18 réponses à ce sujet

[Dragonzzilla]

Spirits and demons, more accurately just the inhabitants of the Fade, are one of the most important pieces of Dragon Age lore. Countless problems in-universe, and rarely, salvation too, are rooted in the Fade. So this'll be a general discussion of sorts. Please try your hardest to keep the thread alive. And not like last time I asked, you sods.
 
To start us off, I want to ask the whole room if anybody besides myself is at all curious of what myriad forms spirits and demons can take. Which virtues and vices fall under those spirit classifications already established; is there strength in specificity, or does a spirit grow stronger if its aspect is broader? In that case, is a Demon of Wrath stronger and more intense than a Demon of Rage; do they look similar at all?

[Navasha]

One could surmise that there are likely spirits for every conceivable emotion or mental concept.     Not sure there is too much delineation between them though.   Anger, Wrath, Rage, Fury are all just describing the same basic emotion.    How powerful they are seems to be individualized to each specific spirit/demon according to how much they power they have acquired.    The Nightmare demon, for instance, was probably a normal fear demon at some point, but amassed a lot power feeding on fears.

 

In the fade, spirits/demons don't really have a form.   They just simply manifest how the observer imagines them to be.    We see a gigantic burning form because we have been taught that is what embodies rage.     If someone grew up thinking and believing a daisy was the epitome of rage, they might see a giant flower spring up from the ground instead.  

[Ashagar]

There is likely spirits and demons for about every kind of emotion and concept in existence and in the case of certain kinds of demons have ways to become smarter and more dangerous fear demons being the primary example. Fear demons are not usually seen outside of the fade but they are potentially more dangerous in the fade than any other known kind of demon.

 

They start of stupid and most stay that way but the Codex states that the more fear a fear demon feeds more powerful and smarter they become and if they start feeding on the fears of even a single nation they can become powerful enough to warp the fade to their whims... Thinking in the context of that, think about the fact the nightmare is feeding not just on the fears of a single nation but all of thadas caused by the darkspawn and the blight and it quickly becomes clear just why it is so powerful it can command a literal army of demons and is basically too powerful to kill.

[Eliastion]

An interesting topic is, though, what (generally speaking) spirits tend to become what (generally speaking) kinds of demons.

Some are pretty obvious: Justice easily gets corrupted to Vengeance, for example, and Purpose to Desire. We're also told that both Faith and Wisdom end up as Pride demons...

It's an interesting exercise to look at some basic spirits (or emotions/concepts that most likely have their spirits) and thing what can become of them to turn them into demons. Sometimes it's not obvious and one has to answer - are some kinds of spirits more resistant? It would seem so (seeing as we're told that Purpose spirits are very prone to becoming Desire)... on the other hands - perhaps the difficulty of finding matching demons comes from our lack of understanding. We know that Compassion takes "hurts" away - and if it starts stealing them to feed on them it suddenly isn't Compassion but something fear-like... even though there seems to be little conceptual link between Compassion and Fear.

Another thing is - can we really differentiate Demons and Spirits? It's tempting, but when we consider that every emotion has its spirit, it becomes apparent that this is yet another arbitrary classification. Some spirits are just more destructive and those destructive enough we like to call demons - but the line is drawn by us, not them...

On the other hand, seeing how the Fade works and how most people do perceive to be a huge difference between Spirits and Demons - it's not impossible that this thinking alone could actually make spirits drift into one of those two categories, pretty much emptying the middle ground.

[Dragonzzilla]

An interesting topic is, though, what (generally speaking) spirits tend to become what (generally speaking) kinds of demons.

Some are pretty obvious: Justice easily gets corrupted to Vengeance, for example, and Purpose to Desire. We're also told that both Faith and Wisdom end up as Pride demons...

It's an interesting exercise to look at some basic spirits (or emotions/concepts that most likely have their spirits) and thing what can become of them to turn them into demons. Sometimes it's not obvious and one has to answer - are some kinds of spirits more resistant? It would seem so (seeing as we're told that Purpose spirits are very prone to becoming Desire)... on the other hands - perhaps the difficulty of finding matching demons comes from our lack of understanding. We know that Compassion takes "hurts" away - and if it starts stealing them to feed on them it suddenly isn't Compassion but something fear-like... even though there seems to be little conceptual link between Compassion and Fear.

I share your interest. I've actually been working on list, but it's incomplete. Perhaps you like to help, for academic purposes? Mind you, some of these things I have listed are so similar they're practically redundant, but I can't differentiate them all due to their nuances. Anyway, here:

Spoiler

Anguish
Anxiety: Humility
Apathy: Compassion, Serenity
Avarice: Generosity
Awe: Fear
Benevolence
Compassion: Apathy
Composure: Sloth
Confidence: Pride
Contempt: Love, Loyalty
Conviction
Courage
Curiosity: Desire, Envy
Desire: Love
Despair: Hope
Diligence
Doubt: Faith
Dread
Effort
Envy
Euphoria
Faith: Despair, Doubt
Fear
Forlorn
Generosity
Gratitude: Envy
Grief
Happiness
Hatred
Honesty: Depravity, Pride
Honor
Hope: Despair
Horror
Humility: Anxiety, Loathing
Hysteria: Joy, Serenity
Joy: Hysteria
Justice: Vengeance
Kindness
Loathing: Humility
Love: Desire
Loyalty: Contempt
Mercy
Passion: Desiree
Patience: Sloth
Persistence
Pride: Confidence, Will, Wisdom
Rage
Purpose: Desire, Sloth
Remorse
Sacrifice: Hunger
Shame
Sloth: Composure, Patience
Sorrow: Ecstasy, Joy
Temperance
Terror
Valor
Vengeance: Justice
Will: Desire, Pride
Wisdom: Pride
Worry: Faith

[Eliastion]

I don't think I'm really up to the task, but I noticed one thing - you seem to mix two things: opposite emotion/concept (Hysteria:Serenity) and complementary negative emotion/concept (Justice:Vengeance). The latter make sense in context of spirits (Justice can be corrupted into Vengeance as the concepts differ mostly by their destructiveness) but the former doesn't really give us much insight. Chantry might be interested what virtue is the opposite of what sin, but that's their theological problem, when we're talking about spirit research, we want things that are connected, not opposite.

[Dragonzzilla]

I don't think I'm really up to the task, but I noticed one thing - you seem to mix two things: opposite emotion/concept (Hysteria:Serenity) and complementary negative emotion/concept (Justice:Vengeance). The latter make sense in context of spirits (Justice can be corrupted into Vengeance as the concepts differ mostly by their destructiveness) but the former doesn't really give us much insight. Chantry might be interested what virtue is the opposite of what sin, but that's their theological problem, when we're talking about spirit research, we want things that are connected, not opposite.

There are numerous ways that a spirit can become a demon:

• The spirit can already embody something mortals would perceive as a vice or an ambiguous concept.
• The spirit can reflect or imitate human perversions of a virtue, or possess a mortal with distorted values.
• The spirit can oversimplify the application or fulfillment of its virtue.
• The spirit gains ego, ambition, longing, or a thirst for power.
• The spirit can be driven insane by outside forces, particularly manifesting into the real world prematurely or against its will.
• The spirit can be denied its original purpose, particularly through blood magic binding.

More simply however, I reasoned I could use opposing emotions/concepts since Demons of Despair were apparently Spirits of Hope once.

[Eliastion]

More simply however, I reasoned I could use opposing emotions/concepts since Demons of Despair were apparently Spirits of Hope once.

I don't think that's true. I'm pretty sure that was about demons of Fear and it was not about them being Hope originally, but rather being antithesis of Hope. It concerned their activity and philosophical assessment of what they are, not their origins.

[Wolfen09]

you could start with the list of demons and spirits we know via in game or novels.... some fall under broader categories

 

 

Demons:

 

Rage

Pride

Desire

Sloth

Despair (codex says it used to be classified under sloth, as sloth can mean extreme sadness, however they gave it it's own category)

Fear (terror would fall here i believe)

Envy

 

not categorized demons:

 

wraiths

shades

 

 

spirits:

 

Wisdom

Faith

Purpose

Compassion

Valor (see DAO)

Justice

 

Unclassified as demon or spirit (too hard to categorize)

 

Vengeance (dont believe vengeance is a full blown demon, but nor is it a spirit... hard to classify)

 

There may be others we can infer, but as for the ones we have seen in game, i think this is all of them

[Kantr]

Pomposity? Thats what solas calls the spirit in crestwood.

 

Heres the wiki list Demons
Desire demon
Despair demon
Envy demon
Fear demon
Hunger demon
Pride demon
Rage demon
Sloth demon
Terror demon

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Demon

 

I dont know why we're discussing this when theres a ton of info on the wiki

[Raoni Luna]

Spirits are not like this, I mean, their original form is more complex, due to mortals perception of reality being more defined when they meet a spirit the spirit takes the form of their dominant aspect, what they represent the most. With a person like Solas they would probably be less defined, more fluid, while with a person like Cassandra the spirit would probably become very defined. I guess that's it.

[Kantr]

Spirits are not like this, I mean, their original form is more complex, due to mortals perception of reality being more defined when they meet a spirit the spirit takes the form of their dominant aspect, what they represent the most. With a person like Solas they would probably be less defined, more fluid, while with a person like Cassandra the spirit would probably become very defined. I guess that's it.

Some however are very defined. Justice, the demon masquerading as Mouse

[Lavaeolus]

My guess: the Fade is more malleable than you might think. Oh, sure, you know that to some extent, but sometimes it takes a bit more to properly hit you. The Fade is not just emotions, but the collective thoughts and ideas of everyone in Thedas (dwarves excluded, maybe). So how many spirits are there? There isn't a direct amount, because it's potentially infinite.

Everyone has a name for rage, anger, everyone has felt it, it's defined and basic and common. Then the concept of pride comes in, more complex, everyone has an idea of it but it's not so concrete, and hence a more powerful demon is born (previous lore has stated more complex = more powerful in general, with "Pride" being the most powerful of the stereotypical five -- take it with a grain of salt, wacky codexes). But there are concepts we feel, we don't have names for, and they're probably there too, sort of, unfocused. If everyone became aware of it, if it started to influence how they categorise the world, they'd start appearing more solid too. But it's not just emotions, any concept, e.g. Justice, can appear. And then to different people the same basic ideas can be categorised in different ways, certain elements of Emotion X moved to Emotion Y, the lines of divide in a spectrum of emotion varying, one concept viewed in a different way.

And, see, once you get to "concept" things become even more variable. Because, concept? Evidently, that's a very wide label, because apparently Varric's books have had an influence on the Fade, the characters, the plots, the ideas.

Cole: Your stories aren't real. But then people read them and they are!
Varric: Nn, get the readers invested and you'll have them forever.
Cole: So many people reading, dreaming, feeling. Spirits spill around the veil making shapes. Reality from writing!
Varric: I've got fans in the Fade? Well, that's something. Shame I'll never meet them.

One codex, for instance, speculates that were dwarves to dream the Fade would change dramatically and rocks would stop floating around, because that's not how dwarves would see them. Or something along those lines, don't remember too much about that codex.

[Dragonzzilla]

Some however are very defined. Justice, the demon masquerading as Mouse

There is a possibility that Mouse was actually a spirit. According to Solas, a spirit often manifests as what its mortal viewer expects it to be. Spirits of wisdom are sometimes turned into demons of pride by this way, simply because the latter is the expectation. Following that logic, Mouse may have appeared as a pride demon to the Warden, when, in-fact, was not. The Warden deemed Mouse to be the true challenge of the Harrowing, which the Templars and senior mages warned as a demon. Therefore, Mouse adapted to the Warden's expectation. This theory can be supported by Mouse's choice to spare the Warden, whom it could have easily possessed.

[Ashagar]

Hmm what should be interesting is that that in the notes on the demon wiki entry they mention a demon called remorse that hasn't be been the series yet... I wouldn't have thought remorse would have a associated demon, I wonder what sort of spirit would be perverted to produce a remorse demon?

[Kantr]

Hmm what should be interesting is that that in the notes on the demon wiki entry they mention a demon called remorse that hasn't be been the series yet... I wouldn't have thought remorse would have a associated demon, I wonder what sort of spirit would be perverted to produce a remorse demon?

It sort of seems to be the opposite of pride.

[Ashagar]

But pride are corrupted wisdom and faith spirits? Does that mean that remorse is a combination like envy which is equal parts arrogance and cowardness or vengeance which seemed by be a combination of a corruption of justice combined with anger? 

[Eliastion]

I think the whole distinction spirit/demon isn't really the best way to put it. The whole category of "demons" seems to be more like a construct used to classify "malevolent" spirits. Of course, then you need to ask yourself if lots of people believing that wouldn't in fact lead to some polarization of spirits into spirit/demon category...

Generally, however, I'd say that a demon is generally a destructive spirit. Wrath is naturally destructive so a spirit of this emotion is always a demon. Some other emotions/concepts may be more problematic - take a spirit of purpose, or of love. Both have a destructive side pretty much built-in, but this destructiveness isn't the core of their identity, so they likely balance on the edge of being desire demons. And then there are other spirits that can become demons through actual corruption - Justice devolving into Vengeance is a great example, but there are more violent situations where the spirit goes all-demon through outside means: that was the case with that friend of Solas and many spirits forcibly brought through rifts: they become destructive by being driven mad. Note how primitive were all those Pride demons we encounter. Whatever they were originally, we encounter them when they're suffering and crazy, rampaging blindly... I don't think they are "proper" Pride Demons, really.

 

One other interesting case is Sloth demon. We don't see those in DA:I and there's even a Codex entry that would suggest that fear/terror demons were mislabeled as Sloth demons. The problem with actual Sloth is that this kind of spirit, while it represents a negative concept, isn't really all that destructive. A proper Sloth spirit/demon would be all about amusing itself and not giving a damn. I think we have one good example of Sloth spirit in Mage Origin in DA:O. It just lies there and seems to be half-bored and half-amused by this whole trial of yours. He can help you... only he apparently doesn't, he really just plays along with Mouse "learning" how to shapeshift into that bear-like form Sloth assumed. It's a couch potato that could probably make you stay with him forever, but trapping you in some illusion and/or possessing you would be just so much work...

[Lady Artifice]

I agree with those who have suggested that it's as many different ideas (virtues, sins, and principles) as one can think of. A spirit is what it tries to be, which is one of the reasons I find the topic endlessly fascinating.