51 réponses à ce sujet

[GreyWarden_Smith]

Short Answer: no-one knows

 

but according to lore the old ones that haven't been corrupted and turned into arch-demons are sleeping somewhere in the deep roads. 

 

Third-Eye on!

 

If a Arch-demon is killed its souls goes to nearest Darkspawn that are soulless but if a Grey Warden kills the Arch-demon the soul will assail that wardens taint causing both souls to be destroyed but so much of the lore in Dragon Age is left undefined and unanswered so they might be untrue and something else is going on entirely as we don't truly know what the taint is and the effect it as on the Arch-demon. they could still be "alive" somewhere after they are killed by the warden. you have the shrine of Dumat in Legacy that re-acts to the offerings you give it in which could suggest something is going on with the Old Gods

 

Also Sten says in one of comics that "the Old Gods were like unto dragons, as the first human kings were like unto ordinary men" suggesting that the old gods are important to all dragons in Thedas (the sudden re-emergence in Inquisition of the dragons) and the fact in Inquisition we find that the Dragons can combat the blight and have a high tolerance to it.

 

Also Yanana in the comics says that there was time "before the Veil, before the mysteries were forgotten when dragons ruled the skies. If we believed that the Elfs created the veil which shields between the fade and Thedas this would suggest that the dragons were around before the Elfs came their to high power & immortallity during the same period. You could theorise that elfs locked the old gods away for some unknown reason that could be linked to blight, as some areas of the Deep roads are non-dwarfen and we created by other beings.

 

Also Solas despises the Wardens for interacting with things (Old Gods & the Blight) they cannot comprehend; suggest theirs history their with Solas and the Old Gods & the blight. or the fact they lack the correct knowledge he deems acceptable for their acts.

 

Or none of that is connected it is something completed differently we don't know and that's part of the fun IMO.

[xJLxKing]

The quote that Sten made is in regards to the relationship between man-Gods and men to Old Gods. Think pharaoh.

I think he was trying to say there's little difference between the two

[GreyWarden_Smith]

The quote that Sten made is in regards to the relationship between man-Gods and men to Old Gods. Think pharaoh.

I think he was trying to say there's little difference between the two

 

Oh OK I understand, a-bit like the Elven Gods.

 

~I kinda thought they could be like the First/Primes of the dragons of some-sort but who knows 

[xJLxKing]

Indeed. People need to open their third eye if they're going to be discussing lore. It's rather clear that the wardens and andrastians... even the dalish are incredibly ignorant and clueless to what's really going on.

Indeed. People need to open their third eye if they're going to be discussing lore. It's rather clear that the wardens and andrastians... even the dalish are incredibly ignorant and clueless to what's really going on.

Yes, I'm not saying there is no big picture in all this

I'm just pointing out your theories in both this thread and another are baseless. This entire "wardens and Dalish are Ignorant " doesn't really work. Yes, there is an indication by a few people mainly Solas that they lack some knowledge but it's never pointed to what. Hence no indication for your theory that old gods are still alive

For example, we know Solas doesn't like how wardens kill the old gods. We don't know why, this doesn't mean that we can start to make all kinds of theories like
That means the old gods don't die

Because I can say
That means the old gods die and Solas hates it when another God die

Both these theories are baseless, they all make sense because we aren't given enough information.

In retrospect, if you look at all the indications and hints in this game that Solas is the feral wolf, you could have made a theory based on that. For example, his room in sky hold has all kinds of wolves, his card..etc

[Monica21]

Indeed. People need to open their third eye if they're going to be discussing lore. It's rather clear that the wardens and andrastians... even the dalish are incredibly ignorant and clueless to what's really going on.

 

So, why does the Dark Ritual work? I'm getting more and more fuzzy on that. Because if you do the DR there are two souls in Kieran. He clearly has his own soul, plus Urthemiel's. (I think he says something like, "I feel alone now" after the encounter with Flemeth in the Fade.) So what is it about the Grey Warden mojo + fetus that ensures the coexistence of both souls? Prior to Inquisition I had assumed that if Kieran was an OGB, he would just be Urthemiel. But that's not the case.

 

And I may very well be at the point where I'm overthinking video game logic and nothing will make sense anyway.

[xJLxKing]

Oh OK I understand, a-bit like the Elven Gods.
 
~I kinda thought they could be like the First/Primes of the dragons of some-sort but who knows

yeah pretty much
But that's just my interpretation. I dont think the Qunari believe in the Old gods or maker hence they see them nothing but another kind of dragon. The paroahs or even the emperor of Rome were considered Gods by their worshippers but not by enemies.

[GreyWarden_Smith]

yeah pretty much
But that's just my interpretation. I dont think the Qunari believe in the Old gods or maker hence they see them nothing but another kind of dragon. The paroahs or even the emperor of Rome were considered Gods by their worshippers but not by enemies.

 

`Fair point

 

its implied that Qunari are linked to dragons or kinda have a weird connection to them and fact the Corypheus mentions they were mistakes is very interesting to me.

[Colonelkillabee]

Yes, I'm not saying there is no big picture in all this

I'm just pointing out your theories in both this thread and another are baseless. This entire "wardens and Dalish are Ignorant " doesn't really work. Yes, there is an indication by a few people mainly Solas that they lack some knowledge but it's never pointed to what. Hence no indication for your theory that old gods are still alive

For example, we know Solas doesn't like how wardens kill the old gods. We don't know why, this doesn't mean that we can start to make all kinds of theories like
That means the old gods don't die

Because I can say
That means the old gods die and Solas hates it when another God die

Both these theories are baseless, they all make sense because we aren't given enough information.

In retrospect, if you look at all the indications and hints in this game that Solas is the feral wolf, you could have made a theory based on that. For example, his room in sky hold has all kinds of wolves, his card..etc

Baseless means there's nothing to go by to support my assumptions. Clearly a lot of people disagree with you, just looking at my thread.... They are not baseless... hence the paragraphs I wrote with links given as to why I felt the way I did.

 

I said the old gods don't die because there's text in the fade that sounds like them and suggests they are still around, and it doesn't seem likely the devs would give text like that if they were dead and no longer an issue. Plus Solas' reaction and comment to Blackwall about being sure that blights will end when they kill the old gods.

 

I also favor it because the idea of an old god's soul being cancelled out by a mortal's makes no sense. In fact, that idea is baseless. Just because the wardens believe it doesn't mean it's support. They also believe Andraste was the wife of the maker based on legend and say so...

 

You might not agree with my conclusions, but they're not baseless. I give people something to work with in what I wrote. A baseless theory would have no in game text or anything to go off of. At all.

 

 

So, why does the Dark Ritual work? I'm getting more and more fuzzy on that. Because if you do the DR there are two souls in Kieran. He clearly has his own soul, plus Urthemiel's. (I think he says something like, "I feel alone now" after the encounter with Flemeth in the Fade.) So what is it about the Grey Warden mojo + fetus that ensures the coexistence of both souls? Prior to Inquisition I had assumed that if Kieran was an OGB, he would just be Urthemiel. But that's not the case.

 

And I may very well be at the point where I'm overthinking video game logic and nothing will make sense anyway.

 

Who knows, really. Not enough clues. Only thing I can think of is what Flemeth says about not forcing a soul on the unwilling. A darkspawn is a slave to the archdemon, so they can move in them whenever killed. A grey warden however has the taint but still isn't subject to control. So that would cause problems one would imagine. Perhaps like when people try placing body parts in someone and the body rejects it.

 

Having a fetus with the ritual prepared gives the old god soul somewhere to go that doesn't have a will of it's own yet. It's not agreeing, but it's not refusing, so they both share the space.

[xJLxKing]

I don't want to use this thread to discuss your theory but I actually did reply in it what I thoight. I'll give you a better response there

[Colonelkillabee]

I remember, I responded to it, just not in a direct quote since a lot of people had questions.

 

Like I said, you don't have to like it. Questions are also fine. I'm certainly not saying the theory is anything but.

 

Just saying people don't need to be so dismissive. There may not be cold hard facts suggesting that the wardens don't destroy the soul, but there's not cold hard facts suggesting they do either, leaving this up for theory crafting.

[Paxwell]

From what I've seen, my guess is that Dumat is still alive due to the dark ritual (and is possibly Mythal/Flemeth), and all the rest (except for Urthemiel if you did the DR), are destroyed and gone forever (Sola sheds a single tear.) 

 

The Dumat stuff in Legacy is a little sketchier, but Corpheus was pretty much drawing power directly from whatever magic batteries the Wardens were imprisoning him with, and if you mess up the Altar of Dumat earlier, you get attacked by demons, so they might've been the ones doing the wish granting.  It's funny how often expectations of power or divinity are subverted as "A Demon Did It."

[line_genrou]

Are we speculating or basing our answer on the lore?

 

The lore says when slayed by a grey warden, the arch demon's soul is detroyed along with the soul of the warden

Now, IF MAYBE PERHAPS that is not true, we do not know. The game tells us that that's what happened. Mind you, the codex in DAO about the Archdemon wasn't even a scholar study.

 

Morrigan makes it clear she doesn't want the soul of the old god Urthemiel destroyed, so to preserve that "power" she performed the DR.

 

And if the soul is not slayed, what happens then? Is it flowing in outer space? The soul seeks another body to take over when the dragon is killed, when trying to take over a warden, since he already has the taint but is still human with his soul intact, it kills him. The soul of the archdemon perishes in this attempt, otherwise it would possess another body since history proves the archdemon not killed by a warden will always be reborn in the body of a darkspawn.

 

 

If you say the god is still alive, you're saying that he became untainted after killing the warden he tried to possess

You're just making that up because nowhere in the lore says that ever happened.

Every archdemon slayed perished completely, minus Urthemiel

[xJLxKing]

All evidence point to the Archdemon soul dying. Unless new evidence point to them surviving, it's a pure speculation that's pretty baseless

 

You can argue that maybe Flemeth/Mythal might have done some sort of dark ritual, but we know all Warden who have dealt the final blow did die doing so. Can we assume history is wrong on this? Sure, but that logic can be used for anything? 

[Ranadiel Marius]

All evidence point to the Archdemon soul dying. Unless new evidence point to them surviving, it's a pure speculation that's pretty baseless

You can argue that maybe Flemeth/Mythal might have done some sort of dark ritual, but we know all Warden who have dealt the final blow did die doing so. Can we assume history is wrong on this? Sure, but that logic can be used for anything?

As I recall, no one actually knows who delivered the killing blow on the first archdemon. So it is assumed that they died in the process because that is how they believed the process had to work, but whether it actually did or not is unknown.

As for all evidence pointing to the archedemon's soul dying, I would disagree. What is certain is that w/e happens, it stops the blights. The in universe belief is that the souls obliterate each other because a body can only hold one soul. That theory is proven false at least twice, potentially up to four times. A body can hold more than one soul as seen by Flemythal, Cory, Kieran, and Cory's dragon without killing the body. Therefore, the reasoning of the Wardens' theory is wrong, and there is no evidence to support the old god soul being destroyed over being purified or some other explanation. Without knowing why this method works, it is impossible to really understand what is happening to something we can't see.

[xJLxKing]

As I recall, no one actually knows who delivered the killing blow on the first archdemon. So it is assumed that they died in the process because that is how they believed the process had to work, but whether it actually did or not is unknown.

As for all evidence pointing to the archedemon's soul dying, I would disagree. What is certain is that w/e happens, it stops the blights. The in universe belief is that the souls obliterate each other because a body can only hold one soul. That theory is proven false at least twice, potentially up to four times. A body can hold more than one soul as seen by Flemythal, Cory, Kieran, and Cory's dragon without killing the body. Therefore, the reasoning of the Wardens' theory is wrong, and there is no evidence to support the old god soul being destroyed over being purified or some other explanation. Without knowing why this method works, it is impossible to really understand what is happening to something we can't see.

We don't know Cory's full ability, but it's seems like he can transfer to other tainted creatures. He doesn't hold 2 souls though.

You are also forget that the only time 2 souls can be in one being is when one party is willing, hence we see demonic possessions, Flemeth, and spirit possessions. THE only soul example that contradicts this is Kieran which I don't lie, but we don't have any other example

No, we don't know the name of the person that did the final blow. However, we do know that the idea of a Grey Warden dealing the final blow was presented nearly the same year that Dumat was finally slain. There is no hint that there was another plan to kill Dumar in another way; no mention of conspiracy about this..nothing.

You also have to explain why Morrigan said the only way to preserve the Soul of Urthemiel was with the dark ritual. No, she is not all knowing, she could be wrong, but there is not much else to go on. 

 

Look, I'm not saying there is no chance of the Old Gods being completely dead. I'm saying, there is no evidence to suggest that. Nothing hints that Archdemon's could could have lived after a Warden Kills them..nothing. Nothing suggest there was a ritual that was used to preserve the Old God. At this point it's baseless.

[Ranadiel Marius]

Cory is shown taking over a Grey Warden in DAI, the very thing that is supposed to destroy Archdemon souls. It isn't a matter of the Grey Warden being willing to take Cory's soul as we see him able to take over Larius's body despite Larius wanting to kill Cory. A second soul can take over a tainted body without the first soul consenting with the second soul surviving. This is observed fact. Therefore the Grey Wardens are wrong on what happens, and the fact that Cory survives implies that the Old Gods should as well. Something different is happening and until we know why Cory maintains his form while Archedemons do not, we cannot rule out that the Archedemons survive (in some form) just like Cory does.

As for Morrigan, she only knows what Flemeth taught her on the subject. And we know Flemeth tells Morrigan everything.

[xJLxKing]

Cory=/=OldGods/Archdemons

 

This ability can certainly be something unique to only Cory as evident by that fact that the Architect another Magister like Cory doesn't show this ability 

[Ranadiel Marius]

Cory=/=OldGods/Archdemons

This ability can certainly be something unique to only Cory as evident by that fact that the Architect another Magister like Cory doesn't show this ability

Conceptually what he does is exactly the same. The Grey Warden assumption of why they can end blights is demonstrably false, and that opens a lot of possibilities that we have no info on.

As for the Architect...a. He is not confirmed as a Magister (despite the fact that he probably is), no that DG quote does not confirm it because people ignore the giant lawyerese escape hatch in the answer and b. Just because he isn't shown using it doesn't mean he doesn't have it.

[xJLxKing]

Again, it isn't the same

 

IF The old Gods have the same ability like Cory, they would CLEARLY be revived back when the Wardens strike the final blow.

 

Just because they have a similar ability doesn't make it the same. 

 

The Architect was confirmed to be a Magister

[MACharlie1]

Obviously, an Archdemon's soul is not the same as a regular persons. I'm likening to more like a spirit and death to a spirit is different then the death of a person - as stated by Solas after his personal quest. 

[Kantr]

This seems rather convoluted to me since mortal souls can supposedly become spirits after like justice, or like Wynne's spirit of faith.

 

It was made pretty clear that they don't know much of what's going on anymore than humans do.

Aside from the divine (who might not have been the divine) has any spirit being confirmed as human once?

 

Baseless means there's nothing to go by to support my assumptions. Clearly a lot of people disagree with you, just looking at my thread.... They are not baseless... hence the paragraphs I wrote with links given as to why I felt the way I did.

 

I said the old gods don't die because there's text in the fade that sounds like them and suggests they are still around, and it doesn't seem likely the devs would give text like that if they were dead and no longer an issue. Plus Solas' reaction and comment to Blackwall about being sure that blights will end when they kill the old gods.

 

I also favor it because the idea of an old god's soul being cancelled out by a mortal's makes no sense. In fact, that idea is baseless. Just because the wardens believe it doesn't mean it's support. They also believe Andraste was the wife of the maker based on legend and say so...

 

You might not agree with my conclusions, but they're not baseless. I give people something to work with in what I wrote. A baseless theory would have no in game text or anything to go off of. At all.

 

 

 

Who knows, really. Not enough clues. Only thing I can think of is what Flemeth says about not forcing a soul on the unwilling. A darkspawn is a slave to the archdemon, so they can move in them whenever killed. A grey warden however has the taint but still isn't subject to control. So that would cause problems one would imagine. Perhaps like when people try placing body parts in someone and the body rejects it.

 

Having a fetus with the ritual prepared gives the old god soul somewhere to go that doesn't have a will of it's own yet. It's not agreeing, but it's not refusing, so they both share the space.

The paragraphs could be anything. After all in that section of the fade there is also a note on when Dumat attacked his temple and a slave of Cory writing about his Masters plan to enter the fade as the Old Gods had stopped talking to them.

[Aren]

Which could really just mean that that's what they think is true based on observation. During the first Blight the Archdemon's soul kept skipping around until finally he was killed by a Warden, and then boom, Warden also dies. It doesn't mean that both souls actually are destroyed, it's just the conclusion based on what they'd seen.

i do not believe so.

We cannot try to make absurd assumption based on 0 evidence to try to belive that an Archdemon killed by a GW is still alive.

As far as I'm concerned Zazikale and Andorhal and even Urthemiel if killed with the US are COMPLETLY DEAD.

When playing as an Hurlock in Darkspawn chronicles the player can hear and understand the archdemon Urthemiel who during the final battle says "avanguard protect me before the warden will destroy us all"

What is the point for Mythal to try to save the Archedemon if he cannot be killed?

[MACharlie1]

 

i do not believe so.

We cannot try to make absurd assumption based on 0 evidence to try to belive that an Archdemon killed by a GW is still alive.

As far as I'm concerned Zazikale and Andorhal and even Urthemiel if killed with the US are COMPLETLY DEAD.

When playing as an Hurlock in Darkspawn chronicles the player can hear and understand the archdemon Urthemiel who during the final battle says "avanguard protect me before the warden will destroy us all"

What is the point for Mythal to try to save the Archedemon if he cannot be killed?

 

There is indeed zero evidence that the Archdemon is still alive....but what is the soul of an Archdemon? An Old God. Do Old Gods react to death in the same way as mortals do? Or are they more like spirits where they can be reborn - albeit sans memories and personality of the previous one - as stated by Solas?

 

The point of Mythal passing the knowledge onto Morrigan of the Dark Ritual is that it's a huge time saver. The soul isn't wandering around somewhere looking for a host. It's contained and controlled. For what purpose? Who knows...

 

And just to make another point, we actually don't know what happened to Dumat's Grey Warden killer. The Dark Ritual predates the Chantry and he's the only Archdemon to rise prior to that..... 

[DarkAmaranth1966]

We also know that the corruption does not affect the soul, only the mind and body. The OGB soul is not corrupt, just the mind and body of the archdemon housing it was. That means it's possible that the grey wardens are confusing the energy of the corrupt mind with the soul and, the soul of the old god does escape into the fade or void, or beyond. Once free of the blighted mind, it would not wish to harm people, it is not a demon.

 

We also know that it takes blood to carry the taint so, if red lyrium is tainted then does lyrium have some small amount of blood, making all enhanced magic blood magic?

[Aren]

 

And just to make another point, we actually don't know what happened to Dumat's Grey Warden killer. 

Dumat is not the only one, Toth slayer is unknown.