1363 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

No. Indenture service was the word you were looking for. You can even check it from the game. A signed contract with specified terms, extended over a specific time.

No. It's slavery. The terms are what make it slavery.

[Uccio]

No. It's slavery. The terms are what make it slavery.

 

Thats the problem. We do not know the actual terms, therefore we can only go by the definition given in the game. Which was indenture service. Given the situation Fiona still had a strong negotiation position. There was no obligation of her to sign a agreement which would result in slavery by name or terms. Remember that it was Tevinter whom showed up to give the offer. Also none of the mages present were not under any obligation to abide into anything resembling slavery. Fiona had only nominal negotiation rights. It is all about the negotiations.

[Addai]

But Dorian is quite adamant that NOT all mages rule or are equal in Tevinter.

Who said anything about rule? Being alive and eventually having a chance at making a life for yourself is better than what they were facing if the templars won the war.

There's no indication they won't be subject to eternal enslavement in Tevinter. What they have is a promise from Alexius. That's no better than a promise from Justinia or from the Chantry other than a belief that the Chantry won't change or honour their promise but that Tevinter will honour it.

Except that one of these groups actually believes mages are people.

[Phaze50]

 

Another important distinction is that many well-intentioned political leaders force negatives on a small group in order to achieve a later net positive for a bigger group.  Say drafting young me to fight in World War II or imposing rationing.  This sucks for people in the short term, but the long term good is that everybody gets freed from a crazy dictator's expansionism. Fiona is willing to impose a negative (a big bloody war) on anybody who happens to get caught in it to secure the freedom of a relatively small group of people.  By her logic, 100,000 dead people is worth the freedom of 1,000 mages.  By the other logic, the death of say, 100,000 soldiers is worth the freedom of millions.  

 

That is perfectly sound utalitarian reasoning as long as you focus on nothing but the present generation. If you limit the losses to only the duration of the game you get 1000 free mages for 100.000 people that die during the mage rebellion. Thats a pretty bad result, I agree.

However since any kind of diplomatic way to reach freedom was basically impossible (there was a tiny shred of hope for the first time ever but that was not only destroyed with Justinias death but people were actually blaming the mages for her death) the only non-violent solution would have been to keep accepting imprisonment. That in turn means you trade maybe a few hundred or maybe 1000 people that would have died by the hands of criminal mages for 10.000 or more mages that serve a guildless life-sentence from childhood (which is hardly better than death, as we use it as the worst possible punishment in our prison-system). 

And thats per generation. After all new mages would be born and others would be imprisoned every year.

 

What I'm trying to get at is that killing many for the sake of few can, over the course of generations, save more lifes than were lost if the system had never changed. I'm not agreeing with her methods as way too many innocents were involved in the battles (for which both mages and templars are to blame) but it's not a simple matter of "We can fight for our freedom until we kill 1000 people. As soon as the 1001st person dies our political agenda turns wrong.".

 

I actually liked almost everything that you posted in this post, so I deleted all the stuff I liked to save space.  However, because I love Lel so much (second to Morrigan in Dragon Age), I take offense to calling her a "born-again-Andrastina madwoman" haha.  Lel's faith in the Maker is absolute, I don't think that that can be questioned, and I don't think calling her born-again is proper either, because born-again has the connotation of someone who forces their religion down the throat of the rest of the world.  I feel like she, while a staunch believer, does not force others to believe and is even understanding of those who are not Andrastian.  She's never stuck up to Dwarves and The Stone, and does not shun Qunari and the Qun.  And as far as madwoman, she's got a right to act the way she does after someone who was arguably her best friend and most trusted person in the world was murdered at the behest of a crazy, evil magister.  I believe that if you soften her during her quest, she has calmed down significantly.  I have not hardened her yet, so I can't say what happens there.

 

This was actually more of a joke. To be honest I like Lelianna as well. While I had to kill her when my HoF destroyed the urn of sacred ashes I did sympathize with her before I did it and felt bad for killing her, eventhough she never gave me a choice.

However the fact that Lelianna simply ignores the fact I killed her and shows up again was always a little irritating. Especially with her extreme change of heart. 

DA:O = "I'll kill people for the love of the Maker."

DA:I = "I'll kill people because I detest the Maker and I have to mete out punishment if there is no divine punishment."

She's certainly not dumb and I actually consider softened Lelianna to be the best Divine-choice but the woman is still of uhm....questionable mental stability xD

 

Oh here is something often overlooked. Fiona is a Grey Warden.
And she fought for Corypheus. The person who started the Blights.
Ler that sink in.

 

Every Grey Warden in Orlais (except for Alistair/Loghain/Stroud) fought for Corypheus.

They were corruped by Cory without ever knowing they're on his side.

The mages/templars (including Fiona if you go the templar route) were corrupted by Cory without ever knowing they were on his side as well.

Let that sink in.

[MisterJB]

Every Grey Warden in Orlais (except for Alistair/Loghain/Stroud) fought for Corypheus.

They were corruped by Cory without ever knowing they're on his side.

The mages/templars (including Fiona if you go the templar route) were corrupted by Cory without ever knowing they were on his side as well.

Let that sink in.

Precisely. They did not know.

Fiona knew. Afterall, he is visibly standing on a cliff in the battle Fiona participated in.

[vetlet]

Precisely. They did not know.

Fiona knew. Afterall, he is visibly standing on a cliff in the battle Fiona participated in.

 

 If this is the battle at Haven, isn't this post mass brainwashing, when all the mages in redcliffe have effectively been converted to Venatori wannabes?

[MisterJB]

 If this is the battle at Haven, isn't this post mass brainwashing, when all the mages in redcliffe have effectively been converted to Venatori wannabes?

 

Unless they are being mind controlled, which isn't indicated anywhere, brainwashing simply means they altered their affiliations and ideal which still means, Fiona and the mages fought for Corypheus willingly.
 

[vetlet]

That's what I meant: I vaguely remember if you sided with the templars, the Ventatoris' glee at having taken control of rebel mages.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Unless they are being mind controlled, which isn't indicated anywhere, brainwashing simply means they altered their affiliations and ideal which still means, Fiona and the mages fought for Corypheus willingly.
 

No they don't. First off, the guide outright says they are brainwashed. Second, Leliana's version of the Investigate Redcliffe mission shows the Venatori are performing a brainwashing ritual on the remaining rebel mages, and third the version of the letter in the Hissing Wastes if you sided with the Templars says that the Venatori are preferred since they brainwashed the mages and the Red Templars failed at Therinfal. If you refuse to believe things the game outright says, I can say that the Red Templars still have their minds and are aiding Corypheus willingly. After all, Denam is knew what he was doing and the fact that you can recruit him shows that he willingly aided Corypheus. Therefore, all Red Templars willingly help Corypheus.

[Phaze50]

Unless they are being mind controlled, which isn't indicated anywhere, brainwashing simply means they altered their affiliations and ideal which still means, Fiona and the mages fought for Corypheus willingly.
 

 

So you consider getting brainwashed a willing act? Mind control might sound more intrusive because "control" pretty much spells it out for you while "washing" sounds all nice and harmless, but brainwashing is simply the art of reaching that same result by completely reprograming a persons mind and often their personality through conditioning. It's the kind of "persuation" that most people would consider torture and not just a simple "Hey, wanna betray everyone and serve me?": Thats why you generally don't hear of people getting brainwashed while drinking a coffee at starbucks, but in prison camps where their mind can be broken and reformed.

[Scerene]

 She doesnt make much sense as a character. She has animosity toward humans who treat others as lessers and goes on about the oppression of elves, but then she remains fiercly loyal to Genevieve even though its obvious she would do anything, no matter how oppressive or brutal to get her way, and the same can be said about Duncan who was a low life at the time of the calling. The only time she questions Genevieve is at the end when she reveals her plan to go along with the architect. She goes behind the back of the mages and forces them into tevinters debt without their knowledge or consent. She doesnt keep track of the tranquil she brought with her and allows alexius to kick them around, we also find out the brutal and disgusting fate they are subjected to at the hands of him.  Most likely Fiona didnt know about this, but the fact is she unwittingly allowed it to happen. She forces the mage rebellion but lacks the leadership skills, forethought and planning to manage it properly. I have a sort of love/hate relationship with her. In some ways i find her admirable because she had a horrible life, but somehow managed to still stay on top if it all, and for all intents and purposes, despite her numerous flaws, a relatively stable and well-meaning person.

[MisterJB]

So you consider getting brainwashed a willing act? Mind control might sound more intrusive because "control" pretty much spells it out for you, but brainwashing is simply the art of reaching that same result by completely reprograming a persons mind and often their personality through conditioning. It's the kind of "persuation" that most people would consider torture and not just a simple "Hey, wanna betray everyone and serve me?": Thats why you generally don't hear of people getting brainwashed while drinking a coffee at starbucks, but in prison camps where their mind can be broken and reformed.

 

There are those who would accuse the school system of brainwashing. It is not a topic I am very knowledgeable of, and thus I will not go into length on the subject, but in a world of mystical compulsion through blood magic or red lyrium, if Fiona can simply be persuaded(which is the most widely accepted definition of brainwashing I can find) to aid Corypheus, that makes her weak.
And every action taken after her brainwashing was of her own volition.
 

[MisterJB]

If you refuse to believe things the game outright says, I can say that the Red Templars still have their minds and are aiding Corypheus willingly. After all, Denam is knew what he was doing and the fact that you can recruit him shows that he willingly aided Corypheus. Therefore, all Red Templars willingly help Corypheus.

Red Lyrium is a mystical compulsion. Anyone fooled by their superiors into taking is thereafter controlled by Corypheus.

As for Denam and Samson and Lucius, whether they were brainwashed or not is a matter of discussion. But even if they were, it doesn't excuse their actions nor should it excuse Fiona's.

 

[Phaze50]

There are those who would accuse the school system of brainwashing. It is not a topic I am very knowledgeable of, and thus I will not go into length on the subject, but in a world of mystical compulsion through blood magic or red lyrium, if Fiona can simply be persuaded(which is the most widely accepted definition of brainwashing I can find) to aid Corypheus, that makes her weak.
And every action taken after her brainwashing was of her own volition.
 

 

Uhm, the most widely accepted? Where? You know there are actual definitions of what can and can not be called brainwashing, right? Google the word brainwashing and one of the first links tries to explain the process as simple as possible ( http://science.howst...rainwashing.htm) while even easily accessible sites like wikipedia will explain multiple methods of brainwashing (in more complicated medical terms than the site I linked) and the one thing that all the methods share is that the process of brainwashing someone is never consensual and always comes in a package with either physical, mental or in most cases physical and mental abuse and torture.

 

Part of the description in the site above in case you don't want to read it all: "The agent (the brainwasher) must have complete control over the target (the brainwashee) so that sleep patterns, eating, using the bathroom and the fulfillment of other basic human needs depend on the will of the agent. In the brainwashing process, the agent systematically breaks down the target's identity to the point that it doesn't work anymore. The agent then replaces it with another set of behaviors, attitudes and beliefs that work in the target's current environment."

[thesuperdarkone2]

Uhm, the most widely accepted? Where? You know there are actual definitions of what can and can not be called brainwashing, right? Google the word brainwashing and one of the first links tries to explain the process as simple as possible ( http://science.howst...rainwashing.htm) while even easily accessible sites like wikipedia will explain multiple methods of brainwashing (in more complicated medical terms than the site I linked) and the one thing that all the methods share is that the process of brainwashing someone is never consensual and always comes in a package with either physical, mental or in most cases physical and mental abuse and torture.

This. If you can't even accept that brainwashing isn't consensual and is essentially mind control, you really are deluded. Seriously, how many people think of brainwashing as "oh, they are doing it willingly". I swear, pro-templars refusing to believe things the game outright says says a lot about them.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Red Lyrium is a mystical compulsion. Anyone fooled by their superiors into taking is thereafter controlled by Corypheus.

As for Denam and Samson and Lucius, whether they were brainwashed or not is a matter of discussion. But even if they were, it doesn't excuse their actions nor should it excuse Fiona's.

If Denam was brainwashed, why does he still say Corypheus was a god and how can we recruit a red templar if he was brainwashed? Since you say the mages willingly helped corypheus, then the red templars willingly aided corypheus in turning people into red lyrium and trying to help corypheus conquer thedas.

[MisterJB]

Uhm, the most widely accepted? Where? You know there are actual definitions of what can and can not be called brainwashing, right? Google the word brainwashing and one of the first links tries to explain the process as simple as possible ( http://science.howst...rainwashing.htm) while even easily accessible sites like wikipedia will explain multiple methods of brainwashing (in more complicated medical terms than the site I linked) and the one thing that all the methods share is that the process of brainwashing someone is never consensual and always comes in a package with either physical, mental or in most cases physical and mental abuse and torture.

 

Part of the description in the site above in case you don't want to read it all: "The agent (the brainwasher) must have complete control over the target (the brainwashee) so that sleep patterns, eating, using the bathroom and the fulfillment of other basic human needs depend on the will of the agent. In the brainwashing process, the agent systematically breaks down the target's identity to the point that it doesn't work anymore. The agent then replaces it with another set of behaviors, attitudes and beliefs that work in the target's current environment."

No one said the process is consensual but it's still "just" psychology, not mystical compulsion which can't be defied. That is persuasion, brutal one to be sure but still persuasion.

Fiona could have stopped firing spells at any moment. 

 

[MisterJB]

If Denam was brainwashed, why does he still say Corypheus was a god and how can we recruit a red templar if he was brainwashed? Since you say the mages willingly helped corypheus, then the red templars willingly aided corypheus in turning people into red lyrium and trying to help corypheus conquer thedas.

 

I believe that is the very definition of brainwashing. To change the beliefs of someone until they believe what you want them to.

And yes, the Red Templars willingly aided Corypheus. No Pro-Templar ever tried to defend them.

[TobiTobsen]

No they don't. First off, the guide outright says they are brainwashed. Second, Leliana's version of the Investigate Redcliffe mission shows the Venatori are performing a brainwashing ritual on the remaining rebel mages, and third the version of the letter in the Hissing Wastes if you sided with the Templars says that the Venatori are preferred since they brainwashed the mages and the Red Templars failed at Therinfal.

 

If it is the same brainwashing that the Grey Warden mages get, then you have to willingly participate in a blood magic ritual/sacrifice.

[Ranadiel Marius]

No they don't. First off, the guide outright says they are brainwashed. Second, Leliana's version of the Investigate Redcliffe mission shows the Venatori are performing a brainwashing ritual on the remaining rebel mages, and third the version of the letter in the Hissing Wastes if you sided with the Templars says that the Venatori are preferred since they brainwashed the mages and the Red Templars failed at Therinfal. If you refuse to believe things the game outright says, I can say that the Red Templars still have their minds and are aiding Corypheus willingly. After all, Denam is knew what he was doing and the fact that you can recruit him shows that he willingly aided Corypheus. Therefore, all Red Templars willingly help Corypheus.

Guide isn't canon. Lel's mission report says ritual with no details of what it was for so it could have been anything. As for the note, could you provide the text of it as I am unaware of anyone who has seen it other than you.

[Phaze50]

 

No one said the process is consensual but it's still "just" psychology, not mystical compulsion which can't be defied. That is persuasion, brutal one to be sure but still persuasion.

Fiona could have stopped firing spells at any moment. 

 

Yes, it is just psychology that shatters your identity, your personality and your mind. I'm pretty sure if someone broke your mind to the point where you quite literally no longer know who you are and what you believe in. Apparently some psychologists aren't even sure if brainwashing is possible because the complete domination and destruction of a mind is that hard to grasp, but some of the things accounted to brainwashing are:

- turning painfully patriotic american soldiers (we're talking vietnam era here) into communist sleepers ready to betray the country they would have gladly died for a few weeks earlier

- turning islamist terrorists that were ready to strap bombs around their waist and die into informants that can no longer relate to and instead spy on their former comrades

and the likes of that.

 

If it is the same brainwashing that the Grey Warden mages get, then you have to willingly participate in a blood magic ritual/sacrifice.

 

The Grey Wardens actually tell you that they didn't know they were being tricked by Corypheus but they werw willingly aiming to kill the Old Gods and ready to dabble in blood magic and sacrifice their brothers in arms for it. Thats why they oppose the Venatori when they head the truth. A brainwashed person would not have gone back to normal after some kind of revelation because they'd actually no longer know who they once were. There wouldn't be anything to go back to.

[TobiTobsen]

The Grey Wardens actually tell you that they didn't know they were being tricked by Corypheus but they werw willingly aiming to kill the Old Gods and ready to dabble in blood magic and sacrifice their brothers in arms for it. Thats why they oppose the Venatori when they head the truth. A brainwashed person would not have gone back to normal after some kind of revelation because they'd actually no longer know who they once were. There wouldn't be anything to go back to.

 

If I remember it correctly only the warriors and the mages who haven't participated in the rituals are opposing the Venatori and their brainwashed brothers. There is no turning back for the mages who already "turned".

[MisterJB]

Except that one of these groups actually believes mages are people.

100% serious question, under what basis does the Chantry not treat the mages as people?

Is it because they are imprisoned? But we imprison people as well. In some cases, such as during a quarantine, without them doing anything.

Is it because their children are taken from them? But we also take children from parents we deem unfit to raise them.

Is it because there can be abuses? But there can be abuses everywhere, including Tevinter.

Is it because their freedoms are restricted? But everyone's freedoms are restricted.

Is it because they can be legally killed? But many states still have the death penalty.

 

Circle Mages receive an education. Animals aren't educated, they are trained.

Circle Mages are clothed. We don't clothe animals.

Circle Mages can have their aid requested. Animals or tools don't receive requests but orders.

Circle Mages have freedoms and rights such as the freedoms of association. Animals or tools have no such rights.

 

It seems that the treatment of mages, although you might believe it to be abusive, is in complete accordance to the treatment that can be given to people in today's Western Civilization with the possible except of the Rite of Tranquility which amounts to a lobotomy.

Are you using your own ideas of what is and isn't treating someone as if they are a person?

[Addai]

Circle mages have no basic rights, not even the right to exist, if someone in the Chantry decides they're a blood mage or a danger or whatever reason someone can produce or fabricate. NPCs comment on the fact that Divine Justinia believed that mages were people... as if this is a remarkable thing. Cullen's dialogue also talks about how he didn't view mages as people.

 

But you know what, I've had enough of these discussions to know that those who believe in the benevolence of the Chantry will not accept even basic facts of the universe, and simply insist that mages had it pretty good.

 

If I were a human mage, I'd have already been packing my bags for Tevinter the minute the Circle door blew open. Elves don't have anywhere to go, of course, which is probably why Fiona accepted Ferelden's offer, and I agree that she should have worked harder to stay in Ferelden's good graces. However she apparently concluded that Ferelden wasn't willing or capable of protecting them after the Conclave was destroyed.