1363 réponses à ce sujet

[o Ventus]

well that's a very important word you've inserted

why don't you tell us about it

The mages. How was this not incredibly obvious? What other 'people' does she have? 

[samb]

She isn't a Mary Sue but she definitely is something of a special snowflake. The established lore occasionally bends the rules for her. She first becomes pregnant as a grey warden (with king Maric's child no less.) Grey wardens supposedly cannot conceive a child due to the taint, but somehow she does. She then miraculously cures herself of the taint, so she won't eventually succumb to it as other wardens do. Bare in mind that the HoF is still attempting to achieve thisin Inquisition, some thirty odd years or so later. She then goes back to the circle as she isn't of any use to the wardens, since she can no longer sense darkspawn due to her being cured of the taint. Back in the circle she quickly becomes the highest ranking mage, despite not having had anything to do with the circles for such a long time.

 

So whilst she isn't a Mary Sue, she's still favoured more than most characters are.

I have a very different perspective.  You'll have to cite where it says Grey Wardens can't conceive children.  HoF was able to conceive a baby with Morrigan, nowhere does it say it is otherwise for female Wardens.  It would seem you misunderstood the lore rather than Fiona bending the rules. 

Her giving birth to Alistar and never raising him or getting recognition as her mother is really a tragic part of her story.  Not really something that I would personally hold against her since she is suffering for it.

I view her being cured of her taint as a prelude for HoF to finding a cure in the first place.  She showed that it was possible and HoF will make a reality.  Fiona was basically a set up for the real hero's deeds, she is patient zero, a plot device to advance the HoF's own story.  Hardly a flattering position. 

Her fast rise through the circle is hardly surprising since she was always a decent mage, nothing has ever contradicted that. 

 

Why was she so bad in DAI?  She turned from a strong, smart mage into an idiot.  I remember Viv criticizing the rebels for having no tact; rebelling after Anders bombed the Chantry was a poor PR move.  Siding with Alexius was even dumber, Teventiers are well known slavers how could that situation be any better than the circles.

[Aimi]

The mages. How was this not incredibly obvious? What other 'people' does she have?

that's certainly a way to unintentionally demonstrate my point

[X Equestris]

I have a very different perspective.  You'll have to cite where it says Grey Wardens can't conceive children.  HoF was able to conceive a baby with Morrigan, nowhere does it say it is otherwise for female Wardens.  It would seem you misunderstood the lore rather than Fiona bending the rules. 
Her giving birth to Alistar and never raising him or getting recognition as her mother is really a tragic part of her story.  Not really something that I would personally hold against her since she is suffering for it.
I view her being cured of her taint as a prelude for HoF to finding a cure in the first place.  She showed that it was possible and HoF will make a reality.  Fiona was basically a set up for the real hero's deeds, she is patient zero, a plot device to advance the HoF's own story.  Hardly a flattering position. 
Her fast rise through the circle is hardly surprising since she was always a decent mage, nothing has ever contradicted that. 
 
Why was she so bad in DAI?  She turned from a strong, smart mage into an idiot.  I remember Viv criticizing the rebels for having no tact; rebelling after Anders bombed the Chantry was a poor PR move.  Siding with Alexius was even dumber, Teventiers are well known slavers how could that situation be any better than the circles.

Gaider said that two Grey Wardens have never had children together. One Grey Warden and one non-Warden can, though it is more difficult.

[earl of the north]

Except she doesn't do it for "her people" meaning mages or she wouldn't threaten to start an intermage war.  "Her people" literally just means "people with her opinion."

 

Indeed, she couldn't even convince a majority of mages to agree with her, she used the death of Wynne to side step (with Rhys voting the opposite of Wynne's factions position) not having that support to lead 'her people' in to a bloody war, with no plan and no real chance of success.....how can she be viewed with anything but contempt, she betrayed 'her people' not just once (with her political power play) but twice by selling their supposed freedom to Tevinter.

[samb]

Indeed, she couldn't even convince a majority of mages to agree with her, she used the death of Wynne to side step (with Rhys voting the opposite of Wynne's factions position) not having that support to lead 'her people' in to a bloody war, with no plan and no real chance of success.....how can she be viewed with anything but contempt, she betrayed 'her people' not just once (with her political power play) but twice by selling their supposed freedom to Tevinter.

That really irked me.  Declaring independence and then willingly become indentured to Tevintia is just contradictory on so many levels.  Why not just stay in the Circles then?

[Gold Dragon]

Gaider said that two Grey Wardens have never had children together. One Grey Warden and one non-Warden can, though it is more difficult.

Tho he also DID say that usage of magic might also make 2 wardens have a child together too.

[Aimi]

That really irked me.  Declaring independence and then willingly become indentured to Tevintia is just contradictory on so many levels.  Why not just stay in the Circles then?

[Don Lionheart]

She isn't a Mary Sue but she definitely is something of a special snowflake. The established lore occasionally bends the rules for her. She first becomes pregnant as a grey warden (with king Maric's child no less.) Grey wardens supposedly cannot conceive a child due to the taint, but somehow she does. She then miraculously cures herself of the taint, so she won't eventually succumb to it as other wardens do. Bare in mind that the HoF is still attempting to achieve thisin Inquisition, some thirty odd years or so later. She then goes back to the circle as she isn't of any use to the wardens, since she can no longer sense darkspawn due to her being cured of the taint. Back in the circle she quickly becomes the highest ranking mage, despite not having had anything to do with the circles for such a long time.

 

So whilst she isn't a Mary Sue, she's still favoured more than most characters are.

 

 

Bold #1: where is this ever stated?

 

Bold #2: No she didn't. She was somehow cured, but she didn't cure herself. She even says that she doesn't know how it happened.

 

Bold #3: She didn't 'quickly' becomes the highest-ranking mage. As of 9:37 Dragon she was First Enchanter before being elected Grand Enchanter. That's a 27 year gap in between The Calling and Inquisition. Not at all inconceivable.

 

 

First off, Grey Wardens can have children. Teh taint only makes it harder for a grey warden to have a child with a regular person and impossible for two grey wardens to have child. Maric wasn't a Warden so it isn't lore-breaking for Fiona to get pregnant. Don't forget how the HoF can get Morrigan pregnant despite being a Warden.

 

Second, she was cured because of an amulet that was destroyed during the process of turning her into a ghoul. She didn't get cured out of nowhere. Blame the Architect.

 

Third, you can have that point about becoming grand enchanter but I think it was more so that Fiona could appear again, regardless of how it was possible.

 

Thank you to the bottom two quotes for replying to the first one from SnakeCode for me, because reading that almost made my head explode, haha.  I so appreciate his underlying point of her not being a Mary Sue, but the misstatement of facts was driving me nuts, haha.  I also feel compelled to point out that It's not as if people have been searching for a cure to the calling for those thirty odd years since Fiona was cured.  The Wardens tried to figure it out I believe, but they couldn't, so she went back to the circle.  After that, that was it until the HoF went off on his journey in search of a cure, which started sometime within the last 9 years (9 because of when Witch Hunt takes place), and I'm willing to bet it's somewhere closer to present day because Morrigan says that "he was with us...for a time" if you romanced her and went through the Eluvian with her.  So the actual amount of time for research for a cure is incredibly miniscule.  Side note though, I wonder if the HoF is working with The Architect if he survived Awakening?

[BAC PARTY CITY]

No one hates her. Fiona is cool

[Sports72Xtrm]

does it ever occur to anyone that maybe they just believe the circles are wrong in principle? locking up mages, their forum for concerns easily dismissed by muggles who fear and at worse despise them unless they act docile, tevinter is like that too but at least its by fellow mages who understands the same plights that they have to go through. civil disobedience was their best play to change things, when it failed they decided to go tevinter.

[TheLastArchivist]

I think the whole mage conflict would have been more interesting if they had placed Calpernia as Alexius' slave and contact with Ferelden mages.

 

But later on, as the Inquisitor helps the templars, Corypheus turns his back on Alexius due to his incompetence. 

 

That's when he tries to sacrifice her and the rest of his slaves to please Corypheus and she rebels, urging them to help her kill him.

 

She then seizes this opportunity to become Corypheus' new general and free the rest of her people in Tevinter.

 

 

 

Same logic could be adapted to the templar situation.

[TheAwesomologist]

I never read any of the books or comics so I have no feelings on her character before the game. In game though she's just like everyone else in Thedas; unable to do anything right unless the player intervenes. I don't see why she gets any more hate than any other NPC in the game.

[Maiafay]

She isn't a Mary Sue but she definitely is something of a special snowflake. The established lore occasionally bends the rules for her. She first becomes pregnant as a grey warden (with king Maric's child no less.) Grey wardens supposedly cannot conceive a child due to the taint, but somehow she does. She then miraculously cures herself of the taint, so she won't eventually succumb to it as other wardens do. Bare in mind that the HoF is still attempting to achieve this in Inquisition, some thirty odd years or so later. She then goes back to the circle as she isn't of any use to the wardens, since she can no longer sense darkspawn due to her being cured of the taint. Back in the circle she quickly becomes the highest ranking mage, despite not having had anything to do with the circles for such a long time.

So whilst she isn't a Mary Sue, she's still favoured more than most characters are.

Most characters? Really...what about Morrigan, Alistair, Hawk, Hero of Ferelden, Varric, Anders, Cole, Dorian, Merril, Iron bull, Sera, Fenris, Solas, and pretty much anyone who isn't "typical" of their race, creed or society? I can go into specifics if you'd like, but I would rather not waste the time.

All those characters Iisted have something "special" about them that sets them apart from everyone else.

Using this argument is flawed.

[Vit246]

That really irked me.  Declaring independence and then willingly become indentured to Tevintia is just contradictory on so many levels.  Why not just stay in the Circles then?

 

Because in Tevinter they would not be stigmatized. They could have a chance to be respected (and/or feared) and elevate their social status to heights unheard of outside of Tevinter. Magic is considered a gift in Tevinter. Indentured service is not forever. And everybody always works for somebody higher-up.

In the Circles mages are stigmatized. They're guarded by zealots trained to fear them and treat them as sub-human. They cannot really form relationships or keep any offspring. They have very little control over how they live and die. If they're accused of a crime, it often ends up in a summary sentence with no trial or appeal. Nobody wants to go back to the Circles.

[samb]

Because in Tevinter they would not be stigmatized. They could have a chance to be respected (and/or feared) and elevate their social status to heights unheard of outside of Tevinter. Magic is considered a gift in Tevinter. Indentured service is not forever. And everybody always works for somebody higher-up.

In the Circles mages are stigmatized. They're guarded by zealots trained to fear them and treat them as sub-human. They cannot really form relationships or keep any offspring. They have very little control over how they live and die. If they're accused of a crime, it often ends up in a summary sentence with no trial or appeal. Nobody wants to go back to the Circles.

A slave is still a slave.  10 years is a long time, maybe not for an elf.  Let's not forget how they like to use blood magic on slaves and most won't last ten years.

[Dean_the_Young]

In fact, we know it happens in Tevinter, because it did happen to Fenris. And it also happened to Gatt (who, to boot, was a child at the time). 

 

Fenris was not a mage, and was an elf who doesn't care about elfyness, so he either doesn't count or probably deserved it.

 

Going by forum speak, at least.
 

[Dean_the_Young]

So a group who is distinctly non-military and is by all accounts a group of scholars more than anything, might be a bit bad at performing military actions considering their lack of training and experience?

 

You don't f**kin' say.

 

I do indeed say.

 

What's more surprising is that people try and argue that they aren't militarily inept. Instead some people do strange things like argue they aren't inept, they simply don't know what they're doing.
 

[Dean_the_Young]

So because there is a change of that happening (and it can happen anywhere in Thedas), mages should just accept their life long raping and abuse because it comes with the unfounded incarceration?

 

Life long? Man, you'd think the Templars would get tired eventually. [/deadpan]

 

More seriously, if you want to make an argument that an action is done as an alternative to rape and abuse... it would help if you not only didn't pick an even more notorious abusive location, but then argue equivalence of 'it can happen anywhere.'

 

You start to lose the distinction that would make a difference that might justify an otherwise foolish action. If you are afraid of being raped and abuse, selling yourself into slavery for even more notorious rapists and abusers is not exactly resolving the underlying problem.

[Phoe77]

I'm just popping in to say that, while I don't really agree with Fiona's action, I think that it was understandable given the circumstances.  Considering the ever-present threat of a templar attack and the lack of any other true allies, I can't fault the decision to take an ally where she could get one.  I'm sure it was mentioned that it also seems as though Alexius didn't have any intention of sticking to the terms of their agreement considering Fiona's outburst upon hearing about the mages joining the Tevinter legion.  

 

I'm personally inclined to look more harshly upon what the leaders of the templar order decided to do, and that has little to do with my pro-mage tendencies.  

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I'm just popping in to say that, while I don't really agree with Fiona's action, I think that it was understandable given the circumstances.  Considering the ever-present threat of a templar attack and the lack of any other true allies, I can't fault the decision to take an ally where she could get one. 

What do you call the king and the major lord who let Fiona crash in a castle?

[Phoe77]

I think I remember ambient dialogue suggesting that Redcliffe had already been attacked by templars and even suffered damages.  If that's the case, then I'd call them ineffectual.