As the rebel mages.Well those rogue Templars are killing Ferelden citizens. Don't see the army doing anything about them.
Breaking off from the Chantry not the same as declaring war against a sovereignty state. Attacking Ferelden means starting a war, which they officially haven't sanctioned. Even their lunatic groups in the Hinterlands don't do that bit.
Except they wouldn't BE attacking Ferelden, they'd be attacking the Venatori. If anything, they'd be seen by the people as liberators of the town and AIDING Ferelden.
Which is a large part of the case that I and others are making against Fiona's decision being at all intelligent.
In what way?
In what way?
You're arguing that the Venatori aren't very good at keeping Templars from doing whatever they want. Which is true. The people directly overseeing her sanctuary at Redcliffe had an army of non-mages to use for that very purpose, and they were thrown out. The point I've been pounding on this whole time was that she should much sooner have trusted to Teagan than to Alexius. There were risks involved in doing so, but this was not really the best way of mitigating those risks.
You're arguing that the Venatori aren't very good at keeping Templars from doing whatever they want. Which is true. The people directly overseeing her sanctuary at Redcliffe had an army of non-mages to use for that very purpose, and they were thrown out. The point I've been pounding on this whole time was that she should much sooner have trusted to Teagan than to Alexius. There were risks involved in doing so, but this was not really the best way of mitigating those risks.
Whether or not she would even have been able to go with Teagan is unknown, since the Venatori used their weird time magic. I think it's implied that the Venatori show up at the same time the mages do (or very soon after the mages do), so it wasn't like Fiona and co. could sit down and talk to Teagan.
The word "sanctuary" implies some degree of protection in just about any definition I've heard.
Well those rogue Templars are killing Ferelden citizens. Don't see the army doing anything about them.
Whether or not she would even have been able to go with Teagan is unknown, since the Venatori used their weird time magic. I think it's implied that the Venatori show up at the same time the mages do (or very soon after the mages do), so it wasn't like Fiona and co. could sit down and talk to Teagan.
You've lost me. Is the implication that Fiona has to negotiate with Teagan? Because I was rather under the impression that Fiona had already had an arrangement with whoever wound up on the throne which guaranteed Teagan's help, and that that's how the Venatori (who arrived there at the same time Fiona did because they used time magic to retroactively infiltrate her group) managed to get enough of a foothold to take Redcliffe.
Except they wouldn't BE attacking Ferelden, they'd be attacking the Venatori. If anything, they'd be seen by the people as liberators of the town and AIDING Ferelden.
sanc·tu·ar·y
ˈsaNGk(t)SHəˌwerē/
noun
noun: sanctuary; plural noun: sanctuaries
1.
a place of refuge or safety.
So yes, it does imply some degree of protection, but it's important to note that it's not specific as to what degree of protection, nor does it discuss what they'll be protected from. Protection from random attacks on mages? Sure, I would guess that. A place for them to rest and recover? Yes, that for sure. Protection from an all out assault by Templars? I can't stretch it that far. I couldn't even stretch it to mean a small assault by Templars because they'd essentially be declaring full support for mage independence by that point, which, as far as we know, was never declared by any nation other than Tevinter.
sanc·tu·ar·yˈsaNGk(t)SHəˌwerē/nounnoun: sanctuary; plural noun: sanctuaries1.a place of refuge or safety.So yes, it does imply some degree of protection, but it's important to note that it's not specific as to what degree of protection, nor does it discuss what they'll be protected from. Protection from random attacks on mages? Sure, I would guess that. A place for them to rest and recover? Yes, that for sure. Protection from an all out assault by Templars? I can't stretch it that far. I couldn't even stretch it to mean a small assault by Templars because they'd essentially be declaring full support for mage independence by that point, which, as far as we know, was never declared by any nation other than Tevinter.
In context, I believe "protection from Templars to whatever degree the Templars force" would be a good guess as to what it means; what else do they need protection from? As for Alistair/Anora not wanting to look like they supported mage independence, how else is anyone likely to interpret even going as far as you've conceded?
You don't seem to be accounting for geography. Ferelden doesn't need to protect then formally because they took them into their land. For the Templars to get at them they have to siege Redcliffe Castle.
This is a fair point, however Ferelden could also just decide to let them into Redcliffe and not mount any defense for them. Again, my Alistair wouldn't do that, but it's a possibility that must be accounted for when having this discussion.
In context, I believe "protection from Templars to whatever degree the Templars force" would be a good guess as to what it means; what else do they need protection from? As for Alistair/Anora not wanting to look like they supported mage independence, how else is anyone likely to interpret even going as far as you've conceded?
They need protection from hate crimes against mages, since people fear and/or don't trust them, for one thing. They also just need shelter and protection from the elements, hence the "refuge" part of the definition. And for the second point, the way I see it, they've done nothing but offer humanitarian aid. Humanitarian aid, even in the real world, is something completely different from backing a particular side's goals. It's why the rules of war dictate that you're not supposed to kill injured soldiers, or kill those surrendering. Ferelden has done nothing but aid them humanely, protection for women and children, etc, even if they're harboring the fighters too.
This is a fair point, however Ferelden could also just decide to let them into Redcliffe and not mount any defense for them. Again, my Alistair wouldn't do that, but it's a possibility that must be accounted for when having this discussion.
not really
"Oh you can come in and we will risk alienating the Chantry and potentially suffer attack by templars but we aren't going to do anything to help you in any way whatsoever"
They need protection from hate crimes against mages, since people fear and/or don't trust them, for one thing. They also just need shelter and protection from the elements, hence the "refuge" part of the definition. And for the second point, the way I see it, they've done nothing but offer humanitarian aid. Humanitarian aid, even in the real world, is something completely different from backing a particular side's goals. It's why the rules of war dictate that you're not supposed to kill injured soldiers, or kill those surrendering. Ferelden has done nothing but aid them humanely, protection for women and children, etc, even if they're harboring the fighters too.
It's not like Anora's limiting her aid to giving them food and tents to use in whatever country they live in. She invited them into her kingdom. I know of no other situation in which accepting refugees into your country has come with the caveat that the people they're fleeing from are allowed to come in after them and kill them.
not really
"Oh you can come in and we will risk alienating the Chantry and potentially suffer attack by templars but we aren't going to do anything to help you in any way whatsoever"
Redcliffe Castle, while responsible for protecting the village, is not required to attack to attack the village, where the mages were located. Templars could come in and just kill the mages. Now, if the Templars went after the regular citizens too, that'd be different, and would likely result in retaliation.
Yeah, but it's not like Anora's limiting her aid to giving them food and tents to use wherever they can find. She invited them into her kingdom. I know of no other situation in which accepting refugees into your country has come with the caveat that the people they're fleeing from are allowed to come in after them and kill them.
Templars don't know whether or not the Ferelden army would protect the mages, it could give them pause in attacking. And while your point is well taken, it's not like they have an army at the border to stop the Templars from coming after the mages either. The fact that they're in Ferelden would certainly make the Templars hesitate, but it may not be enough to stop them from attacking at all. After all, the Inquisition was a group without it's own official land and no one chased them out, or even tried to. We just went places and did things.
Redcliffe Castle, while responsible for protecting the village, is not required to attack to attack the village, where the mages were located. Templars could come in and just kill the mages. Now, if the Templars went after the regular citizens too, that'd be different, and would likely result in retaliation.
A. It is absolutely absurd to beleive that in the event of an attack the mages would not be allowed to seek shelter
B. IIRC the venatori force them into the village, Teagan didn't
Redcliffe Castle, while responsible for protecting the village, is not required to attack to attack the village, where the mages were located. Templars could come in and just kill the mages. Now, if the Templars went after the regular citizens too, that'd be different, and would likely result in retaliation.
Templars don't know whether or not the Ferelden army would protect the mages, it could give them pause in attacking. And while your point is well taken, it's not like they have an army at the border to stop the Templars from coming after the mages either. The fact that they're in Ferelden would certainly make the Templars hesitate, but it may not be enough to stop them from attacking at all. After all, the Inquisition was a group without it's own official land and no one chased them out, or even tried to. We just went places and did things.
People absolutely antagonized the Inquisition (Mother Hevara and Chancellor Roderick come to mind, as does whoever it is who talks crap at Vivienne's party), and their goals were a lot more universal than those of the Templars. Even if I accepted that there's a parallel (which I'm not sure of) it strikes me as pretty seriously reaching to say that the Inquisition not being antagonized means the Templars won't be prevented from actions that harm a party the Crown of Ferelden has granted sanctuary to. (Again: that's partially because the Inquisition was antagonized.)
I know of no other situation in which accepting refugees into your country has come with the caveat that the people they're fleeing from are allowed to come in after them and kill them.
Western countries enforced conditions like these during the long Great Lakes crisis of the 1990s. Rwandan Patriotic Front troops were allowed access to refugee camps (and even, memorably, supplied by air-drop) because the RPF claimed it was hunting for génocidaires from Interahamwe. Many of those génocidaires surprisingly turned out to be Hutu women and children.
Western countries enforced conditions like these during the long Great Lakes crisis of the 1990s. Rwandan Patriotic Front troops were allowed access to refugee camps (and even, memorably, supplied by air-drop) because the RPF claimed it was hunting for génocidaires from Interahamwe. Many of those génocidaires surprisingly turned out to be Hutu women and children.
Was the RPF actually allowed to enter any of the Western Nations in question? Because the thing that had me convinced that Anora or Alistair or both intended to protect the mages from the Templars was the idea that if they didn't view fighting the Templars as an acceptable outcome, they wouldn't have made clear that the mages were welcome in Redcliffe; the most sure way of avoiding problems with the Templars (who are by this point completely off the rails and acting in a way that even their former allies and former superiors cannot predict or control) would be to just keep the whole thing out of their borders.
A. It is absolutely absurd to beleive that in the event of an attack the mages would not be allowed to seek shelter
B. IIRC the venatori force them into the village, Teagan didn't
Merely a possibility, as I said before. All things must be taken into consideration, after all. I'm not sure about B, but I doubt it was being "forced" into the village by Teagan so much as it would have been 100s or more mages would not all fit inside one castle.
People absolutely antagonized the Inquisition (Mother Hevara and Chancellor Roderick come to mind, as does whoever it is who talks crap at Vivienne's party), and their goals were a lot more universal than those of the Templars. Even if I accepted that there's a parallel (which I'm not sure of) it strikes me as pretty seriously reaching to say that the Inquisition not being antagonized means the Templars won't be prevented from actions that harm a party the Crown of Ferelden has granted sanctuary to. (Again: that's partially because the Inquisition was antagonized.)
The only point I was making is that the Inquisition was in no different a situation than the Templars were, nor the mages for that matter, when it comes to someplace they're allowed to be. We just set up camp in Haven (I believe there's a War Table mission about the guy who controls having not being happy about that, as a matter of fact), like the Templars and mages both just set up camps. Mages had a more legal right than any of the others because they were granted sanctuary at Redcliffe, come to think of it. The reason I drew the comparison is that we, the Inquisition, were going into sovereign nations' land with goals in mind, and, given, our goals were not to wipe out a particular faction, but we killed our fair share of people, and did not face any military resistance as a military organization (like the Templars) for entering Ferelden (or anywhere, actually). This was all in reference to your point about not being allowed to have the group that you're fleeing from follow you into the country providing sanctuary.
I still believe that people's hate for Fiona is not rooted in her decisions at Redcliffe. If you want to hate someone, you will always find reasons, but in the end it has more to do with you than with the character.
Yes, the Venatori takeover in Redcliffe feels contrived, but I'd rather blame the writers for that.
At the start of the war: "FREEDOM OR DEATH!!!!!"
She is getting her ass kicked and a lot of mages died: "LETS BECOME SLAVES! ITS OR ONLY HOPE!"
The funny part is that the bolded never happened.
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