IIRC, one of the points of IT was the question of Anderson reaching the terminal separately of Shepard despite there being no other way. I just played through the ending and noticed this:
If the section with doors rotates then it is quite possible for Anderson to go through one door and Shepard to go from another 
A rotating structure with many doors to explain two paths to the same point is well and good... but does not answer how Anderson got up there in the first place. It also raises the possibility that, in a literal interpretation, the system controlling said doors ushered both Shepard and Anderson (and TIM?) onto a straight path to an unguarded control room. It defies logic.
A rotating structure with many doors to explain two paths to the same point is well and good... but does not answer how Anderson got up there in the first place. It also raises the possibility that, in a literal interpretation, the system controlling said doors ushered both Shepard and Anderson (and TIM?) onto a straight path to an unguarded control room. It defies logic.
How Anderson got there? Maybe managed to get to the beam while Shepard was out.
TIM probably knew where the room was and I don't think he got there via the beam.
As to why would the paths lead to that control room, it should be tied with the idea of rotating structure. But I admit, I have no idea. I'll think about it some more, maybe come up with something
Anderson followed Shepard up the beam means he was behind Shepard. That also meant he didn't take as direct of a shot from Harbinger's beam, meaning he most likely wasn't as badly injured. That meant he could have gotten up and walked far enough ahead so that he beat Shepard to the consoleA rotating structure with many doors to explain two paths to the same point is well and good... but does not answer how Anderson got up there in the first place. It also raises the possibility that, in a literal interpretation, the system controlling said doors ushered both Shepard and Anderson (and TIM?) onto a straight path to an unguarded control room. It defies logic.
I loved the IT for how elegant it was and felt it was a missed opportunity by BioWare. They could have made one of the greatest twists by going beyong the fourth wall, with both the protagonist and the player sharing the same feelings : for those who disliked the endings, both the hero and its puppet master rejecting the reality they were presented and finally finding the truth; for those who the ending, extra free storyline content YAY !
The endings with and without the EC have many problems :
- No boss fight, it felt like a really nice intercourse was shut down before climax. You could argue that the ultimate choice was the climax of the storyline for sure, but it definitely didn't have the intensity to reach the proper climax-like status 
- Rushed decision making : All the other important decisions gave you plenty of time and context elements to be confident with your decision. The last choice introduced crucial last minute details and asked you to make a last decisions just because of that. And that is mainly while the ending betrayed the series, not the actual content.
Forget about the IT for a moment, and picture this ending :
* No Catalyst scene or elevator to Heaven, and no further context elements (destroying technology, mixing DNA)
* TIM/Anderson moment after which you go to the console and dock the Crucible
* (Harbinger boss fight, optional but pretty kick ass nonetheless)
* At which point, you give two choices : Control or Destroy by choosing an option on the console.
* Ending cinematic
And voila, pretty palatable even with the weird atmosphere of the last segment ! Even moreso because the third act from Thessia onward is about the moral dilemma between Control and Destroy.
Aside from synthesis, the other options were pretty coherent with the moral dilemma of the third act and you really didn't need the Catalyst to make your final choice. You didn't even need the information about the Reapers. They didn't explain the Crucible and that was perfectly fine, because it wasn't necessary and I believe it gives a nice "Leap of Faith" feeling to it. Had they not described the Reapers' motives (which completely destroy the myth to be honest because their current purpose was pretty understandable while they were supposed to be "uncomprehensible beings"), they would have kept their intimidating presence.
Besides, you would have a pretty cool feeling of "defeating the unknown with the unfathomable" which would have worked !
- Nonsensical consequences : Control was the decision that made the most sense as it was presented. Destroy gave you new elements to consider (erasing current technology) that were there just to make you consider the other options and didn't make much sense within the framework of the Destroy option. The synthesis option was the most nonsensical, not only because of its premise but also because it goes against the EDI/Joker plot and the Geth/Quarian peace which show that even with the massive differences, these 2 lifeforms can share much. I mean, even if you kill off the Quarians, the Geth are pretty nice towards everyone else !
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I don't blame the BioWare writing team for creating those endings though. They have a track record of amazing storytelling up until that point that I believe the endings as they were are due to external pressure (probably from the publisher's part - EA please stick to publishing and not video game development, please ? ) and probably an excess of zeal : they wanted to give the Catalyst to the fans and pushed it through these constraints and it turned out that the game would have worked a lot better without it.
But it was a real shame and there were so many ways they could have prevented and fixed that.
I liked it.
It would've been one of the greatest mind-you-know-whats in video game history (right up there with Sanity's Requiem, KOTOR 1, and Psycho Snake).
But, it wasn't. It was a great theory and allow us to not accept the ending if we don't want to and make up our own ending to the trilogy some of us have crafted so intricately from landing on EP with Jenkins in tow.
This is what I find interesting:
1.Play Mass Effect 3 ending (with or without EC, does not matter)
2.Play Leviathan DLC ending (Leviathan conversation)
3.Compare them.
They are very similar. Surreal. They feel very "off". Shepard starts on his/her knees. "Wake up" / "Breathe"
We know:
-Leviathan conversation is an illusion (Shepard never leaves the Triton Mech)
-Leviathan can create mind worlds.
-Reapers have perfected Leviathan's powers over billions of years.
-Harbinger was made from the essence of the Leviathan race.
Who does Shepard meet at the beam in London? Harbinger. That is where the crazy stuff starts.
Food for thought.
So, do you guys actually like IT as an ending, or are you just saying that it seems likely?
Because while I can see the likelihood, I don't really see the appeal.
So, do you guys actually like IT as an ending, or are you just saying that it seems likely?
Because while I can see the likelihood, I don't really see the appeal.
I like IT as part of something much more. Something perhaps neither you nor I can understand yet.
'IT as waking up and kicking ass and not much more' became a lame concept to me after 2012-2013, after the window for a big DLC/full expansion pack ended.
The next game still have to be its own game, at least overall. So a Reaper War Part 2 focus wouldn't fly with me. Boring.
So, do you guys actually like IT as an ending, or are you just saying that it seems likely?
Because while I can see the likelihood, I don't really see the appeal.
Believe it or not, there's a spectrum of the Indoctrination Theory which seems likely but is utterly unappealing. Namely, that Shepard is basically in a coma with a crippled body following Harbinger's blast and everything afterward is a fight for his very soul as Indoctrination tries to take hold. The breath scene then becomes a final gasp before death, one last time to wake up from the nightmare before succumbing to the void.
I really don't like that interpretation, but before the Citadel DLC I found it likely. After the Citadel DLC it seems more like Shepard is starving to death while lost and trapped under rubble OnlyWordOfGod-knows-where.
Believe it or not, there's a spectrum of the Indoctrination Theory which seems likely but is utterly unappealing. Namely, that Shepard is basically in a coma with a crippled body following Harbinger's blast and everything afterward is a fight for his very soul as Indoctrination tries to take hold. The breath scene then becomes a final gasp before death, one last time to wake up from the nightmare before succumbing to the void.
I really don't like that interpretation, but before the Citadel DLC I found it likely. After the Citadel DLC it seems more like Shepard is starving to death while lost and trapped under rubble OnlyWordOfGod-knows-where.
Meh. Headcanon rules. Frack everything else.
I wouldn't rule out IT, not until the next game comes out. Things point out to a sequel. Unless they go with a reboot/alternate universe/other galaxy, they need a world state that is easy to build on. The endings as "what you see is what you get" are not well suited for that and Mike Gamble said there is no canon, so it's unlikely they're going to pick one ending and roll with it.
IT could give a world state with a post war galaxy open to exploration and new stories, all races are there, Crucible worked, no Reapers. The only major variable would be:
- Shepard dead (indoctrinated)
- Shepard alive (resisted indoctrination)
The indoctrination theory was supposed to predict Bioware's future moves in DLC. The theory was about Bioware's intention towards ME3. It said Bioware would reveal through DLC that the ending was a dream. Bioware did something else. Why this doesn't disprove the theory once and for all is something I don't understand.
The indoctrination theory was supposed to predict Bioware's future moves in DLC. The theory was about Bioware's intention towards ME3. It said Bioware would reveal through DLC that the ending was a dream. Bioware did something else. Why this doesn't disprove the theory once and for all is something I don't understand.
Scroll up and read post #32.
Scroll up and read post #32.
That's not food for thought.
The indoctrination theory said that Bioware would reveal that the ending was a dream.
Bioware did not do that. Bioware expanded the ending. The relays are being rebuilt. The reapers are no more. The galaxy is back in business. So, theory refuted. At least that's how theories are supposed to work... in theory. But I suppose not only leviathan but the extended cut and citadel, all that is also a dream. That's a damn long siesta Shepard is having.
You understood nothing from my Leviathan post. Leviathan DLC is no dream. It gives you information to better understand the ending (in case you have not already). The name "IT" is poorly worded. There is no theory. Never was. There is no dream (see my Leviathan-Harbinger comparison). There is only the content and trying to make sense of it. Remember Casey Hudson's "high level stuff" and "taking it to the next level". There was never going to be any 9.99$ DLC with some reveal, the player is supposed to figure things out.
After all this time I can only conclude 2 things about ME3's ending.
1) It's about Shepard getting indoctrinated.
or
2) Shepard died / is dying after being hit by Harbinger's beam. Everything we see after that is Shepard finding peace with himself (deals with the Illusive Man, deals with the Reaper problem, thinks about his loved ones one last time, every chosen ending contains positivity). Might also be the reason why every ending is almost the same (visually). Breath scene could actually be the final breath before Shep dies & passes on.
or a combination of 1 & 2.
The ending most definitely isn't real though.
I have just finished the series, got indoctrinated by it.
After running in to the bioware forum and others, there is some questions i still have, we all have. Still, there are some clues that could implicate why do you have to choose such bad endings.
If there's any reliable source of information in this game, it's Leviathan and Javik. Does they have any reason to lie? I don't think so. But the Catalyst has: self-preservation, and this is why I don't buy his lore.
Leviathan tells to Shepard that he is an anomaly after looking in to his mind, and that the Reapers sees him as a threat.What does Leviathan found in Shepard's mind that convinced him to join the war after millons of years hiding in a dark cave? Just a human, a lesser being, yet capable of making him and his kind be put in danger. Must be something precious.
In his words:
"You are different." (...) "The reaper sees you as a threat, and I must understand why."
Then the image of Dr. Ann looks in to a microscope, Shepars's nose bleeds, Levianthan explains the history of his people and that "to find a solution, it required information -- physical data draw from organic life in the cosmos". DNA, probaly. Also: "each reaper has the power to influence organics. Over countless cycles this ability was refined, perfected".
See, PHYSICAL DATA DRAW FROM ORGANIC LIFE IN COSMOS.
Shepard has something that Reapers want, no doubt about that, otherwise they would have him killed in Arrival.
Javik says and shows that experience is a biological marker, think now about all the experience a reaper has, as it is build with genetic information from billions of individuals.
My bet is that the Reapers wants the genetic information of Shepard - for some reason he is an anomaly that could benefit all the Reapers if added in the making of a reaper, a super rare data to be just killed.
The Collectors attack on SR-1 says otherwise though, or maybe they didn't know about Shepard value yet. Just speculation from this point.
After all this time I can only conclude 2 things about ME3's ending.
1) It's about Shepard getting indoctrinated.
or
2) Shepard died / is dying after being hit by Harbinger's beam. Everything we see after that is Shepard finding peace with himself (deals with the Illusive Man, deals with the Reaper problem, thinks about his loved ones one last time, every chosen ending contains positivity). Might also be the reason why every ending is almost the same (visually). Breath scene could actually be the final breath before Shep dies & passes on.
or a combination of 1 & 2.
The ending most definitely isn't real though.
I would add:
3) Shepard is captured in a Leviathan style mind world created by Harbinger/The Intelligence in order to prevent him/her from activating the Crucible. The actual level of indoctrination is irrelevant here because the transition to that kind of illusion is forced instantly.
But yeah, it would have to be one of these options or a combination of them. After seeing the games, lore, extended lore and various Hudson/Walters interviews I can say that I'm not buying into the Red-Green-Blue flashy explosions endings. No way that **** is real.
- shooting a tube does not activate the Crucible. There would be computer VI's or at least a control panel or work-stations on the device itself.
- no way an organic mind could replace, rewrite or overwrite The Intelligence, an eons old advanced construct that basically is the Reapers.
- no way an energy pulse could add synthetic components to organic life all over the Galaxy.
It's all symbolic. The RGB part is what Shepard (and the player) thinks is happening. The extended cut-scenes are what Shepard (and the player) thinks will happen. As Bioware said, YOU are Shepard. Well played Mr. Hudson, well played indeed. The interviews from "The Final Hours" reveal there were no plans for a sequel, so everything could remain open to speculation, an "Inception" style ending - "Was it real?". Well, you figure it out, the authors of this style of writing will never answer that question.
So what does this mean for the franchise? Unknown. There is a new studio, new people, new leadership, new vision.
I would add:
3) Shepard is captured in a Leviathan style mind world created by Harbinger/The Intelligence in order to prevent him/her from activating the Crucible. The actual level of indoctrination is irrelevant here because the transition to that kind of illusion is forced instantly.
But yeah, it would have to be one of these options or a combination of them. After seeing the games, lore, extended lore and various Hudson/Walters interviews I can say that I'm not buying into the Red-Green-Blue flashy explosions endings. No way that **** is real.
- shooting a tube does not activate the Crucible. There would be computer VI's or at least a control panel or work-stations on the device itself.
- no way an organic mind could replace, rewrite or overwrite The Intelligence, an eons old advanced construct that basically is the Reapers.
- no way an energy pulse could add synthetic components to organic life all over the Galaxy.
It's all symbolic. The RGB part is what Shepard (and the player) thinks is happening. The extended cut-scenes are what Shepard (and the player) thinks will happen. As Bioware said, YOU are Shepard. Well played Mr. Hudson, well played indeed. The interviews from "The Final Hours" reveal there were no plans for a sequel, so everything could remain open to speculation, an "Inception" style ending - "Was it real?". Well, you figure it out, the authors of this style of writing will never answer that question.
So what does this mean for the franchise? Unknown. There is a new studio, new people, new leadership, new vision.
Yet this third option is something like IT, Harby trying to fool Shepard in some kind of illusion. The point is that almost anyone belived that RGB **** was real.
And think about the money EA would lose with Shepard's death! They could profit a lot more if he/she is alive and kicking some asses in some follow up. Huge amount of fans ten years from now using their ME3 saves, others still buying ME1 2 3 to play all the series and build Shepard as they like...
Yet this third option is something like IT, Harby trying to fool Shepard in some kind of illusion. The point is that almost anyone belived that RGB **** was real.
And think about the money EA would lose with Shepard's death! They could profit a lot more if he/she is alive and kicking some asses in some follow up. Huge amount of fans ten years from now using their ME3 saves, others still buying ME1 2 3 to play all the series and build Shepard as they like...
Good point on the EA part. EA is a big factor here. Casey Hudson did not want to make any sequels but it seems we are getting one after all. Who knows how many things changed on EA's demand. Personally, I would buy a Shepard game, even if he/she is not the protagonist and appears as an NPC (like Hawke in DA: Inquisition).
This is just sad.
Hey, how does modern IT theory deal with the leaked script? You know, the one with no indoctrination and endings that are just like the literalist view of the released game? Was the script a plant? Or did Bio adopt the IT by simply that IT was true, without changing anything in the game?
Global warming is sad. People still playing the game after 3 years and figuring out (mostly by themselves) that the endings are off (and that there's a high probability of some kind of Reaper illusion/trick) is not sad. It just shows how great this game is.
Leaked script. OK, I've read that, not very different from the vanilla game. Same themes, accept the reaper's way or defy them. Why are we even discussing the leaked script when we have the official released game containing the full experience?
ME3 final is just what EA wants to reveal about what happened for now, ME4 can happen in another galaxy, I don't know, they will figure out a way to get Shepard up one way or another. They just don't want to reveal it now.
Maybe in ME6, when we discover that the Reapers are enemies of another alien species of Andromeda Galaxy and we need Shepard for... The Good Old Space Magic Speculation... we will get good answers for ME3 final.
I feel like I don't really have a right to have an opinion about this because I just started my trilogy playthrough early this month and have only made it halfway through ME2, but I do have opinions and that's what forums are for, right? Sharing uninformed opinions. 
It was always paradoxial how people hated the endings but they cling on to IT as if, if that had happened originally, they'd not have a problem with a complete lack of closure or player choice.
I'm not sure I understand the problem with player choice here. As a player, you can only RP the character you're given, and if your character doesn't know he's being indoctrinated, then you, the player, shouldn't know. Yeah, there are a lot of things in video games that you find out via cutscenes that your character doesn't have access to and those things really can't not inform the player's decision. But I don't think the makes the IT any less brilliant if it were true. And if had been true and if Bioware had actually done that and made it clear in the endgame that Shepard had been going through indoctrination maybe since talking to Sovereign, then I think it would put the series up there with one of the greatest IPs in modern gaming.
I'm not sure I understand the problem with player choice here. As a player, you can only RP the character you're given, and if your character doesn't know he's being indoctrinated, then you, the player, shouldn't know. Yeah, there are a lot of things in video games that you find out via cutscenes that your character doesn't have access to and those things really can't not inform the player's decision. But I don't think the makes the IT any less brilliant if it were true. And if had been true and if Bioware had actually done that and made it clear in the endgame that Shepard had been going through indoctrination maybe since talking to Sovereign, then I think it would put the series up there with one of the greatest IPs in modern gaming.
It wasn't the lack of choice that made some people dislike IT. It's the fact that some of the choices could be wrong ones and that would mean their Shepard screwed up and they themselves got duped by the reapers.
Most people won't agree but yeah IT was really well thought and i'm sure it was meant to be canon before people started crying all over the place. All proofs lead to IT anyway.
Bioware tried to make/convert ME to an European art movie where a symbol can has a lot of meanings, where choices are sometimes aren't choices at all, where sometimes even most powerful people can lose their sanity/control but players weren't smart enough to understand that and hated it.
Well maybe in a decade or so we can actually see more smart endings instead of "And they lived happily after. Shep was on unicorn marching to the end of rainbows with his blue children. Tinki Winki waved his hands, children started laughing." stuff that people are/were after.
I was hoping ME 3 was a "catalyst" to that, a door opened to perception in gaming but so far gaming industry, both developers and players, failed me.
And no I don't blame them, i blame Hollywood and religious and/or fantasy stuff that degrades everything to "good vs bad", "hero saving the day", "villain drinking baby's blood" etc.
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