515 réponses à ce sujet

[myahele]

I lost some of my respect when one of the mages in Haven complained to Cassandra of the living conditions there.

[Lord Raijin]

 

I do not consider Champion Hawke or HoF or the Inquisitor since they can be non mages and for many players they are not mages, i consider only Mandatory mages and so shall you.

Is futile to use examples like that because i can do quite the opposite in fact, ...(Corypheus,The architect, Solas,Uldred, crazy mages of Kirkwall,Anders eccc...)s o as you can see a response like this is equal and childish.

Solas? is your best example then? after all the mess that he have caused?Mages are not like mundane they risk possession and cannot be free (ala Tevinter) without any special law for them, in the lore Demons are a fact a fact not a superstition.

 

 

Yet in Broken tower in Origins those templars whos job is to maintain superiority over the mages were so easily duped that they became the desire demon thralls. It wasn't blood mages that I was attacking... it was templars who were charmed by demons.

 

 

Allowing yourself to become a demon thrall as a mundane is an equivalent to becoming possessed.

 

Perhabs Templars should under go the Harrowing too. Seems fair don't you think?

[EmissaryofLies]

Of course I'm not able to feel bad for the Southerners, Bioware did everything in their power to make it so.

 

Spearheaded by someone who should have been a badass, intelligent, and shrewd mage, but instead is a cowering child who points the finger at someone else when she is the one to blame.

 

The Rebel mages had one singular voice in Fiona and Bio decided that that voice should be stripped of any and all credibility. The icing on the cake is the fact that her subordinates disagreed with her direction and did absolutely nothing about it; the libertarians just as spineless as their leader.

 

I was fiercely Pro-Mage for years, but this savage violation of character left even I with no other alternative but to conscript the Southerners so that I might right their wrongs. Their great cause tarnished, their plight invalidated, it was so very disappointing, and another reason that I dislike Inquisition.

[Sidney]

I have some sympathy for the Mages but I've been a lot more ambivalent towards them all along than most think. The idea that they are pushed to blood magic I've got no sympathy for because of what we see in Tevinter...nor do I find Solas' argument about that all that compelling.

There clearly has to be some sort of help for kids. We've seen the problems of Connor being untrained but also if you have kids the idea of a 10 year old being able to in incinerate fluffy with his mind is disturbing. The basic problem of kidnapping children thus is hard to avoid but for their safety and the world's.

[SgtSteel91]

Nope, still sympathetic to the Mages. And I'm happy with what I can in Inquisition in terms of helping them, specifically allying with the Free Mages and getting Leliana elected as Divine.

 

But I hope we can put Mages and Templars behind and focus on other issues

[WhoopinYourA55Mate]

We need more of Eric Cartman's options to chose in game 

[Hair Serious Business]

We need more of Eric Cartman's options to chose in game 

"$crew you guys I'm going home" or "$uck my ballz".....yup def need more option as those.

[Lord Raijin]

Actually I suggest taking Cole in same party as her...he will *coughs* tell some interesting stuff about Vivenne's life that prove that actually her life both in Ciricle and with Bastien wasn't "flowers and sunshines" as she presents it to be.

 

"No one shall control me ever again..."....that stuff alone what Close says when reading her mind is more then proof how "in charge" she really was!

 

I never even thought of brining both parties along. I will have to do exactly that when I play DA:I again.

[Ranadiel Marius]

My initial thought on reading the thread title was yes. But thinking about it further, I can still feel sympathy towards mages. Not enough to become pro-mage freedom, but I can feel some sympathy for them. I however cannot feel sympathy for any of the mages stupid enough to follow Fiona. >.>

 

I think the root of all this problem is the Chantry

people are brainwashed into believing that the mages are gonna kill all if they are free (Chantry propaganda) and blame them for the blights

Yes, because mages are incapable of killing anyone accidently. They would never hurt anyone unless that person tried to hurt them first. They would most certainly not accidently set someone on fire or raise a hoard of undead to slaughter an entire village unintentionally. *coughconnercough*

 

And I am sure it 100% coincidence that the same year that Magisters entered the Black City and infused themselves with taint, that the first Blight began.

 

 

The red lyrium codex clearly shows that people are aware that Meredith was corrupted by it. You'd think something that let a templar leap several stories high, shoot lighting, and animate statues would be common knowledge. Plus, Barris outright admits that they were given red lyrium normally with the assumption it was just regular lyrium. Are they stupid enough to not know what that stuff is?!

Why would it be common knowledge? It happened once in a battle which had a small number of participants. There are something like 10 people who saw what Meredith could do when fully powered. There is no 24 hour news coverage that would blast the knowledge of what happened in Kirkwall to every person in Thedas. The only people who would be aware of it are those who read Varric's book (and we don't know how long that has been available). Further, it is so ridiculous sounding that I imagine a good number of people who read the book didn't believe it.

 

Prior to the events of the Templar storyline, Ser Barris and the majority of templars had no first hand knowledge of the red lyrium or red templars. Without that knowledge, I find it silly for them to know that the magical rocks they ingest for super powers is going to mess them up just because it is a different color. Especially since their superiors were essentially forcing them into having withdrawal symptoms to force them into having to take the stuff.

[Hair Serious Business]

Actually I suggest taking Cole in same party as her...he will *coughs* tell some interesting stuff about Vivenne's life that prove that actually her life both in Ciricle and with Bastien wasn't "flowers and sunshines" as she presents it to be.

 

"No one shall control me ever again..."....that stuff alone what Close says when reading her mind is more then proof how "in charge" she really was!

Yup I agree Cole does reveal some juicy stuff about our 'Madam De Fer'.

For one we learn how she never loved Bastien but found him disgusting.Also it tells how Vivienne hold no love for templars,only reason why she is doing what she is doing is to gain power so she can control everything because as you mentioned "No one shall control me again" quote says it all.Even when Inquisitor asks her if there will ever be something between them Vivienne responds with "And what am I to gain from that?" which is proof that she is not woman capable of loving anyone except more power.

[Aren]

Yet in Broken tower in Origins those templars whos job is to maintain superiority over the mages were so easily duped that they became the desire demon thralls. It wasn't blood mages that I was attacking... it was templars who were charmed by demons.

 

 

Allowing yourself to become a demon thrall as a mundane is an equivalent to becoming possessed.

 

Perhabs Templars should under go the Harrowing too. Seems fair don't you think?The demon can

it was a willingly possession like the one of Connor, the major problem are the abominations, when literally demons force the will of a mage and transform them into monster, without no hope of return, i love the mages but something must be done for their sake against the being of the fade, can you imagine the Nightmare demon who came into thedas by using a mage, no one will be able to stop that force of nature.

If you have a way to banish the demon into the fade forever or a way to remove a demon from an abomination of course the mage can walk around pretty much like the mundane even during their childhood.

[Cypher0020]

I was completely pro mage in the previous games, but Act 3 of 2, plus Inquisition finally got me to give up

 

My 1st mage quizzy went wit the templars, now  my other one will as well

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Actually they do. Candles, stoves and open fires where a real danger back in the day and city planning and construction didn't really take fire safety into account.

Hmm, I wonder how that worked out for them...

And candles do not hold a candle (heh) to the damage done by military-grade weaponry. Not "back in the day," and definitely not now.

 

A single mage can't light a city on fire with just a thought. A single mage can start a fire, which in a city will probably spread. But so can an inattentive person or a pyromaniac.

"Light on fire" is a figure-of-speech here. I am referring to the scale on which mages can cause destruction, deliberate or not. A small child's possession brought the town of Redcliffe to its knees. Here in the real world, we do not have to worry about our children suddenly turning into monsters, or the bad people in our society also having the power to summon spirits to help do their bidding.

Human rights is something we made up ourselves. It is the product of repeated trial-and-error in forming our society. Had we ever been forced to deal with things like our criminals having magical abilities and the existence of magic, our society would have formed very differently. Invoking "human rights" as we know them does not help us solve issues completely alien to our world.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Don't you think anyone who lust for power are bascially walking nukes? Mages and mundanes alike. A corrupted Knight-Commander that lust for power can cause the same damage of a mage.

Well the difference being that it takes years of hard work to rise up the ranks to become a Knight-Commander of the Templars. Also, there is only going to be one Knight-Commander over the area of one Circle's jurisdiction. And what makes that person dangerous is not his/her weapon or their level of skill wielding it; it's the existence of many other people at his/her side. A mage, OTOH, is born with innate destructive potential, and an army is not required to make magic dangerous on a wide scale.

[synnerman]

Once I lead the mages, I felt plenty for them. Seriously, given what Tranquility does and it's use as a tool of terror, I am going to feel for the Mages. The Lord Seeker's willingness to let things go to hell are indicative of just how horrible it is for mages. I don't care how stupid Fiona is, I am going to feel for the mages since I only play mages.  Templars went just as batshit crazy and in the face of their other abuses. I'm not going to let that go. Hell, I've found Loghain's role in the Circle meltdown in DA:O to be glossed over in these discussions. That one of the reasons I cannot fathom letting him live.

[Lord Raijin]

Hmm, I wonder how that worked out for them...

And candles do not hold a candle (heh) to the damage done by military-grade weaponry. Not "back in the day," and definitely not now.

 

"Light on fire" is a figure-of-speech here. I am referring to the scale on which mages can cause destruction, deliberate or not. A small child's possession brought the town of Redcliffe to its knees. Here in the real world, we do not have to worry about our children suddenly turning into monsters, or the bad people in our society also having the power to summon spirits to help do their bidding.

Human rights is something we made up ourselves. It is the product of repeated trial-and-error in forming our society. Had we ever been forced to deal with things like our criminals having magical abilities and the existence of magic, our society would have formed very differently. Invoking "human rights" as we know them does not help us solve issues completely alien to our world.

 

You certainly don't watch the news very often do you? Here in the real world children can turn into heartless monsters as school shooting seems to be quite common these days. Children who can't accept the word "No" from their parents ends up savagly killing them out of a temper tantrums.  Children aren't some cuddly innocent looking creatures as many like to see them as, not in this generation. Children with broken families often join violent gangs that terrororize an entire community.

 

You're right. We did create human rights in a way to coexist with each other. Same human rights that were seeing in Dragon Age. Mundanes are waking up and realizing that mages are people just like them, and if they're given a chance then perhabs they can use their makers given gift to contribute to society. Even the Divine (now deceased) realize the mistake that her Chantry had caused, and wanted to make amends by something about it at the cost of her life.

[Lord Raijin]

 

it was a willingly possession like the one of Connor, the major problem are the abominations, when literally demons force the will of a mage and transform them into monster, without no hope of return, i love the mages but something must be done for their sake against the being of the fade, can you imagine the Nightmare demon who came into thedas by using a mage, no one will be able to stop that force of nature.

If you have a way to banish the demon into the fade forever or a way to remove a demon from an abomination of course the mage can walk around pretty much like the mundane even during their childhood.

 

 

Possession is possession. Templars are suppose to be highly trained to deal with unruley mages and demons. The templars from the circle tower in Ferelden furthur proves that even the most highly trained mundane can be charmed by demons. No different then bwecoming possessed by one as a mage.

[Lord Raijin]

Well the difference being that it takes years of hard work to rise up the ranks to become a Knight-Commander of the Templars. Also, there is only going to be one Knight-Commander over the area of one Circle's jurisdiction. And what makes that person dangerous is not his/her weapon or their level of skill wielding it; it's the existence of many other people at his/her side. A mage, OTOH, is born with innate destructive potential, and an army is not required to make magic dangerous on a wide scale.

While it's true that it takes several to possible a dedcate to get from being a regular Templar to the ranks of Knight-Commander.. A regular Templar and a Sister can cause significant amount destructive damage if given the chance to. Sister Petrice and Templar Ser Varnell are the prime example of it with their bigory of being intolerate of another race and religion.

 

Knight-Commander Meredith's mage sister that became possessed by a demon killed approx 70 people yet how much blood did Sister Petrice and Templar Ser Varnell stained Kirkwall because of their bigory? They were responsible for the assassination of the Viscount and his son by essentinally starting a war with the otherwise peaceful Qunari? They were brought to Kirkwall because they were seeking a stolen artifact... not to convert people to the Qun.

 

ISIS should teach us that just because you do not have magic talents doesn't mean that you're less dangerous.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

You certainly don't watch the news very often do you? Here in the real world children can turn into heartless monsters as school shooting seems to be quite common these days. Children who can't accept the word "No" from their parents ends up savagly killing them out of a temper tantrums.  Children aren't some cuddly innocent looking creatures as many like to see them as, not in this generation. Children with broken families often join violent gangs that terrororize an entire community.

 

You're right. We did create human rights in a way to coexist with each other. Same human rights that were seeing in Dragon Age. Mundanes are waking up and realizing that mages are people just like them, and if they're given a chance then perhabs they can use their makers given gift to contribute to society. Even the Divine (now deceased) realize the mistake that her Chantry had caused, and wanted to make amends by something about it at the cost of her life.

 

Not even close. You are referring to mass-shootings. What Connor did was the destruction of an entire town.

 

And I do not view firearms IRL any differently than I view magic in Thedas. Both of them should be jointly-regulated by two parties not closely affiliated with each other IMO (corporations and the government for the former, mages and non-mages for the latter).

[Phaze50]

Not even close. You are referring to mass-shootings. What Connor did was the destruction of an entire town.

 

And I do not view firearms IRL any differently than I view magic in Thedas. Both of them should be jointly-regulated by two parties not closely affiliated with each other IMO (corporations and the government for the former, mages and non-mages for the latter).

 

First off it is pretty ignorant to claim "30 people getting shot" is worse than "100 people dying defending their town". Both are tragedies, one is not better or worse than the other. You wouldn't go "Welp, at least he left one parent alive." when you hear of a kid killing his/her father/mother, right?

 

More importantly though. Magic is something people are born with. Unlike firearms kids don't make the choice of saying "I want to kill people so I will steal this magic and turn myself into a mage now.". No, instead they figure out they are different right around puberty by suddenly hurting themselves or others with magic they can't control yet and destroying their surroundings. Sure thats pretty scary for their families, but the children themselves are just as irritated. Now Ferelden and Orlais treat those irritated and scared children in 2 possible ways.

1. They are turned into prisoners and slaves. Days earlier they were a normal human, now they are considered monsters that can and will be either killed or turned tranquil unless they constantly bow their head and accept the fact that they will live and die as prisoners.

2. They are hidden and isolated so the Templars don't hear about them. They can't talk to former friends, their family has to be (understandably) scared of what they might do because they can't control their magic and they have no one to share their pain of "being different" with.

 

Both of those methods basically teach those kids "You are a monster, no matter if you feel like one or if you don't." so why are people so shocked that those kids turn out into adults that start believing this mantra they are constantly being told and turn out to be monsters?

On the other hand you can't just let them go free because their power is actually dangerous.

 

Thats why, as irritating as I think Lelianna is (wtf is she in my game eventhough I chopped her head off in DA:O? xD) she has the smartest way of dealing with the problem when she becomes the divine.

She sets up a system where mages teach other mages. The teachers are actually given a chance to be a boon on society (instead of just giving them the choice "Be a slave or turn into a blood mage.") and their students can learn that not everyone that becomes a mage turns into a monster, giving them a positive outlook on life.

By doing that within 1 or 2 generations mages could easily be part of every society. If a normal human starts murdering people other humans hunt him down and imprison/kill him. If a random mage turns to blood magic those new and accepted mages (that have a far better understanding of blood magic than a Templar) could subdue/kill the blood mage instead of having 20 soldiers die trying to do so.

 

 

The mage-templar conflict slways seemed pretty similar to the abolition in america to me. If you are treating a certain group like "lesser people" and refuse to give them the same rights you have, you can't act all surprised when those people start lashing out (e.g. Black Panthers) instead of accepting their treatment. You can't expect an end to conflict when you create the conflict by abjecting people. The possibility of peace only opens up when both parties are on a leveled playing field.

In a sense thats why mages didn't "suddenly turn nice" in DA:I and why there are still so many blood mages around. They were never GIVEN freedom. They had to take it by force and now they obviously think they have to use force to remain free.  

[teh DRUMPf!!]

First off it is pretty ignorant to claim "30 people getting shot" is worse than "100 people dying defending their town". Both are tragedies, one is not better or worse than the other. You wouldn't go "Welp, at least he left one parent alive." when you hear of a kid killing his/her father/mother, right?

No, I most certainly would think that. Obviously the victim would be foremost on my mind, but, it is always worthwhile to recognize that things could be worse and to be thankful it was not. It's called looking on the bright side. It's this weird thing I do.

More importantly though. Magic is something people are born with. Unlike firearms kids don't make the choice of saying "I want to kill people so I will steal this magic and turn myself into a mage now.". No, instead they figure out they are different right around puberty by suddenly hurting themselves or others with magic they can't control yet and destroying their surroundings. Sure thats pretty scary for their families, but the children themselves are just as irritated. Now Ferelden and Orlais treat those irritated and scared children in 2 possible ways.
1. They are turned into prisoners and slaves. Days earlier they were a normal human, now they are considered monsters that can and will be either killed or turned tranquil unless they constantly bow their head and accept the fact that they will live and die as prisoners.

 
I am only going to say this once. The purpose of the Circle is NOT to serve as a prison or sweatshop, and so its inhabitants are not by definition prisoners or slaves. It is a sanctuary and school with free room-and-board as per the official documents that established them in the first place. If the Circle is not satisfying this goal, then the issue is with the Circle overseers, not the Circle institution itself, for we know of Circles that operate as intended and it proves both effective and desirable to mages and non-mages alike.

 

2. They are hidden and isolated so the Templars don't hear about them. They can't talk to former friends, their family has to be (understandably) scared of what they might do because they can't control their magic and they have no one to share their pain of "being different" with.

In which case, the family is doing the mage a great disservice. An untrained mage is a great danger to him/herself and the ones they hold dearest, to say nothing of everyone else in the vicinity.

Only reasonable exception to this is if someone in the family is a mage and can give them the training they require. It would be a reform I would be open to seeing, provided it is not too far away from Templars (in the event disaster were to strike).
 

Thats why, as irritating as I think Lelianna is (wtf is she in my game eventhough I chopped her head off in DA:O? xD) she has the smartest way of dealing with the problem when she becomes the divine.
She sets up a system where mages teach other mages. The teachers are actually given a chance to be a boon on society (instead of just giving them the choice "Be a slave or turn into a blood mage.") and their students can learn that not everyone that becomes a mage turns into a monster, giving them a positive outlook on life.

No, Leliana most certainly does not have the smartest way of dealing with it. Vivienne saw what the Circle should function like and makes it happen. Leliana simply reinvents the wheel, and has very suspect methods of achieving that (hardness of personality irrelevant). And Vivienne understands mages better than Leliana ever will, by virtue of Vivienne being one, and Leliana not.
 

By doing that within 1 or 2 generations mages could easily be part of every society.

Vivienne rose to Divine -- allowing mages to be part of the organization with lots of influence on Thedas -- without need for Leliana's radical reform.

[Milan92]

I didn't feel sympathy for them to begin with. It always puzzled me that people on here decided to champion the mages when they have it so much better off than so many other groups. Unlike your average serf and especially the city elves they are afforded many luxuries. Free education, good food, a warm bed and a roof over their head every night. Yes the circle has it's nastier aspects as well, but they still have it far better than those outside the circle who aren't fortunate enough to be born into nobility. They don't have to fear starvation, dying alone in the cold, disease (due to magic,) not having enough gold to pay for food, shelter, their taxes etc, and many other horrors those on the outside face regularly.

 

Their condition is the reason most cannot or do not leave the circle (although we know mages can and did with the exception of Kirkwall, until the Anders incident that is...) They can burn down villages, bring bad harvests, kill many people. "Anybody can do that! " Some will say, and it's true, but here's the clincher. Mages can not only do these things quicker and more effectively, but they can do so without meaning or even wanting to. They risk becoming an abomination whenever fear or anger completely takes over them.

 

Inquisition was the mages chance to prove they were worthy of freedom and the responsibility that comes with it. They were given free harbour and protection by the monarchy of Fereldan, who gave them their most defensible keep. They betrayed them, alligning themselves with the known enemy of the free world (as their slaves, no less) Kicking their protecters out of Redcliffe altogether. So no, I have no sympathy for the mages.

 

It isn't even that they allied with Tevinter (though believe me that is bad enough as it is.) It is the betrayal of those who trusted them when nobody else would and the fact they accepted indentured servitude (or slavery, something they never were in the circles.) They showed that they didn't really care about freedom, so long as it was other mages holding the leash.

 

Everyone deserves to be free!.jpg

[Milan92]

Quite the opposite. It didn't change my opinion on mages at all. Desperate people do desperate things. I wouldn't be surprised if the Templars also did something similar if they were in the same situation. However, this game completely destroyed any goodwill I had for Templars. The leadership was corrupt as heck and the fact that the grunts were essentially corrupting themselves because orders said so is facepalm worthy. Did nobody know what red lyrium did to Meredith?! The leadership knew but apparently not the rest of the lower Templars. Plus, the fact that Lysette says that faith doesn't get you anywhere and the templars complaints at Haven and the Silver Shield ending pretty much sealed the deal on how no matter how nice people like Barris or Evangeline are, the Order by itself is too corrupt and will continue the same abuses against mages it has always done. Thus why Leliana frees the mages and the Templars are corrupted and destroyed by their own hate. I consider it a karmic end for the Templars.

 

Yeah. by all means ignore the fact that the mages complain as well. But those poor mages ofcourse can complain all they want.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Yeah. by all means ignore the fact that the mages complain as well. But those poor mages ofcourse can complain all they want.

Let's see, merely complaining about living conditions after being confined to towers for most of their lives and never being treated as equals vs. templars complaining about not being able to punish mages and not caring about the big hole in the sky because hunting mages is more important than actually helping the world.

 

By all means, lets focus on a simple complaint about living space rather than hunting mages by the Templars. But those poor templars can hunt any mages they want regardless of situation! Think of the poor Templar who can't abuse whoever they want!

[Milan92]

Let's see, merely complaining about living conditions after being confined to towers for most of their lives and never being treated as equals vs. templars complaining about not being able to punish mages and not caring about the big hole in the sky because hunting mages is more important than actually helping the world.

 

By all means, lets focus on a simple complaint about living space rather than hunting mages by the Templars. But those poor templars can hunt any mages they want regardless of situation! Think of the poor Templar who can't abuse whoever they want!

 

Bunch of spoiled brats, that's what they are. I refer to SnakeCode's post where he explains their living conditions.