1363 réponses à ce sujet

[SnakeCode]

pretty likely to you... you mean. That's because I don't have any impossible premise that you have to prove, and I still don't know what your arguments are proving!

 

As for fiona's judgement, I can only believe that any rational being would believe the advice of their advisors just like the Inquisitor. If the Inquisitor's advisors were giving **** advice and you know no other way, then ofcourse I don't blame them for taking it. It was a **** situation with compromised entourage and bad advice. She was swindled but the circumstances ensured she would be that way. There was no malice in her intentions and circumstances enforced by entrappment set her on that path. That is not negligence, that's entrapment which you people don't care for. Thus it is impossible for her to know better.

Not good enough. She was brought up being taught what Tevinter is just like everyone else. She would have no reason to trust them. As I said before, all she had to do was NOT take them at their word. That's it!

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

pretty likely to you... you mean. That's because I don't have any impossible premise that you have to prove, and I still don't know what your arguments are proving!

 

As for fiona's judgement, I can only believe that any rational being would believe the advice of their advisors just like the Inquisitor. If the Inquisitor's advisors were giving **** advice and you know no other way, then ofcourse I don't blame them for taking it. It was a **** situation with compromised entourage and bad advice. She was swindled but the circumstances ensured she would be that way. There was no malice in her intentions and circumstances enforced by entrappment set her on that path. That is not negligence, that's entrapment which you people don't care for. Thus it is impossible for her to know better.

We're trying to prove that Fiona knew or should have known things that should have made her doubt the narrative Alexius was putting into her ears, even discounting the ad hominem that this was a Tevinter Magister. All she had to do to know how solid the castle was was ask Teagan (which she may or may not have done,) and if she wanted to know how well the Templars are holding up she can probably spare some people to do a little sneaking around and see what they've got to throw at them.

[Sports72Xtrm]

We're trying to prove that Fiona knew or should have known things that would have made her doubt the narrative Alexius was putting into her ears, even discounting the ad hominem that this was a Tevinter Magister. All she had to do to know how solid the castle was was ask Teagan (which she may or may not have done,) and if she wanted to know how well the Templars are holding up she can probably spare some people to do a little sneaking around and see if they have decent siege engines (without which a decent castle makes things pretty difficult for any attacker.)

Oh so teagan is given all this credibility but the other thousands of people (including a ferelden arl) telling her to take the tevinter deal isn't? Where's the consistency and reasoning in that?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Oh so teagan is given all this credibility but the other thousands of people (including a ferelden arl) telling her to take the tevinter deal isn't? Where's the consistency and reasoning in that?

A: Where do you get the number from?

B: Wulff isn't the one who knows or can easily inquire about the strength of Redcliffe Castle's walls. Teagan is. Teagan's credibility doesn't come from the fact that he has a fief, but from which fief that is.

[SnakeCode]

Oh so teagan is given all this credibility but the other thousands of people (including a ferelden arl) telling her to take the tevinter deal isn't? Where's the consistency and reasoning in that?

And you're pulling these numbers from...?

[Sports72Xtrm]

A: Where do you get the number from?

B: Wulff isn't the one who knows or can easily inquire about the strength of Redcliffe Castle's walls. Teagan is.

A. The fact that there were pro tevinter alliance people among her rebellion ranks. She tells you it's part of the reason she agreed.

B. Teagan might not be impartial to tell the truth of their chances of survival so she can't just ask him and take his word for it. Aren't you people the guys that claim she was suppose to say to question everything? wulf is an unbiased party who is most likely to be objective since he has no dog in the fight. Redcliffe's defenses are legendary, I'll grant them that, but it has been sacked before, including by calenhad and the warden.

 

 

And you're pulling these numbers from...?

See answer a above

[SnakeCode]

And how did you go from a conversation with an npc or two to "thousands?" That's quite a stretch.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

A. The fact that there were pro tevinter alliance people among her rebellion ranks. She tells you it's part of the reason she agreed.

B. Teagan might not be impartial to tell the truth of their chances of survival so she can't just ask him and take his word for it. wulf is an unbiased party who is most likely to be objective since he has no dog in the fight. Redcliffe's defenses are legendary, I'll grant them that, but it has been sacked before, including by calenhad and the warden.

A: Yes, that's part of the entrapment we agree happened, and are trying to figure out whether or not Fiona could have seen were she actually thinking. My question here is where do you get that exact number? For that matter how is the exact number of people telling a lie relevant to whether or not it should be believed?

B: I believe Snake has a counterargument for that, though I'm uncertain he wishes to give it again.

[LobselVith8]

Oh so teagan is given all this credibility but the other thousands of people (including a ferelden arl) telling her to take the tevinter deal isn't? Where's the consistency and reasoning in that?

 

It was an ugly situation. Tevinter spies infiltrated Redcliffe as refugees, rumors about a large templar force was suspected of being assembled to attack Redcliffe (although it seems the templars simply went to Therinfal Redoubt instead), Alexius using time magic to take advantage of the situation, and Arl Wulff advocated the alliance with Tevinter.

[Sports72Xtrm]

And how did you go from a conversation with an npc or two to "thousands?" That's quite a stretch.

well it wasn't just two. fiona says there were tevinter agents posing as mage refugees pouring out of nowhere pressuring her to take the deal. the fact that she says allying with tevinter wasn't her first choice should be enough to convince anyone that does it only out of desperation, and that she saw no other choice to anyone with eyes and ears and didn't have a bias against her.

[X Equestris]

A. The fact that there were pro tevinter alliance people among her rebellion ranks. She tells you it's part of the reason she agreed.
B. Teagan might not be impartial to tell the truth of their chances of survival so she can't just ask him and take his word for it. wulf is an unbiased party who is most likely to be objective since he has no dog in the fight. Redcliffe's defenses are legendary, I'll grant them that, but it has been sacked before, including by calenhad and the warden.

There were some pro-Tevinter rebels, but many of the advocates for the alliance were Venatori agents. Also, when Fiona speaks about the numbers of the rebellion, she says hundreds. Plenty of mages are uneasy about the alliance, so clearly saying thousands supported it is incorrect,

I would hardly call Wulff unbiased. He really wants the mages out of the country. If a solution presented itself that ended in the mages leaving Ferelden, and one did, he would advocate it, which he did.

[Hazegurl]

 

Now, what people may or may not know (though I'm willing to bet a lot of people who read this are going to know by virtue of the fact they're reading forums at all) is Fiona's history as a Grey Warden (which has a single dialogue choice explaining it in DA:I) who was accompanied by King Maric and went along with other Grey Wardens to search for the previously Warden-Commander of Orlais, who'd been captured by The Architect when he went on his Calling, during the events of Dragon Age: The Calling.  Without going into too much detail for the sake of saving space and time, Fiona ends up losing the taint within her and is no longer a Grey Warden at the end of the novel, and also gave birth to Maric's illegitimate son (and king in my canon playthrough), Alistair.

 

So, with that incredibly brief backstory of Fiona established, my question remains: why do players hate Fiona so much?

From this it seems like you're implying that Fiona being a former GW, sexing up a King, and giving birth to his baby means she should be liked.  I don't care about her being a GW or her deeds as one, I don't care about her giving birth to the dude my Warden eventually has killed.  She didn't have to sell out her people into slavery, she was well protected by a Fereldan Monarch and Arl. She chose to spit on their goodwill, turned a blind eye to the missing Tranquil, and stupidly sold herself and her people into enslavement. She put the Mages in a worse position than they were in before due to her foolishness of rebelling instead of waiting. She's a moron and it sucks that I can't recruit the Mages without giving her a free pass.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

the fact that she says allying with tevinter wasn't her first choice should be enough to convince anyone that does it only out of desperation, and that she saw no other choice to anyone with eyes and ears and didn't have a bias against her.

She had an alliance. One that provided her with a castle. As for the rest of it, nobody's arguing she didn't see what was happening as a desperate situation. We're arguing that she had reasons to know better. So I'm not sure what this argument is meant to do.

[Sports72Xtrm]

A: Yes, that's part of the entrapment we agree happened, and are trying to figure out whether or not Fiona could have seen were she actually thinking. My question here is where do you get that exact number? For that matter how is the exact number of people telling a lie relevant to whether or not it should be believed?

B: I believe Snake has a counterargument for that, though I'm uncertain he wishes to give it again.

So if the exact number isn't exactly a "thousand" that means I'm wrong right? King of circular reasoning. But as I addressed snaked, she told the inquisitor of tevinter agents infiltrating her entourage which I'm sure you know and were spreading panic and urging for the tevinter alliance.

[Steelcan]

As for Goldanna, DAO is not invalidated by Fiona being Alistair's mom. Alistair wasn't raised by her duh, he grew up with Goldanna as his sister. No conflict. It's like no one has heard of step, foster or adoption before. LOL

e.

he grew up in a Chantry, he never met her before

 

[SnakeCode]

A: Yes, that's part of the entrapment we agree happened, and are trying to figure out whether or not Fiona could have seen were she actually thinking. My question here is where do you get that exact number? For that matter how is the exact number of people telling a lie relevant to whether or not it should be believed?

B: I believe Snake has a counterargument for that, though I'm uncertain he wishes to give it again.

Hardly worth saying it again, for it only to fall upon deaf ears. People will believe what they want to believe, no matter if logic or even evidence points to the contrary.

[Sports72Xtrm]

She had an alliance. One that provided her with a castle. As for the rest of it, nobody's arguing she didn't see what was happening as a desperate situation. We're arguing that she had reasons to know better. So I'm not sure what this argument is meant to do.

How would she know better you tell me with the agents, an arl, and the fear of being annihilated pressuring her to take the alliance? Not to mention, she didn't decide to swap redcliffe for protection, it was that her people would be co-opted into tevinter in exchange for servitude. Are we even seeing the same desperate person who was made to believe she had no choice? If we are truly arguing she should no better, you tell me how she could verify her people would get out of redcliffe alive that wasn't a gamble?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

So if the exact number isn't exactly a "thousand" that means I'm wrong right? King of circular reasoning. But as I addressed snaked, she told the inquisitor of tevinter agents infiltrating her entourage which I'm sure you know and were spreading panic and urging for the tevinter alliance.

Since the name of the game seems to be "Logical Terminology E-Peen Swinging" I think you're guilty of Strawmanning. I'm not arguing that the exact number is relevant; in fact I'm arguing that it's really not since the number of times you hear information doesn't necessarily mean it's true. (As Fiona discovered, and as I'd argue she should have known all along.)

[Sports72Xtrm]

Since the name of the game seems to be "Logical Terminology E-Peen Swinging" I think you're guilty of Strawmanning. I'm not arguing that the exact number is relevant; in fact I'm arguing that it's really not since the number of times you hear information doesn't necessarily mean it's true. (As Fiona discovered, and as I'd argue she should have known all along.)

Then why is it necessary to clarify or even mention? Tevinter agents infiltrated her enterouge and encouraged the alliance, this is already established as fact. Are we questioning the validity of that? What relevance would it bring to clarify the validity of that statement?

 

In a life or death situation, if you get a bunch of people who seem credible whispering in your ear that something is going to happen and can't clarify, what other information can you go by?

[thesuperdarkone2]

Then why is it necessary to clarify or even mention? Tevinter agents infiltrated her enterouge and encouraged the alliance, this is already established as fact. Are we questioning the validity of that? What relevance would it bring to clarify the validity of that statement?

 

In a life or death situation, if you get a bunch of people who seem credible whispering in your ear that something is going to happen and can't clarify, what other information can you go by?

Simple, pro-templars need more justification for why they chose their side and try to make Fiona's idiotic move even more idiotic to say Templars are better. Still haven't convinced me given how Lucius could wind up destroying the Templar Order.

[Sports72Xtrm]

She had an alliance. One that provided her with a castle. As for the rest of it, nobody's arguing she didn't see what was happening as a desperate situation. We're arguing that she had reasons to know better. So I'm not sure what this argument is meant to do.

This alliance with tevinter had a better chance for survival. She would go to tevinter and be a slave a little while and then can become an citizen of tevinter. while the weak and children didn't have a fight. The former terms of alexius was more promising and would save ferelden a lot of collateral damage, what else is there to say?

[Steelcan]

This may be slightly OT, but....do people get this worked up about characters in TV shows? I mean yeah, ok, there are a few things to criticize in Fiona's presentation - basically I agree with Dean's take on the matter - in the books and in the game, but I don't find that a reason for strong emotions. If she were more prominent, I'd feel insulted by the writers for expecting me to accept her as a valid leader of the mage rebellion, and I vaguely recall feeling exactly that for her being overly emotional in one of the books, but in the end she's not important enough to get worked up over. I find Vivienne's enforced conversational superiority much more annoying since it comes at the cost of my character's intelligence.

In any case I'd not hate her rather than tell her writer(s) they did a bad job.

 

Game of Thrones comes to mind

 

a Danaerys debate makes an elf thread look tame
 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Then why is it necessary to clarify or even mention? Tevinter agents infiltrated her enterouge and encouraged the alliance, this is already established as fact. Are we questioning the validity of that? What relevance would it bring to clarify the validity of that statement?

We are not, in fact, questioning whether or not that happened. What we are questioning is whether or not that should have been sufficient, to which the post you replied to is relevant. I do not believe it should, since Fiona should have known to check with Teagan as to what their castle can take, and with other mages (or Teagan's men, for that matter) as to what they could expect to have to take. (If you intend to counter that by asking how honest Teagan would be with them, I'd suggest you first consider Teagan's habit of making clear how grim things are in the Redcliffe defense.)

 

 

This alliance with tevinter had a better chance for survival. She would go to tevinter and be a slave a little while and then can become an citizen of tevinter. while the weak and children didn't have a fight. The former terms of alexius was more promising and would save ferelden a lot of collateral damage, what else is there to say?

How does she get there? That's relevant to any plan that requires leaving a castle, and especially relevant to whether or not that plan has a better chance of survival than the plan where you stay in the castle.

[thesuperdarkone2]

I think people boasting about Redcliffe's defenses are confusing Redcliffe CASTLE with Redcliffe VILLAGE. The village is not some invincible stronghold. Just look at how it got trashed in DAO by undead and darkspawn. 

[SnakeCode]

This alliance with tevinter had a better chance for survival. She would go to tevinter and be a slave a little while and then can become an citizen of tevinter. while the weak and children didn't have a fight. The former terms of alexius was more promising and would save ferelden a lot of collateral damage, what else is there to say?

Yes better chance for survival, when the terms of slavery were to be placed in the Tevinter army for ten years (whilst they are at war) including the children. Better chance for survival what?