mages and Templars and of course the children with both factions(everyone always forgets about the Templar trainees most of whom start as or are small children). Its a pity that all their sane and reasonable leaders on both sides were killed at the conclave or murdered afterwards by corypheus's agents(Oh Knight-Vigilant we knew thee not).

 

What I don't feel sorry for its the surviving leadership of the mages and Templars though thankfully you don't end up with the surviving leadership of the Templars.

This, and at least the templars stand against the corrupt leaders (once they reveal themselves to be so) whilst the mages do nothing. Some have minor grumbles but even then they just stick their heads in the sand with the rest of them.

[Barquiel]

As I said before I feel sorry for the ordinary mages and Templars and of course the children with both factions(everyone always forgets about the Templar trainees most of whom start as or are small children). Its a pity that all their sane and reasonable leaders on both sides were killed at the conclave or murdered afterwards by corypheus's agents(Oh Knight-Vigilant we knew thee not).
 
What I don't feel sorry for its the surviving leadership of the mages and Templars though thankfully you don't end up with the surviving leadership of the Templars.

I agree that both sides had flawed leaders, however the templars had far more bad rank and file troops than did the mages...that's why my sympathy for them is very limited (the children were innocent of course). They went on ethnic cleansing rampages for months (the circle in Rivain for example)...following bad order after bad order and knowing full well that what they were doing was illegal in the eyes of the chantry (and all this happened before the red lyrium thing). I have some respect for templars who left the order, like Lysette or Rylen. But the rest? Not really...

[AlexMBrennan]

This does somewhat crucially depend on how much you are going to trust the entity that single-handedly caused the oblivion anonymous rift crisis. If you are willing to take his word and believe that demons are really just misunderstood and trying to help then I have a bridge to sell

[Johnsen1972]

I lost most of the symphathy for mages after DA2... its Anders fault

[thesuperdarkone2]

I wonder how much of the mage hate is just Fiona hate that is generalized to the entire mage side. I wonder if it was someone else who was the leader like Rhys or the situation was changed so that the envy demon replaced Fiona who then forced the mages to ally with the Venatori and the Templars willingly helped the Red Templars and knowingly took red lyrium to kill mages, would mage hate remain the same?

[Cypher0020]

Well my new human mage is torn about the situation.............

 

she can't agree with Viv, things caaaaaaaaaan't go back to the way they were before, but she thinks Fiona is an absolute moron for going to TEVINTER! Yes, I know options were limited, but Fereldan already gave them protection! 

 

So, in this run, she's conscripting their butts for their own protection it seems 

[Ashagar]

I wonder how much of the mage hate is just Fiona hate that is generalized to the entire mage side. I wonder if it was someone else who was the leader like Rhys or the situation was changed so that the envy demon replaced Fiona who then forced the mages to ally with the Venatori and the Templars willingly helped the Red Templars and knowingly took red lyrium to kill mages, would mage hate remain the same?

 

You'd also have to have the Templars not fight to the death against the red Templars which they do regardless of the inquisition showing up, have the grand enchanter and possibly other leaders murdered like the knight-vigilant to keep the envy demon from being revealed, have something horrible similar to what happened to the tranquil under the mages care. Also you seem to be assuming they everyone who can't bring themselves to side with the mages hates them which I certainly don't.

[Lord Raijin]

After Dragon Age Inquisition I seem to have gone into a neutral stand of point regarding to the Templar’s vs Mages debate. I still consider myself as a pro Mage and will always be a mage only player regardless.

 

The situation back in Redcliff does not in anyway change my interpretation of mages. Fiona might have been a Grand Enchanter, but her leadership stinks to sky heaven. Even the wardens no longer wanted her. She lead her mages into a dark path just as Samson did when he lead his Templar’s into a dark path of infecting his lower ranked Templar's to the madness of red lyirum thus turning them into these walking monsters.

 

What Dragon Age Inquisition taught me is that corrupted mages and Templar's can be equally dangerous. The corruption of Knight-Commander Meredith was the cause of the total destruction of the city as she was able to summon walking statues and capable of leaping up into the air like a super human.

 

At the end Mages and the Templars are equally victimized by the Chantry. The Chantry's (prior to DA:I) laws indicates that every southern part of Thedas mages must be locked away in some tower under Chantry supervision. If the mage refuse their teachings they're branded as an apostate, and the chantry would then send their dogs (The Templar's) to sniff them out, and kill them. Templar's are forced servitude of the Chantry. They're fed highly addictive compound just to enhance the ability to disable a mages mana. Without getting their lyrium fix a Templar becomes extremely vulnerable, and unstable due to the withdrawals. The Chantry knows this, but still feds their Templar's this dangerous compound because it's leverage that they have against them. They're as much as a prisoner of the Chantry as the mages.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I find it rather disturbing that someone should "prove that they are worthy of freedom". Freedom is not a "noble ideal" like Fenris says, it is one of our fundamental human rights. It doesn't matter that you think I am potentially dangerous, I have the right to be free and I don't have to prove anything to you. In a trial, it's the prosecution that has the burden of proof, not the defense.

 

Humans as we know them do not have the power to light cities on fire, with or without trying.

 

If we did, then "fundamental human rights" would look very different than what we know them to be now.

 

And, quite a few mages recognize this.

 

Plus, did you actually pay attention to what Fiona and Alexius say during the dialogue with the Inquisitor? The monarchy of Ferelden gave Redcliffe to the rebel mages as a safe sanctuary, but the Templars pursued them even across the border and were about to attack them. Fiona was terrified to see her fellow mages slaughtered by the Templars, that's why she resorted to an alliance with the magisters from Tevinter. It is even reported on the DA wiki if you want to check it out by yourself. It is called self-defense. If someone is attacking you, you're risking your life, and you find a knife lying around and use it to defend yourself, it doesn't matter if you wound of even kill your assailant. It is self-defense. It doesn't make you a murderer.
Not to mention that Fiona decided to ally with Alexius, not all the rebel mages. On the contrary, if you speak to them, for the most part they disapprove of this decision. But for all their life they have been subjected to an authority who told them what to do and when to do it, how can you expect them to suddenly be all autonomous and determined? It's obvious they will follow Fiona, who was First Enchanter and leads them by default.

 

Can we note the huge double-standard at work here? When mages follow bad orders/leaders, well, please do not think badly of them they were just in a bad situation and only the leadership need be blamed. When Templars do the same, hah, see how bad they are?! All of them must be cracked down on!

 

If the first thing mages do with their freedom is blindly follow a bad leader, why should anyone want them free? What choice did they have, you ask? What choice do Templars have? If they disobey orders, they likely get thrown in a military tribunal and severely punished. If they'd followed the order, they may still be free afterwards. If Templars should accept that consequence, what is the mages' excuse? Not like anyone is going to arrest them for defecting. Hell, they even have a choice of leader! Vivienne may not reflect all their views, but she won't lead them into hopeless war and force you to choose between death and Tevinter slavery.

 

Perhaps they should have thought this out better before they decided to recklessly break away from the Chantry. If their freedom was worth dying for in the first place, then they should accept the fate they chose for themselves rather than ally with Tevinter. If it was not, they should not have broken away.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Here's another viewpoint of the alliance. Originally the mages thought Tevinter would help them fight the Templars and give them resources but the Venatori decided to overthrow Teagan without the mages' approval. This ensures that the mages are disliked for betraying an ally and therefore they have to remain with the Venatori who are now the only ones who are offering protection from the masses. Thus, if the mages left the alliance, they would be punished for the Venatori's actions. This exact thing happens after you defeat the Venatori if you side with the mages where the Ferelden monarch exiles the mages for the Venatori's actions. Thus, the mages are stuck between a rock and a hard place: either they leave the alliance and thus face the fury of angry masses and the Ferelden monarch or remain protected by the Venatori who have unsavory plans for them.

[Lord Raijin]

Humans as we know them do not have the power to light cities on fire, with or without trying.

 

If we did, then "fundamental human rights" would look very different than what we know them to be now.

 

And, quite a few mages recognize this.

 

Humans from the real world can develop the technology to do the same exact things that a mage from Dragon Age can do. We humans invented guns to kill each other, and we developed bombs to cause total destruction yet we cherish the fundamental human rights of everyone, both of high intellect and those with low. Hell the ACLU is everywhere... even in our prisons.

[Melca36]

I lost most of the symphathy for mages after DA2... its Anders fault

 

So I guess you think its alright for Templars to abuse mages?

 

Heres a little reminder...and it was not just happening Kirkwall. Chantry sisters discussed it happening in other Circles outside of Haven in Inquisition.

 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Humans from the real world can develop the technology to do the same exact things that a mage from Dragon Age can do. We humans invented guns to kill each other, and we developed bombs to cause total destruction yet we cherish the fundamental human rights. Hell ther ACLU is everywhere... even in our prisons.

 

Yes, and naturally, those things are not free to exist everywhere and anywhere (but are subject to restrictions, as are the people who possess them).

 

So it is with the mages. They are basically walking nukes.

[The Baconer]

Your making assumptions from what little evidence we get into the workings of the Templars and the seekers that over see them which isn't helped as you only see it from the outside and not within either the seekers or the Templars.

 

The Seekers were worthless. With them buried we can get the Circle system back on track the right way.

 

 

Someone needs to open an history book. Without Drakon's army, there wouldn't be a Chantry to begin with.

 

Hessarian almost a century earlier, you mean.

[Ophir147]

So I guess you think its alright for Templars to abuse mages?

 

Heres a little reminder...and it was not just happening Kirkwall. Chantry sisters discussed it happening in other Circles outside of Haven in Inquisition.

 

 

 

That Karras sure is a piece of work, right? And logically, by extension, all templars ever?

[thesuperdarkone2]

That Karras sure is a piece of work, right? And logically, by extension, all templars ever?

Cole's banter with Cass shows that the Spire which Viviennne says is so great has them imply the Templars raped mages and threatened to make them Tranquil and make them sex slaves like Alrik or say they are blood mages. As much as Vivienne likes to claim Kirkwall was an exception, the abuses there were not limited to Kirkwall. 

[Poison_Berrie]

The Avvar apparently put their mages through a harrowing like process too, and that is completely without Templars.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Avvar had a harrowing like process for non-mages to. Probably involving some wild beast(s) in place of a demon.

 

Humans as we know them do not have the power to light cities on fire, with or without trying.

 

If we did, then "fundamental human rights" would look very different than what we know them to be now.

 

And, quite a few mages recognize this.

Actually they do. Candles, stoves and open fires where a real danger back in the day and city planning and construction didn't really take fire safety into account. 

 

A single mage can't light a city on fire with just a thought. A single mage can start a fire, which in a city will probably spread. But so can an inattentive person or a pyromaniac.

[Uccio]

The biggest problem free mages going "Tevinter" is that the moment they pledge allegiance to the Imperium Fereldan should either banish them or attack them. Fiona could not "give" the mages to Tevinter since they are all practically citizens of fereldan, all of them.

[Korva]

I didn't feel sympathy for them to begin with. It always puzzled me that people on here decided to champion the mages when they have it so much better off than so many other groups. Unlike your average serf and especially the city elves they are afforded many luxuries. Free education, good food, a warm bed and a roof over their head every night. Yes the circle has it's nastier aspects as well, but they still have it far better than those outside the circle who aren't fortunate enough to be born into nobility. They don't have to fear starvation, dying alone in the cold, disease (due to magic,) not having enough gold to pay for food, shelter, their taxes etc, and many other horrors those on the outside face regularly.

 

This bears repeating about a hundred times. I do feel sympathy for the mages and always have ... but they really are so much better off than pretty much everyone else in the world. Hell, don't the mages whine about not having fancy quarters if you ally with them? Mind-boggling.

 

That said, I found the depiction of the mages and templars to be decently balanced in Inquisition, moreso than I thought it would be ... I feared they'd go full on "mages are victims, templars are evil". It still does feel like it leans that way, at times, but since the templars were the ones with the greater authority, it's sadly predictable and believable that more evils were committed by them -- simply because they had the power and the opportunity. Put mages in the same position, and they'll behave the same.

 

Cole's mission and some of his banters alone show the system was in severe need of change. And even in that nasty story, I was happy that the writers humanized at least one of the templars (if you go the spirit path, that is), i.e. the one whose neglect killed the real Cole.

[Aren]

 

I find your post childish in the extreme.

I don't find the  points of the op as childish, but you know (in the extreme) i understand that  people are ready to insult when something have hurt their feelings.

[Ryriena]

The biggest problem free mages going "Tevinter" is that the moment they pledge allegiance to the Imperium Fereldan should either banish them or attack them. Fiona could not "give" the mages to Tevinter since they are all practically citizens of fereldan, all of them.

This made no sense story wise to me at least, since legally speaking one person can not speak for the group as a whole, when making a contract liking making said group into a indentured servant.

[Aren]

Funny how once again blanket generalizations are used to judge an entire people. My inquisitor was a mage Solas was a mage, Viv and Dorian were mages, My Hawke was a mage my HoF, Morrigan, Wynne, First Enchanter Irving were all mages none of them did anything bad but you have just tarred them with the same brush.  Douchecanoes are on both sides of the issue and I am still hardcore pro mage.

 

Why should any mage have to prove they deserve their freedom?  Have you ever done so?  Did any non mage character ever have to prove they were deserving of freedom before earning it?  No.

 

I can see and appreciate seeing the grey in an issue that has never been black and white but all you did is childishly switch extremes.

I do not consider Champion Hawke or HoF or the Inquisitor since they can be non mages and for many players they are not mages, i consider only Mandatory mages and so shall you.

Is futile to use examples like that because i can do quite the opposite in fact, ...(Corypheus,The architect, Solas,Uldred, crazy mages of Kirkwall,Anders eccc...)s o as you can see a response like this is equal and childish.

Solas? is your best example then? after all the mess that he have caused?Mages are not like mundane they risk possession and cannot be free (ala Tevinter) without any special law for them, in the lore Demons are a fact a fact not a superstition.

[Catche Jagger]

Hey, I get not liking the mage and I also get wanting to support the templars. However, simply dismissing the argument that is in opposition to your own position is a horrible way to go about things. This is what I really hate about these mage/templar debates, not the debate itself, but the complete and utter dismissal of the idea that both sides have very strong points.

Yes, life within the Circle is generally better than the life lived by the average serf (or at the very least comperable in how bad they are). Yes, mages are dangerous, not just in the chance that they may become abominations or fall to blood magic, but also in how their powers in any form could easily fall to abuse without proper instruction and oversight. And yes, the mage leadership was rather incompetent in Inquisition.

None of this changes that the Circle system is host to many abuses, most of them by templars and that there are legitimate reasons for them to call for reforms. Not every Circle was like Kirkwall, but that doesn't mean that unchecked abuses were absent in other Circles.

I am pro-templar, but that doesn't mean I can't feel sympathy for the plight of the mages and it doesn't mean that I ignore the need for reform. The situation is not black and white. Don't pretend that it is.