1363 réponses à ce sujet

[Don Lionheart]

So, I've been perusing the forums for DA:I for a while, and noticed something that I just don't quite understand: why does so much of the player base (maybe even the majority of it) hate Grand Enchanter Fiona?  I posed this question on a different thread that was discussion mages (I'm not sure what the thread or exact topic was), but I didn't see any replies to it, so I'm asking it here.  Now, I've read all the Dragon Age books, and I read the comics, so I like to believe that I'm fairly well versed in the lore of the world and I have a pretty good understanding of all the characters, but what I don't understand is why people hate Fiona so much.

 

Assuming everyone here has played DA:I, everyone should know that Fiona is the one who declared the mage rebellion in the first place.  The more complicated backstory in that decisions involves her initial call for a vote with the College of Enchanters that resulted in the College being disbanded prior to the events of Dragon Age: Asunder, and then due to the events that take place in the novel, the College is reformed, everything goes crazy, and it meets again in Andoral's Reach, where Rhys (who's mentioned but not seen in DA:I and is the main character of Asunder) has taken up leadership of the Aequitarians faction in the stead of his late mother Wynne, who had previously voted against independence, and decides to vote for independence, which officially begins the Mage Rebellion.

 

Now, what people may or may not know (though I'm willing to bet a lot of people who read this are going to know by virtue of the fact they're reading forums at all) is Fiona's history as a Grey Warden (which has a single dialogue choice explaining it in DA:I) who was accompanied by King Maric and went along with other Grey Wardens to search for the previously Warden-Commander of Orlais, who'd been captured by The Architect when he went on his Calling, during the events of Dragon Age: The Calling.  Without going into too much detail for the sake of saving space and time, Fiona ends up losing the taint within her and is no longer a Grey Warden at the end of the novel, and also gave birth to Maric's illegitimate son (and king in my canon playthrough), Alistair.

 

So, with that incredibly brief backstory of Fiona established, my question remains: why do players hate Fiona so much?  Sure, she gave in to Tevinter Magisters, but that has more to do, in my opinion, with the fact that they had used time travel to get to Redcliffe before Fiona had approached the then-Herald of Andraste in Val Royeaux.  If they had not used time travel, the mages would not have aligned with Tevinter because they knew that the Inquisition was on its way.  However, with Tevinter using time travel, Fiona had no way of knowing the Inquisition was coming because she had never gone to them for aid, not with the altered timeline.  So, aside from her siding with Tevinter, which is admittedly foolish on her part, what's everyone's beef with her?

[Ranadiel Marius]

Posted this in response to you asking the question in another topic, so here you go again.

 

There are two camps of people who hate her, with some overlap.

The first camp hates her because she comes off as a character from a bad fan fiction in the novels because of how much of a special snowflake she is. She upended what people who read the book after playing the game, considered established canon regarding Alister for no discernable reason making the sister side quest make no sense, and all we get for that upending is a writer's pet that seems to have been designed to be the most super special awesome thing ever, to the point that it is eye roll worthy. "I'm a badass Grey warden, oh met a man, now I'm immune to the taint so we can have babies! Now I have a kid who is a prince, but he can never know about me because reasons. Peace out I'm off to become Grand Enchanter and free the mages because everyone loves me." Mary Sue used to be used a lot when talking about her pre-DAI.

The second camp hates her because she is a complete moron in DAI (which is also the reason why the term Mary Sue is used less often when talking about her than it used to be). She started a war against the templars with absolutely no plan on how to make the rebellion work beyond, "We deserve freedom." By dumb luck her people manage to get positioned in the most defensible city in the South thanks to the mercy of the Fereldan monarch. However the moment she hears (false) rumors that the templars are marching on Redcliffe her solution is not to plan with the ARL on how to best protect the village, but to betray his trust, ally with a foreign power that is incapable of assisting in the hypothetical situation she fears, and institute a rebellion. And to top it off, in the process she sells her people into slavery unknowingly. Then when she realizes that she is dealing with Darth Vader, her response is to whimper like a kicked puppy rather than trying to do anything about it. Hell she doesn't even help save the mages in their quest. And no, time travel magic does not excuse any of these incompetencies. In DAI she is an incompetent leader and does more to hurt the cause of mage freedom than even the templars by showing that yes the mages will side with the evil empire if freed from the watchful eye of the templars.

[Nefla]

I get the impression that people find her a special snowflake Mary-Sue. I haven't read the books so I can't agree or disagree but in the game she is entirely forgettable and I find zero reason to like or dislike her. Even her boss battle has no lead up or fanfare, just an enemy with a bigger health bar labeled Fiona. Very easy to miss.

[Don Lionheart]

Thanks for reposting, I must have missed it when you posted it the first time, and then I couldn't remember which topic it was later.  Sorry for making you repost!  Haha.

[JasonPogo]

This is the BSN.  It survives on hate and irrational thinking.  I am no exemption.  That being said I do not hate Fiona.  I thought she was fine in the book and in the game.  Yes she turned her people over to Tavinter but it's not like she had any choice.  The Templars and the Tavinter themselves would have just wiped out her people.  So she tried to save as many as she could.

[LadyVaJedi]

I never read the novel dealing with Fiona. I am wondering how did she lose the taint?

[Giantdeathrobot]

Posted this in response to you asking the question in another topic, so here you go again.

 

There are two camps of people who hate her, with some overlap.

The first camp hates her because she comes off as a character from a bad fan fiction in the novels because of how much of a special snowflake she is. She upended what people who read the book after playing the game, considered established canon regarding Alister for no discernable reason making the sister side quest make no sense, and all we get for that upending is a writer's pet that seems to have been designed to be the most super special awesome thing ever, to the point that it is eye roll worthy. "I'm a badass Grey warden, oh met a man, now I'm immune to the taint so we can have babies! Now I have a kid who is a prince, but he can never know about me because reasons. Peace out I'm off to become Grand Enchanter and free the mages because everyone loves me." Mary Sue used to be used a lot when talking about her pre-DAI.

The second camp hates her because she is a complete moron in DAI (which is also the reason why the term Mary Sue is used less often when talking about her than it used to be). She started a war against the templars with absolutely no plan on how to make the rebellion work beyond, "We deserve freedom." By dumb luck her people manage to get positioned in the most defensible city in the South thanks to the mercy of the Fereldan monarch. However the moment she hears (false) rumors that the templars are marching on Redcliffe her solution is not to plan with the ARL on how to best protect the village, but to betray his trust, ally with a foreign power that is incapable of assisting in the hypothetical situation she fears, and institute a rebellion. And to top it off, in the process she sells her people into slavery unknowingly. Then when she realizes that she is dealing with Darth Vader, her response is to whimper like a kicked puppy rather than trying to do anything about it. Hell she doesn't even help save the mages in their quest. And no, time travel magic does not excuse any of these incompetencies. In DAI she is an incompetent leader and does more to hurt the cause of mage freedom than even the templars by showing that yes the mages will side with the evil empire if freed from the watchful eye of the templars.

 

Don't forget the whole thing about having the Tranquil massacred by the Venatori literally right under her nose, with the player not being able to even bring it up to her. If she knew, it makes her an accomplice, if she didn't it makes her even more of an incompetent joke.

[Gileadan]

I don't hate Fiona, I pity her and I don't find her very likeable (didn't read the books). She makes some bad decisions and doesn't deal with the consequences very well.

 

That said, my trebuchets. You just don't run up to my beautiful trebuchets, mess up their paint job and expect to get away with that. Nope.

[Don Lionheart]

Posted this in response to you asking the question in another topic, so here you go again.

 

There are two camps of people who hate her, with some overlap.

The first camp hates her because she comes off as a character from a bad fan fiction in the novels because of how much of a special snowflake she is. She upended what people who read the book after playing the game, considered established canon regarding Alister for no discernable reason making the sister side quest make no sense, and all we get for that upending is a writer's pet that seems to have been designed to be the most super special awesome thing ever, to the point that it is eye roll worthy. "I'm a badass Grey warden, oh met a man, now I'm immune to the taint so we can have babies! Now I have a kid who is a prince, but he can never know about me because reasons. Peace out I'm off to become Grand Enchanter and free the mages because everyone loves me." Mary Sue used to be used a lot when talking about her pre-DAI.

The second camp hates her because she is a complete moron in DAI (which is also the reason why the term Mary Sue is used less often when talking about her than it used to be). She started a war against the templars with absolutely no plan on how to make the rebellion work beyond, "We deserve freedom." By dumb luck her people manage to get positioned in the most defensible city in the South thanks to the mercy of the Fereldan monarch. However the moment she hears (false) rumors that the templars are marching on Redcliffe her solution is not to plan with the ARL on how to best protect the village, but to betray his trust, ally with a foreign power that is incapable of assisting in the hypothetical situation she fears, and institute a rebellion. And to top it off, in the process she sells her people into slavery unknowingly. Then when she realizes that she is dealing with Darth Vader, her response is to whimper like a kicked puppy rather than trying to do anything about it. Hell she doesn't even help save the mages in their quest. And no, time travel magic does not excuse any of these incompetencies. In DAI she is an incompetent leader and does more to hurt the cause of mage freedom than even the templars by showing that yes the mages will side with the evil empire if freed from the watchful eye of the templars.

 

Now that I've read this, I must say that I think the first group's concerns about her are overridden because it's explained that she only went back to the Circle because the she could not become a Warden again.  Grey Wardens are not infertile, they just have a hard time having children in the first place, so Fiona having the baby is completely reasonable if not a difficult thing to have accomplished.  The way I saw it is she's no different than any PC who happens to have a lot of good and incredible things happen to her.  However I do agree that the Goldanna quest conflict is somewhat unsettling, especially because I had never considered the impact Fiona being Alistair's mother had on that.

 

As far as the second group, that's more of a valid point to me because she probably didn't think things through entirely when the rebellion was declared.  However, I still sympathize for her despite understanding where this group comes from, for I view her as someone who's just trying to do what was best for her people and being unsure what else she could do at this point.  I think anyone would be worried and act rashly if they heard Templars were coming to wipe you out, though her decision to choose Tevinter instead of Teagan was foolish.

 

That said, I'll consent she made poor decisions, but I can't agree with the hatred that comes from them.  I believe the pity comment above this post is probably a better outlook, in my opinion, if you don't already like her.

[vetlet]

I think she is a total muppet for siding with Tevinter, but don't hate her. I would have liked to seen further quests to do with her though.

[frankf43]

I get the impression that people find her a special snowflake Mary-Sue. I haven't read the books so I can't agree or disagree but in the game she is entirely forgettable and I find zero reason to like or dislike her. Even her boss battle has no lead up or fanfare, just an enemy with a bigger health bar labeled Fiona. Very easy to miss.

 This I don't hate or like her at all in fact I find her very forgettable.

[Ashagar]

I don't hate her per say but she is one of the least competent leaders I have seen in a game who doesn't get always get themselves killed and that's only because she survives because you went for the mages.

 

She was in one of the most defendable fortresses in southern thadas under the protection of the king of Ferelden. Even if the Templars had shown up its unlikely in the extreme they could have taken the castle in the face of the Arl's forces and before the king's forces arrived to save them. However she commits treason against the king who provided her protection drives out the Arl and his forces, sells her people into slavery and then there is the grim and horrific fate of the tranquil just to make shard finding skulls.

[Don Lionheart]

I get the impression that people find her a special snowflake Mary-Sue. I haven't read the books so I can't agree or disagree but in the game she is entirely forgettable and I find zero reason to like or dislike her. Even her boss battle has no lead up or fanfare, just an enemy with a bigger health bar labeled Fiona. Very easy to miss.

 

 

 This I don't hate or like her at all in fact I find her very forgettable.

 

To both of these points, I agree that for anyone who hasn't read the books, her character is indeed forgettable after the Mage Rebellion quest, which is unfortunate because I really do like her character and would loved to have seen deeper involvement from whoever you ally with.  That said, I haven't sided with Templars yet, so I may not feel the same way after I try siding with them. 

 

I think she is a total muppet for siding with Tevinter, but don't hate her. I would have liked to seen further quests to do with her though.

 

Like I wrote above, I totally agree that more quests with her would have been nice, or at least more dialogue.  I think she says the same 5 lines after the quest is over, haha.

[Steelcan]

good gods I am so glad I can end her after siding with the templars

[Laughing_Man]

There is no real reason to hate Fiona because of the events in DA:I, she was handed the idiot ball. That's like Force Major.

[Nefla]

To both of these points, I agree that for anyone who hasn't read the books, her character is indeed forgettable after the Mage Rebellion quest, which is unfortunate because I really do like her character and would loved to have seen deeper involvement from whoever you ally with.  That said, I haven't sided with Templars yet, so I may not feel the same way after I try siding with them. 

 

 

Like I wrote above, I totally agree that more quests with her would have been nice, or at least more dialogue.  I think she says the same 5 lines after the quest is over, haha.

It's just lazy in my opinion. Relying on the assumption that people read the book so they don't have to do any character develop or spend much effort on her in the game. I feel they did this with Celine, Briala, and Gaspard as well. The writers assume I already know who these people are or care about what happens to them, well I don't and since the game didn't give me any insight or reason to care, I never will. Even Varric suffers from this. He feels like a shallow cameo rather than a fleshed out character because "hey everyone remembers Varric and already likes him!" if I hadn't played DA2 I'd have been like "who is this random guy and why is he here?"

[Scofield]

I dont hate her, she is a character in a video game, nothing more, she is a tad silly though

[Ranadiel Marius]

Now that I've read this, I must say that I think the first group's concerns about her are overridden because it's explained that she only went back to the Circle because the she could not become a Warden again.  Grey Wardens are not infertile, they just have a hard time having children in the first place, so Fiona having the baby is completely reasonable if not a difficult thing to have accomplished.  The way I saw it is she's no different than any PC who happens to have a lot of good and incredible things happen to her.  However I do agree that the Goldanna quest conflict is somewhat unsettling, especially because I had never considered the impact Fiona being Alistair's mother had on that.

 

As far as the second group, that's more of a valid point to me because she probably didn't think things through entirely when the rebellion was declared.  However, I still sympathize for her despite understanding where this group comes from, for I view her as someone who's just trying to do what was best for her people and being unsure what else she could do at this point.  I think anyone would be worried and act rashly if they heard Templars were coming to wipe you out, though her decision to choose Tevinter instead of Teagan was foolish.

 

That said, I'll consent she made poor decisions, but I can't agree with the hatred that comes from them.  I believe the pity comment above this post is probably a better outlook, in my opinion, if you don't already like her.

For the first camp it is the combination of factors, "I'm a badass grey warden! Now I'm the first and only known person to become free of the taint, and no is bothering to study me to figure out how the heck that happened. Now I'm the mother of a main character! Now I'm failing upwards and becoming grand enchanter." This is the sort of crappy writing that you see in fan fiction....BAD fan fiction. There is the argument that PCs also have special snow flake syndrome, but a. that doesn't mean it is good writing, b. it is generally possible to downplay that somewhat as a PC in Bioware games, and c. it still reminds people of bad fan fiction which is the sort of stuff that infuriates people to no end.

 

I would sypathize with her somewhat, except for the fact that she outright says that she would do it again. This is not a sympathetic character. This is a moron who is incapable of understanding how badly she f'ed up and due to her position of authority is going to continue f'ing things up for the mages.

 

 

To both of these points, I agree that for anyone who hasn't read the books, her character is indeed forgettable after the Mage Rebellion quest, which is unfortunate because I really do like her character and would loved to have seen deeper involvement from whoever you ally with.  That said, I haven't sided with Templars yet, so I may not feel the same way after I try siding with them. 

Ser Badass Barris is so much better than Fiona. He does more to help mages by himself in a single war table mission than Fiona does over the entire game. He is dedicated to the Templar's true mission of protecting both mages and normal people. You might not be able to talk to him in Skyhold, but that is because he is out in the world being awesome and helping people.

[Mirth]

Mostly - because there is something inherently wrong with a Grand Enchanter being so utterly stupid, and weak willed, as displayed by Fiona.
I'm not even counting the "start rebellion for freedom then sell out your army for slavery" part.

[turuzzusapatuttu]

Fiona: her only mistake was trusting Alexius and the Tevinter mages, in fact I think that disbanding the Circles was the right thing to do. Still better than Vivienne, who wouldn't do anything new for the Mage-Templar war if she were elected as new Divine, because we know that Vivienne, as Divine Victoria, is only capable of returning to the previous situation.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

I don't care for her. She's too much of a has been special snowflake that comes off as wanting pity.

 

Fiona: "I was special, I was important but now I'm not and, I made a dumb choice so, you MUST pity me."

 

Sorry but I don't pity people who suffer as a result of decisions they made themselves - you made your bed, lie in it.

[berelinde]

I'm not sure I understand the vehemence of the hatred she gets, but I do understand where it comes from. In The Calling, she comes across as a bit of a writer's pet. Honestly, though, her actions leading up to In Hushed Whispers are pretty shortsighted. I don't hate her. I think her backstory makes her kinda interesting. But she doesn't have a lot of dialogue, and she has absolutely zero charisma. I have a hard time imagining how she was able to rise to her former position... and I have a hard time imagining what Maric saw in her. I don't blame him for having sex with her. He was a widower, so it wasn't as if he was breaking any vows. But I find myself thinking that if he really wanted to get laid, she could not have been his biggest temptation, unless it was a case of "Well, if we're all going to die, I might as well, and you're the only woman here." IDK. I'm attracted to men. I am capable of appreciating female beauty and I am as capable of friendship as the next person, but it's very, very rare for me to meet a woman in fiction or real life who makes me think "Yeah, I want that." But I'm sure that people who are exclusively attracted to women are equally indifferent about men I find attractive, so there you go.

[Hurbster]

I'm guessing that whoever wrote the book didn't write her part in the game. All I saw was rapid backtracking from the special snowflake status she had.

[Soulinet]

I think she should be available for Judgement in Skyhold. And I wouldn't be kind to her. She is as incompetent as she is insufferable.