1363 réponses à ce sujet

[X Equestris]

The Venatori are a bunch of tevinter pariahs who successfully spread chaos in the south, imagine if they had strong leadership to guide the entire tevinter imperium. It's not like the qunari are exactly thrilled with the south either. If kirkwall is any indication of the chantry, the vints might just provoke another qunari war or a spread corruption among the south. The south's stability is a lot more fragile than most people like to believe.

The old exalted marches nearly beat Tevinter centuries ago, and the Imperium was far stronger then. Even better, the current Magisters are bewildered by Templar powers. The Qunari would much prefer to finish off Tevinter before taking on the south. They nearly destroyed the Imperium the last time, and they were only driven back by the forces of the southern nations.

[MisterJB]

Not necessary. The inquisitor turned on the orb by accident, like a child playing with a gun who knows if whatever they did would have resulted in that massive explosion. We can only assume.

I assume there was a reason Corpyheus used Grey Warden mages rather than Venatori to perform the ritual.

Probably because he expected he would need a new meatsuit after the ritual was complete.

[Sports72Xtrm]

The old exalted marches nearly beat Tevinter centuries ago, and the Imperium was far stronger then. Even better, the current Magisters are bewildered by Templar powers. The Qunari would much prefer to finish off Tevinter before taking on the south. They nearly destroyed the Imperium the last time, and they were only driven back by the forces of the southern nations.

And yet the tevinter imperium still stands despite it all and despite being relentlessly assaulted, they still strike fear in the south. Mages who can infiltrate minds, control dragons, summon spirits, and if wynne really did send the formula to reverse tranquility to every circle, will have the formula to reverse every mage ever subjected to tranquility.

[X Equestris]

And yet the tevinter imperium still stands despite it all and despite being relentlessly assaulted, they still strike fear in the south. Mages who can infiltrate minds, control dragons, summon spirits, and if wynne really did send the formula to reverse tranquility to every circle, will have the formula to reverse every mage ever subjected to tranquility.

You think the Tevinter will be happy to have the cure for tranquility? They love using it on the weak and on their political opponents. If anything they'll suppress the knowledge. Tevinter is a dying relic, and they can't even see it. Dorian tells you that. Fenris did, too.

[MisterJB]

The original deal was not as cruel as you make it seemed. Sure some of them required military service, maybe they would be expendable, but those that weren't military would be safe. And I assume the legion would try not to die for atleast the practical reason of not wasting resources.

And as I said before:

Also, there was the whole "deliver bits of Ferelden territory to an hostile foreign force" but who cares about that?

It's only betrayal.

[Sports72Xtrm]

You think the Tevinter will be happy to have the cure for tranquility? They love using it on the weak and on their political opponents. If anything they'll suppress the knowledge. Tevinter is a dying relic, and they can't even see it. Dorian tells you that. Fenris did, too.

I doubt the magisters would be able to censor all of the imperium. Wynne ensured that the knowledge would be improssible to suppress, they'd be able to gain it somehow. Now all those political opponents that were tranquil now become allies. boom- tables turned.

[MisterJB]

I doubt the magisters would be able to censor all of the imperium. Wynne ensured that the knowledge would be improssible to suppress, they'd be able to gain it somehow. Now all those political opponents that were tranquil now become allies. boom- tables turned.

Which would lead to further internal strife in the Imperium.

Either I'm not following your plan or you aren't.

[X Equestris]

I doubt the magisters would be able to censor all of the imperium. Wynne ensured that the knowledge would be improssible to suppress, they'd be able to gain it somehow. Now all those political opponents that were tranquil now become allies. boom- tables turned.

No, it doesn't. The reformers are a minority who tread lightly and are discreet if they know what's good for them. For example, an Archon ended slavery in the Imperium. He was assassinated, and his reforms immediately undone. If anything, it would be easier for the Tevinter to suppress knowledge of the cure, as they have blood magic at their beck and call.

[Sports72Xtrm]

No, it doesn't. The reformers are a minority who tread lightly and are discreet if they know what's good for them. For example, an Archon ended slavery in the Imperium. He was assassinated, and his reforms immediately undone. If anything, it would be easier for the Tevinter to suppress knowledge of the cure, as they have blood magic at their beck and call.

True vints have no reserve, in love or in war. And despite what people believe not everyone in tevinter resorts to blood magic or need it to intimidate their enemies.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Which would lead to further internal strife in the Imperium.

Either I'm not following your plan or you aren't.

As Dorian says, true magisters just have to prove they can annhilate their enemies, they don't actually have to do it.

[X Equestris]

True vints have no reserve, in love or in war. And despite what people believe not everyone in tevinter resorts to blood magic or need it to intimidate their enemies.

The ruling Magisters, however, do use blood magic quite extensively. They are the ones who would be interested in suppressing the cure, and with blood magic it would be relatively easy to do so.

[Sports72Xtrm]

The ruling Magisters, however, do use blood magic quite extensively. They are the ones who would be interested in suppressing the cure, and with blood magic it would be relatively easy to do so.

Power exchanges hands in tevinter frequently. Now maybe magisters do use blood magic, that doesn't mean it always results in victory. What happens when someon like dorian summon something like cole to assassinate an evil magister, what happens when the assassin with no blood kills the magister who uses blood magic? Blood magic is not superior in all things despite what they'd have you believe. And what if they try to suppress the cure? Uh... I think the answer is obvious. We kill them of course.

[X Equestris]

Power exchanges hands in tevinter frequently. Now maybe magisters do use blood magic, that doesn't mean it always results in victory. What happens when someon like dorian summon something like cole to assassinate an evil magister, what happens when the assassin with no blood kills the magister who uses blood magic? Blood magic is not superior in all things despite what they'd have you believe. And what if they try to suppress the cure? Uh... I think the answer is obvious. We kill them of course.

Sparking a civil war and weakening the already declining Imperium.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Sparking a civil war and weakening the already declining Imperium.

It's been that way for the imperium for ages and they are still standing. The vints respect were power resides, not petty grudges. They owe no loyalty to any magister or archon, just the strong. That's why they "duel" and not let it get in the way of their common goal of restoring the glory of their country.

[X Equestris]

It's been that way for the imperium for ages and they are still standing. The vints respect were power resides, not petty grudges. They owe no loyalty to any magister or archon, just the strong. That's why they "duel" and not let it get in the way of their common goal of restoring the glory of their country.

The Imperium is only still standing because the Qunari don't want to conquer them at the moment. Attacking the south would be the absolute worst possible move the Imperium could make at this moment in its history.

[Phaze50]

Perhaps - but only for people who share her opinion, and here again the opinion is more important than the people.  Everybody else is just collateral damage. 

 

Thats how leading works. Obviously she protects the people that have the same interests she does.

Since when does the Chantry protect everyone, no matter who they are? It protects the people that support it, while ostracising and abjecting anyone thats born a mage, any elf (though Cityelves are at least seen as some kind of "weird pet") and pretty much everyone else that has a different nature or opinion.

The Qunari prefer to fight and kill whoever doesn't follow the Qun but treat people differently after forcing the Qun upon them.

Every Arl or King and to be honest, any kind of real life political leader that ever fought a war did so by protecting his own peoples interests and considering everyone not belonging to that group potential collateral damage.

 

Fiona made the choice to lead the mages that wanted to be free of the Chantry theocracy. Some of those didn't like the idea of allying with the Vints (or becoming their slaves for that matter) while others were ready to do anything in order to keep the Templars away. The one thing that both parties could agree on was that they didn't want to be imprisoned in the Circles again, so Fiona was holding up her peoples interests. It would have been a different story if Fiona had sold them out, but she was ready and willing to become a slave herself.

 

Many people seem to forget that Fionas natural cause of action was to seek an alliance with the Inquisition (eventhough the faces of said religion were a Seeker, a former Templar, a born-again-Andrastian madwoman (though I doubt she knew the spymasters identity) and a stranger the Andrastians considered a saint/herald - every single person was somehow connected to the chantry) in a time when no one else trusted their intentions. She was deperate enought to try and ally with people that could have turned out to be the Chantry 2.0. The Vints retconned themselves into this when they noticed how desperate the Mages were for any alliance at all and while that version has ultimately become the truth it's not like Fionas very first idea was "Hey...we should become slaves rather than prisoners for life.".

 

Fiona can surely be hated on for allying with the Vints (eventhough pretty much every single group in DA:I makes the most ridiculous choices to get the point across that the Inquisition is needed because the Mages, Templars/Seekers, Chantry, Wardens and Nobles are all just a bunch of morons) and I personally dislike that she was turned into kind of a special snowflake in terms of the blight, but you can't really fault the leader of a rebellion for actually leading.

How much of an uproar would there be if Fiona didn't just support the mages that share her opinion but the loyalists too? If she instead went "Okay, now that we broke free from the Chantry and killed lots of people, how about we work with Viv and the loyalists that are expecting us to go back to jail where we'll likely be made tranquil for our rebellion?"

[Don Lionheart]

Most characters? Really...what about Morrigan, Alistair, Hawk, Hero of Ferelden, Varric, Anders, Cole, Dorian, Merril, Iron bull, Sera, Fenris, Solas, and pretty much anyone who isn't "typical" of their race, creed or society? I can go into specifics if you'd like, but I would rather not waste the time.

All those characters Iisted have something "special" about them that sets them apart from everyone else.

Using this argument is flawed.

 

Personally, the way I see it, the whole reason they become party member or main characters at all is because they're special?  What are the odds of ever having a party member who is or was a regular old soldier in the King's army?  Slim to none, because the reason they don't have the required skills or abilities to be a part of a PC's party.  Blackwall is probably the closest that it'll ever come, and he was only recruited because we thought he was a Warden.  The fact he happened to be a master in combat is really the only reason he was able to pull his own weight among a group of special people.  It's almost like Black Widow and Hawkeye in The Avengers.

 

He still actively helped Corypheus though. You find a document that says Lucius (the real Lucius) sold out the Seekers to Corypheus, but he ended up not having use for them since they were resistant to the red lyrium.

 

Was Lucius even the Templar leader? His rank was Lord-Seeker, not Knight-Commander.

 

This is a tricky question to answer.  Technically, the Knight-Commander rules over the Templars, this is true.  However, the Lord Seeker has the ability to take over the Templars, which has happened previously (See, Dawn of the Seeker).  So, while he's not the official leader of the Templars, he does have the authority to take over.  This is why Cassandra and other Seekers have so many of the same abilities of Templars, they go through similar initial training.  The Seekers were designed to oversee the Templar Order when the Templars were put in charge of the Circles.

 

Just like to drop this in here; I never disliked Fiona. In The Calling, I found her romance with Maric weird for some reason (then again, I just feel eternally bad for poor Rowan). I understand her position in DA:I fairly well.

 

I played the Templar arc for my second playthrough, and not only do I think it's dramaturgically way better executed (including the introduction of Cole), I felt incredibly sad when I had to kill her during the Venatori attack on Haven.

 

I appreciated the romance with Fiona in The Calling because I felt bad for Maric, who was still mourning over Rowan.  You read the book, there was a few paragraphs in there that really made me feel for Maric when it was expressing how he felt watching her wither away. 

 

Depends on the master really. Dorian would say you think that way because you are applying the sort of villanous cliches everyone expects out of tevinter. Sure it wouldn't be pleasant, it would be work ranging from cooking to cleaning or even helping alexius research. But the rebel mages are apostates that are wanted dead or tranquil so the alternative is unsavory. But if Alexius wasn't part of the venatori and wasn't cruel out of desperation, Dorian describes him a decent man. Tevinter prohibits sacrifices technically and Alexius might be a magister of honor if you can believe it.

 

Thank you!  Finally someone else who's using the facts about Tevinter that I mentioned a few posts ago.  I'm glad to have someone on my side that Tevinter is not entirely evil.

 

The inquisitor has enough sense to know it was a magical object that he has no expierence or knowledge of. If we can hold the magisters accountable for creating the blight by entering the fade and dismiss ignorance as a defense, then why should the inquisitor be exempt?

 

There is so much bad in these two sentences...sheesh.  In the situation the Inquisitor was in, I believe his primary mindset would have been, "HOLY BLEEP!  The Divine! *Divine smacks the orb out of Cpry's hand* Wha...I better get this away from that guy!"  In other words, he was probably just doing his best to help the Divine, and didn't have a chance to give any thought to what the orb actually was, magic or otherwise.  On the other hand, the Magisters are held accountable because they intended to enter the city, they were doing bad things and were bad people, and their bad actions resulted in the ultimate bad befalling Thedas.

[In Exile]

Thats how leading works. Obviously she protects the people that have the same interests she does.
Since when does the Chantry protect everyone, no matter who they are? It protects the people that support it, while ostracising and abjecting anyone thats born a mage, any elf (though Cityelves are at least seen as some kind of "weird pet") and pretty much everyone else that has a different nature or opinion.
The Qunari prefer to fight and kill whoever doesn't follow the Qun but treat people differently after forcing the Qun upon them.
Every Arl or King and to be honest, any kind of real life political leader that ever fought a war did so by protecting his own peoples interests and considering everyone not belonging to that group potential collateral damage.

Fiona made the choice to lead the mages that wanted to be free of the Chantry theocracy. Some of those didn't like the idea of allying with the Vints (or becoming their slaves for that matter) while others were ready to do anything in order to keep the Templars away. The one thing that both parties could agree on was that they didn't want to be imprisoned in the Circles again, so Fiona was holding up her peoples interests. It would have been a different story if Fiona had sold them out, but she was ready and willing to become a slave herself.

Many people seem to forget that Fionas natural cause of action was to seek an alliance with the Inquisition (eventhough the faces of said religion were a Seeker, a former Templar, a born-again-Andrastian madwoman (though I doubt she knew the spymasters identity) and a stranger the Andrastians considered a saint/herald - every single person was somehow connected to the chantry) in a time when no one else trusted their intentions. She was deperate enought to try and ally with people that could have turned out to be the Chantry 2.0. The Vints retconned themselves into this when they noticed how desperate the Mages were for any alliance at all and while that version has ultimately become the truth it's not like Fionas very first idea was "Hey...we should become slaves rather than prisoners for life.".

Fiona can surely be hated on for allying with the Vints (eventhough pretty much every single group in DA:I makes the most ridiculous choices to get the point across that the Inquisition is needed because the Mages, Templars/Seekers, Chantry, Wardens and Nobles are all just a bunch of morons) and I personally dislike that she was turned into kind of a special snowflake in terms of the blight, but you can't really fault the leader of a rebellion for actually leading.
How much of an uproar would there be if Fiona didn't just support the mages that share her opinion but the loyalists too? If she instead went "Okay, now that we broke free from the Chantry and killed lots of people, how about we work with Viv and the loyalists that are expecting us to go back to jail where we'll likely be made tranquil for our rebellion?"

Again, we can absolutely fault her for seeking out terms that were identical if not worse than what she rebelled against, and at least in principle involved abandoning any pretense over freedom.

The mage rebellion was pragmatic. It was all about "give me freedom or death!" so the argument that (potentially temporary) slavery is preferable to death is beside the point (at least if you ask me).

[Cainhurst Crow]

You know, for someone as "strong" as fiona was, as "wise", and who "overcame" obstacles and challenges that would probably have broken most, she certainly seems to be more of a craven capitulator than anything else.

 

Let's just focus on what we would know, had we not explored redcliffe. We know that she sat back and did nothing while Alexius came into redcliffe and essentially took over, did nothing when he kicked the arl, who at that point had been their staunch ally, out of his castle and lands. She did nothing as the normal villagers, who had taken the mages in, were driven out, possibly killed along the way, by tevinter forces. She did nothing as their forces essentially took command of the entire rebellion, didn't even fight for her position of leadership. Than, when she finds out Alexius plans to put the mages into slavery, all of them including the elderly and children, and turn them into soliders, she does nothing but complain once, than whimper like a schoolgirl getting lectured by a stern professor. She just heard that he plans on making child soliders out of the mages, and she acts like she's spent her whole life as a whipping girl slave to him.

 

I'm sorry, is this the same fiona who fought off darkspawn as a grey warden and rose the ranks fighting back templars? Or was vivienne more spot on with her quip about her dementia showing.

 

There's no fight in her, she puts up no resistence, not even passively, against Alexius. Hell, his crippled and sickly son, someone who was attacked by darkspawn and didn't have the luxury of coming out unscathed as Fiona had, did more to resist Alexius than Fiona ever does in the game.

 

And that's not taking into account that she sat back as the venatori rounded up the tranquil and harvested their skulls to make magic binoculars. Assuming they ever beheaded the corpses before they began the procedure and didn't just start skinning them down while they were still alive and attached to get that extra life force in there, she still should have noticed a lot of tranquil disappearing, and a sudden surge in the distribution of magic enhanced skulls coming out of redcliffe. And if she didn't know, how the hell didn't she? She's a grand enchanter, she's the defacto leader of the mages, and she couldn't keep track of 50 people? And yeah, count the skulls in the room and throughout the game, there's at least 50 there. She let 50 people die right under her nose, or she did know, and was too much of a cowardly doormat to do anything about it.

 

At least Lucius had the explination of proactively trying to ruin the templar order to explain his actions as a terrible leader. At least samson is shown to not give a **** to explain his utter apathy to his subordinates plights.

 

Fiona just sits and whines when bad things happens, and doesn't raise a finger to help. She doesn't even try to raise a resistance to the magisters taking over, or try to help save people when they go out and literally butcher them. She knows what's happening is wrong, and she doesn't even try. I hate to use this phrase, I ****** hate it and it burns a hole in my soul typing it because of the moral panic it represents currently, but in this case it 100% applies.

 

Fiona is nothing but a Damsel in Distress and a Burden in a Dress, a helpless female character who the protagonist must save. Thank god there are much better characters like Vivienne, Cassandra, Sera, Leiliana, Josephine, Celene, Briala, and Calpernia in this game to wash the taste of Fiona out of the players mouth.

[MisterJB]

Did Fiona ever havê a plan? Alliances, spies, means of getting resources? Anything but announcing their freedom and then hope for the best? Even if they had defeated the Templars, what would they do? Everyone would hate them more that ever. Per her own admission, no city was allowing them entry by DAI.

[X Equestris]

Did Fiona ever havê a plan? Alliances, spies, means of getting resources? Anything but announcing their freedom and then hope for the best? Even if they had defeated the Templars, what would they do? Everyone would hate them more that ever. Per her own admission, no city was allowing them entry by DAI.

I think she was hoping that the Chantry would fold when she declared independence and just give the mages what they wanted.

[Cainhurst Crow]

I think she was hoping that the Chantry would fold when she declared independence and just give the mages what they wanted.

 

Throwing a tantrum and hoping by the end she just got her way because she wanted it?

 

Sounds about right for Derpona.

[MisterJB]

Oh here is something often overlooked. Fiona is a Grey Warden.
And she fought for Corypheus. The person who started the Blights.
Ler that sink in.

[X Equestris]

I feel like she was more focused on winning the political battle within the College of Enchanters than actually preparing for an armed rebellion.