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[Cainhurst Crow]

Oh here is something often overlooked. Fiona is a Grey Warden.
And she fought for Corypheus. The person who started the Blights.
Ler that sink in.

 

Blackwall was best Grey Warden in the game, and the bastards wasn't even a Grey Warden.
 

[TK514]

I don't hate her. I think she's a terrible character, poorly written, previously an author's pet and now just an embarrassment.

The best ending she could hope for is the obscurity of "Wait, Fiona was a miniboss at Haven?"

[Don Lionheart]

Many people seem to forget that Fionas natural cause of action was to seek an alliance with the Inquisition (eventhough the faces of said religion were a Seeker, a former Templar, a born-again-Andrastian madwoman (though I doubt she knew the spymasters identity) and a stranger the Andrastians considered a saint/herald - every single person was somehow connected to the chantry) in a time when no one else trusted their intentions. She was deperate enought to try and ally with people that could have turned out to be the Chantry 2.0. The Vints retconned themselves into this when they noticed how desperate the Mages were for any alliance at all and while that version has ultimately become the truth it's not like Fionas very first idea was "Hey...we should become slaves rather than prisoners for life.".

 

 

I actually liked almost everything that you posted in this post, so I deleted all the stuff I liked to save space.  However, because I love Lel so much (second to Morrigan in Dragon Age), I take offense to calling her a "born-again-Andrastina madwoman" haha.  Lel's faith in the Maker is absolute, I don't think that that can be questioned, and I don't think calling her born-again is proper either, because born-again has the connotation of someone who forces their religion down the throat of the rest of the world.  I feel like she, while a staunch believer, does not force others to believe and is even understanding of those who are not Andrastian.  She's never stuck up to Dwarves and The Stone, and does not shun Qunari and the Qun.  And as far as madwoman, she's got a right to act the way she does after someone who was arguably her best friend and most trusted person in the world was murdered at the behest of a crazy, evil magister.  I believe that if you soften her during her quest, she has calmed down significantly.  I have not hardened her yet, so I can't say what happens there.

[OdanUrr]

I don't?

[NessCraig]

I wish that she has a DLC if you sided with the Mages that reunites her with Alistair. I think it is really heartbreaking as a player that avenue isn't explored.

Not everything is tied up with a cute little bow but... seriously... mom meet son

 

(Maybe we need a mommy day care DLC where all the children meet their parents...))

 

[Addai]

Again, we can absolutely fault her for seeking out terms that were identical if not worse than what she rebelled against, and at least in principle involved abandoning any pretense over freedom.

The mage rebellion was pragmatic. It was all about "give me freedom or death!" so the argument that (potentially temporary) slavery is preferable to death is beside the point (at least if you ask me).

The mages didn't vote for "freedom or death." Fiona proposed a vote and then the templars attacked them. They were going to vote that the Circles should be led by mages, not that they'd be destroyed or disbanded. The rebels also agreed to the Conclave.
 
And would I take 10 years of slavery over what I see as certain death, not only for me but everyone with me? That's not even a question.

Another important distinction is that many well-intentioned political leaders force negatives on a small group in order to achieve a later net positive for a bigger group. Say drafting young me to fight in World War II or imposing rationing. This sucks for people in the short term, but the long term good is that everybody gets freed from a crazy dictator's expansionism. Fiona is willing to impose a negative (a big bloody war) on anybody who happens to get caught in it to secure the freedom of a relatively small group of people. By her logic, 100,000 dead people is worth the freedom of 1,000 mages. By the other logic, the death of say, 100,000 soldiers is worth the freedom of millions.

This is so... Look, no one forced the templars to fight. There were two sides to the war, and the devastation you see in the game is also due to the Orlesian civil war which is a separate conflict. All the mages were asking for was to be able to rule themselves. If the Chantry had not been feeding people with hysteria for a couple ages, there would have been another way out of the mess.

[Ashagar]

I actually liked almost everything that you posted in this post, so I deleted all the stuff I liked to save space.  However, because I love Lel so much (second to Morrigan in Dragon Age), I take offense to calling her a "born-again-Andrastina madwoman" haha.  Lel's faith in the Maker is absolute, I don't think that that can be questioned, and I don't think calling her born-again is proper either, because born-again has the connotation of someone who forces their religion down the throat of the rest of the world.  I feel like she, while a staunch believer, does not force others to believe and is even understanding of those who are not Andrastian.  She's never stuck up to Dwarves and The Stone, and does not shun Qunari and the Qun.  And as far as madwoman, she's got a right to act the way she does after someone who was arguably her best friend and most trusted person in the world was murdered at the behest of a crazy, evil magister.  I believe that if you soften her during her quest, she has calmed down significantly.  I have not hardened her yet, so I can't say what happens there.

 

She turns into princess stabby stab of the stab kingdom if hardened... very dark and disturbing with  added bonus of cole saying she has nightly nightmares or some such thing from what I have heard though I never talked to him about her after accidently hardening her.  

[Cainhurst Crow]

And would I take 10 years of slavery over what I see as certain death, not only for me but everyone with me? That's not even a question.

 

 

I'm sure tevinter would never choose death for you with their new-found ownership over you.

 

 

Don't worry, I'm sure all of them choose to have their skulls made into binoculars.

[In Exile]

The mages didn't vote for "freedom or death." Fiona proposed a vote and then the templars attacked them. They were going to vote that the Circles should be led by mages, not that they'd be destroyed or disbanded. The rebels also agreed to the Conclave.

And would I take 10 years of slavery over what I see as certain death, not only for me but everyone with me? That's not even a question.

Let's set my half-joking rhetoric aside. The mages vote was a declaration of independence from the Chantry on the basis of the intolerable treatments foisted on them by the templars, in a circumstance where the Templars and Seekers effectively conspired to murder then all. The substance of their vote is irrelevant. What matters is there choice, which was between two alternatives: staying under the power of the Chantry, tolerating their abuse, and hoping Justinia could improve their lot or starting an armed insurrection that could very well lead to all of them being killed (the Rite of Annulment was invoked over much less than their rebellion).

The mages agreed to open negotiations with the Chantry. We have no idea what their bargaining position was like. It may well be that they were willing to accept a return to the Circles, but then the framing device for their rebellion becomes a bit strange seeing as how they initially eschewed being subjected exactly to that circumstance.

The offer by Tevinter is even worse than the Chantry. Instead of functional slavery, they're choosing actual slavery. Instead of a place where sexual and physical abuse happens behind closed doors and thinly veiled justifications, we have a place where such things happen openly. And instead of trusting the Chantry that there would be improvements they are trusting the magisters.

They are in the same position as with their vote. Except that they choose do not the opposite that they chose when they rebelled, and they surrender evey right they rebelled in favour of at the time.

[Addai]

Also, my dislike of Fiona is actually because she forms a rival College of Enchanters even when the Seekers as "mage police" are redirected into protecting the innocent with Cassandra (or actually even if Cassandra disbands the Seekers).  She is so dedicated to her cause that she won't even accept substantial reform and instead insists on continuing the conflict and potentially starting a new war, this one between mages.  If that one starts it will be *entirely* on her and the templars won't have anything to do with it.

I wouldn't choose to go back under the templars' yoke, either. No bleeding way. Not even with their promises that it'll all be better this time.
 

They are in the same position as with their vote. Except that they choose do not the opposite that they chose when they rebelled, and they surrender evey right they rebelled in favour of at the time.

Except that in Tevinter, the fact that mages are people is at least recognized. Dorian's amused amazement when he realizes that the mage Inquisitor was locked up all her life like a criminal is instructive here. Temporary slavery in that environment versus certain death for the rebels and lifetime enslavement to the White Chantry doesn't sound like much of a bargain.

[Ashagar]

We have examples of mages who are slaves in Tevinter in spite of being a mage. The Venatari leader was a slave until Corypheus freed her from her master because he saw potential in her, he even laments on how modern Tevinter wasted the potential of people like her. That doesn't seem to imply that mages are guaranteed to not be slaves for life to me.

[Phoe77]

Mages in Tevinter aren't guaranteed freedom, but the possibility does exist for them there.  The same thing cannot be said if they were to have stayed under Chantry control or if they would have died in the fighting.  It's a gamble, sure, but at least the odds aren't stacked completely against them.  Maybe it's unlikely that they're climb their way out of slavery, but at least it's possible.  

 

At least, that's how I imagine that many mages would see it.  They've seen that the Chantry is content to confine and limit the freedoms of all mages

[Addai]

And many of those "good people" wouldn't care if she was locked away for the rest of her life or killed by templars, so that's where it stands.

[Don Lionheart]

Eh, I shouldn't even go down this road but technically "born-again" doesn't even mean fundamentalist (and even fundamentalist doesn't mean aggressive). It's got a specific theological meaning, but it's been taken over as a generic insult.  Sort of like the word "fascist."  It used to mean something.  Now it's more or less "thing I don't like." 

 

Oh, I'm aware it's been taken over as a generic insult, which is why I said it had a connotation, rather than its definition.

[Cainhurst Crow]

lol at tevinter giving the rebel mages any sort of equality.

 

They enslave mages just as they do normal people. You think a pack of southern trash is going to get treated equally under the xenophobic and elitist system of tevinter? You think they'll believe 10 years a slave will be enough, or will they pull an "endless possibility for renewal" card on their slave status, just because they were born geographically lower than them?

 

That is, of course, assuming that any of these people would survive to 10 years in magister care. I heard Seheron is in need of a couple hundred mage reinforcements. I'm so sure the fog warriors, tal vashoth, and qunari will go easy on the cannon fodder cause of their circumstance.

 

I'll take living under the chantry than getting my guts spilled out in some foreign land by some stranger cause I got on the wrong side of a endless war.

[In Exile]

I wouldn't choose to go back under the templars' yoke, either. No bleeding way. Not even with their promises that it'll all be better this time.

Except that in Tevinter, the fact that mages are people is at least recognized. Dorian's amused amazement when he realizes that the mage Inquisitor was locked up all her life like a criminal is instructive here. Temporary slavery in that environment versus certain death for the rebels and lifetime enslavement to the White Chantry doesn't sound like much of a bargain.

But Dorian is quite adamant that NOT all mages rule or are equal in Tevinter. This is the running theme throughout his narrating of the empire. Mages may well be better off that non-mages but that does not mean mages are well off. And Circle mages in particular are in a weird place.

There's no indication they won't be subject to eternal enslavement in Tevinter. What they have is a promise from Alexius. That's no better than a promise from Justinia or from the Chantry other than a belief that the Chantry won't change or honour their promise but that Tevinter will honour it.

Yet as we see that's not true. The choice isn't absolute. The risk that Tevinter will never release them from bondage is very real - assuming they'd even survive that long.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Tevinter has quite a simple approach to magic.

 

Unless you were either born with some extraordinary and rare magical gift such as being a dreamer, or were born within tevinter, you don't matter at all. And within that category, unless your extraordinarily rare gift can be harnessed or you were born into the right family of mages, you simply don't matter.

 

There's mattering, there's not mattering, and there's not mattering at all.

 

Nobility of Tevinter > Mage of Tevinter > Every Other Mage

[Uccio]

Let's set my half-joking rhetoric aside. The mages vote was a declaration of independence from the Chantry on the basis of the intolerable treatments foisted on them by the templars, in a circumstance where the Templars and Seekers effectively conspired to murder then all. The substance of their vote is irrelevant. What matters is there choice, which was between two alternatives: staying under the power of the Chantry, tolerating their abuse, and hoping Justinia could improve their lot or starting an armed insurrection that could very well lead to all of them being killed (the Rite of Annulment was invoked over much less than their rebellion).

The mages agreed to open negotiations with the Chantry. We have no idea what their bargaining position was like. It may well be that they were willing to accept a return to the Circles, but then the framing device for their rebellion becomes a bit strange seeing as how they initially eschewed being subjected exactly to that circumstance.

The offer by Tevinter is even worse than the Chantry. Instead of functional slavery, they're choosing actual slavery. Instead of a place where sexual and physical abuse happens behind closed doors and thinly veiled justifications, we have a place where such things happen openly. And instead of trusting the Chantry that there would be improvements they are trusting the magisters.

They are in the same position as with their vote. Except that they choose do not the opposite that they chose when they rebelled, and they surrender evey right they rebelled in favour of at the time.

 

You are confusing service with slavery.

[In Exile]

You are confusing service with slavery.

No. It's slavery. People are confusing the duration with the status of the person under the yoke.

[Uccio]

No. Indenture service was the word you were looking for. You can even check it from the game. A signed contract with specified terms, extended over a specific time.