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Player Hatred of Fiona


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#701
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No, because you're assuming that the Circles would be at best status quo ante. That's unrealistic. All that they could realistically expect from a templar victory after the Conclave was destroyed is that the entire lot of them would be killed or made Tranquil. So yes, I'd take a shot at freedom and dignity over that.


No, I'm assuming the Circles would imprison them all, force their children into being child soldiers, be able to lawfully sexually and physically abuse them with impunity, and have free reign to kill them as they will. Or, you know, the terms of their deal with Tevinter.

The old Circle status quo is so comically superior to the Tevinter deal beyond the promise that it would be temoroary that I didn't even think the comparison was on the table.
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#702
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No, you are wrong. For example, you can sign up in the french foreign legion. Specific time during which you are obliged to do what is pointed to you. Officers can use physical violence against recruits (or could, at one time). Running away will result incarceration as you are tried as deserter (or was at some point). Doesn´t mean it is slavery though. Same with this, strict contract yes. But not slavery.
What Fiona said about not everyone being in the military is easily avoided. Make a contract clause which specifically states that those unfit for military will have something else to do. You are still assuming that free mages do not have anything to say about the contract, that is not the case. Before signing make sure nothing points to slavery. Tevinter loves bureaucracy.


No, I'm not. Now you're getting into a professional debate with me. The substance of the agreement is what matters - and indentured servitude drew distinctions that were considered relevant in law that are, today, total nonsense for the purpose of our classification scheme all of which flowed from the temporary nature of the arrangement to this notion that voluntarily entering into the agreement in your own right made it a separat kind of agreement. But today we recognise that all of these distinctions are technical and meaningless. They do not set agreements apart from one another, which is why for example an employment contract cannot be enforced by specific performance.

As to having a say in the contract, that all turns on contractual interpretation. Tevinter most likely has a doctrine of implied terms. That Fionna doesn't agree to it doesn't mean much, even assuming they could get procedural fairness in a Tevinter court and surmount the evidentiary problems theyd face.

#703
Aimi

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What Fiona said about not everyone being in the military is easily avoided. Make a contract clause which specifically states that those unfit for military will have something else to do. You are still assuming that free mages do not have anything to say about the contract, that is not the case.


But that didn't, and couldn't, happen in the game. So why is it a topic of discussion in a thread on Fiona and her decisions? Normally I love discussions about historical analogy to the game world, but this one just seems utterly pointless.

#704
thesuperdarkone2

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Meredith, the poster child for everything that people see as wrong with the Templar order and Knight Commander of one of the, if not THE, most opressiv circles in Thedas, cannot search the mage quarters simply because Orsino says so. Yet somehow this whole balancing system of Knight Commander and First Enchanter is a farce?

 

I'm sorry, but I don't see your conclusion.

And the Circles say that mages that passed their harrowing can't be made tranquil yet Meredith went ahead with it anyway. And in order to make someone tranquil, both the First Enchanter AND the Knight-Commander have to agree. I highly doubt Orsino would support making someone tranquil simply for passing a love note. So she either ignored him entirely or intimidated him into agreeing.



#705
X Equestris

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And the Circles say that mages that passed their harrowing can't be made tranquil yet Meredith went ahead with it anyway. And in order to make someone tranquil, both the First Enchanter AND the Knight-Commander have to agree. I highly doubt Orsino would support making someone tranquil simply for passing a love note. So she either ignored him entirely or intimidated him into agreeing.


It's quite possible that Alrik was behind most of those unlawful tranquilizations.

#706
Uccio

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No, I'm not. Now you're getting into a professional debate with me. The substance of the agreement is what matters - and indentured servitude drew distinctions that were considered relevant in law that are, today, total nonsense for the purpose of our classification scheme all of which flowed from the temporary nature of the arrangement to this notion that voluntarily entering into the agreement in your own right made it a separat kind of agreement. But today we recognise that all of these distinctions are technical and meaningless. They do not set agreements apart from one another, which is why for example an employment contract cannot be enforced by specific performance.

As to having a say in the contract, that all turns on contractual interpretation. Tevinter most likely has a doctrine of implied terms. That Fionna doesn't agree to it doesn't mean much, even assuming they could get procedural fairness in a Tevinter court and surmount the evidentiary problems theyd face.

 

Yes you are. You are just interpreting it to be so, based on your own knowledge/experience. Which is dependent on the principles of law you have possible studied. There is no knowledge of the legal system of Tevinter, is it interpreted or is it followed to the letter of the law. All we know that there is a mention of indenture service, that´s it. Trust me, you can´t convince me on this. But like Eirene said, this is pointless.



#707
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No. You're wrong. The contract would absolutely be enforced by specific performance. That in itself is enough to make it analogous to slavery. Beyond that we know there is no choice as to occupation (you said not all of our people would be military!). And if it is like IRL indentured servitude then using physical violence to discipline is permitted.

So we have a contract that you cannot escape from and cannot choose under, where you have surrendered sovereignty over your person.

That's slavery. Or the conditions aren't indentured servitude by definition.

So do you view modern day compulsory military service as slavery?



#708
TK514

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It's quite possible that Alrik was behind most of those unlawful tranquilizations.


Well, given the note on the Templar's corpse in the Chantry specifically says "Don't tell Meredith what we're doing", I fail to see how anyone could believe otherwise.

#709
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So do you view modern day compulsory military service as slavery?


It's important to clarify that such a thing is legal in a particular country by legislative fiat. The answer is more complicated because mandatory service is just one element of slavery. I'm too ignorant about how such a regime works to comment on it.

What I can say is that morally I view conscription to be worryingly similar to slavery but at the same time have to profess that I'm sufficiently ignorant that I can't really say with accuracy anything beyond vague generalities.

#710
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Yes you are. You are just interpreting it to be so, based on your own knowledge/experience. Which is dependent on the principles of law you have possible studied. There is no knowledge of the legal system of Tevinter, is it interpreted or is it followed to the letter of the law. All we know that there is a mention of indenture service, that´s it. Trust me, you can´t convince me on this. But like Eirene said, this is pointless.

You're the one that started speculating about contract formation and the rights that parties would have under fictional Tevinter law. I agree that it's all hypothetical.

All I'm trying to say is that there's no reason to think Tevinter has the form of legal system that would protect these rights, and when we use the term "slavery" to refer to IRL concepts we have to be clear on what those IRL concepts are that we refer.

Obviously Fionna did not agree to the Tevinter equivalent of slavery because Alexius would say so. But that doesn't mean she didn't agree to the IRL equivalent or to the equivalent (or worse) of her Chantry situation.

#711
Ryriena

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She somehow did not notice all the new tranquil's in the gallows market place. Rolls eyes
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#712
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I'm more curious where she thought all the Tranquil used to make the oculara (ocularums? oculari?) were going.  Nobody even mentions that all these Tranquil are missing.  



#713
thesuperdarkone2

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Well, given the note on the Templar's corpse in the Chantry specifically says "Don't tell Meredith what we're doing", I fail to see how anyone could believe otherwise.

Cullen outright says that Meredith ordered Maddox to be made tranquil for passing a love note. Does Orsino really sound like he'd sign on for something like that?



#714
TK514

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Cullen outright says that Meredith ordered Maddox to be made tranquil for passing a love note. Does Orsino really sound like he'd sign on for something like that?

Would the senior Enchanter who would do anything to protect his secrets, and who would murder those he swore to protect in order to try on a harvester suit sign off on making someone Tranquil...

Absolutely.

#715
Ryriena

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I'm more curious where she thought all the Tranquil used to make the oculara (ocularums? oculari?) were going. Nobody even mentions that all these Tranquil are missing.

I don't remember anyone mention the tranquil in this mission.

#716
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It's important to clarify that such a thing is legal in a particular country by legislative fiat. The answer is more complicated because mandatory service is just one element of slavery. I'm too ignorant about how such a regime works to comment on it.

What I can say is that morally I view conscription to be worryingly similar to slavery but at the same time have to profess that I'm sufficiently ignorant that I can't really say with accuracy anything beyond vague generalities.

Fair enough.  Thanks for the reply.



#717
thesuperdarkone2

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Would the senior Enchanter who would do anything to protect his secrets, and who would murder those he swore to protect in order to try on a harvester suit sign off on making someone Tranquil...

Absolutely.

Then you are deluded. The devs outright said Orsino wasn't supposed to be fought if you sided with the mages but made him go crazy anyway so that there could be another boss fight so him going crazy if you sided with the mages is admitted bad writing. Also, Orsino was reasonable until the end. Meredith either ignored him completely or intimidated him, none of which is good.



#718
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Orsino was hip deep in the crap surrounding the murder of Hawke's mom.  Let's not paint him as some "omg I am backed into a corner otherwise I would never, ever, not in a million years use blood magic" type of guy.  It clearly fascinated him.



#719
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Cullen outright says that Meredith ordered Maddox to be made tranquil for passing a love note. Does Orsino really sound like he'd sign on for something like that?


Orsino is such a spineless **** that I wouldn't be surprised. I always got the sense he was opposed to the search because of how it impacted him.

#720
Ryriena

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^ They put that in their to explain away the him knowing blood magic lol harvester, so in reality he did not know Quentin until they made him a boss fight.

#721
Teophne

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My personal problem with Fiona is that her backstory is so blatantly manufactured to create sympathy for her and to excuse her caustic behavior; Rape-As-Backstory does not a good character make. Especially since it only happened so that all of her emotional scars could be healed by Maric's Magic Penis™. Her relationship with Maric was also painfully forced; the two had no chemistry or common ground. Instead they just argued and yelled at each other. It was just poor, lazy writing all around, and I expect better from Gaider. 

 

Expect better? I wouldn't expect much. That's not saying I don't like his works, just that it could be better. He's no Salvatore though, gotta give him that, but surely no Feist either. On 1 to 10 scale I'd give him 7 if it weren't for Dragon Age games that made me interested in the backgrounds of people and stuff, with which I'd have to give him 8+ or 9-.

 

On their relationship you described it pretty accurately if you just look at the stuff that happens between them. Once immersed in the story and experiencing the story as a whole I see it a bit differently and more believable, but I'll not get into that argument with you as it's only a matter of personal opinions and there's no use trying to sway others from their personal opinion.

 

Just throwing this idea into the air, not saying this is how I experienced it:

Remember Viv and Duncan scene? It was mentioned there that mages were restricted in their sexual department on the tower and that caused some erratic behavior on that front, let's call it slight nymphomania in lack of better term for now. What if Fiona was just that with Maric? The end where they meet kind of hints at the same direction as Fiona *could* have arranged things some other way yet she chose to do it like she did as if she didn't care about Maric.  

What if it all was just an act on her part to get into Maric's pants? Women and mages, not to mention female mages, are fickle and cunning so I wouldn't be surprised if it were so.



#722
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You might want to rethink or reword that last sentence.  I predict somebody will jump on it otherwise.



#723
Phaze50

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100% serious question, under what basis does the Chantry not treat the mages as people?

Is it because they are imprisoned? But we imprison people as well. In some cases, such as during a quarantine, without them doing anything.

Is it because their children are taken from them? But we also take children from parents we deem unfit to raise them.

Is it because there can be abuses? But there can be abuses everywhere, including Tevinter.

Is it because their freedoms are restricted? But everyone's freedoms are restricted.

Is it because they can be legally killed? But many states still have the death penalty.

 

Circle Mages receive an education. Animals aren't educated, they are trained.

Circle Mages are clothed. We don't clothe animals.

Circle Mages can have their aid requested. Animals or tools don't receive requests but orders.

Circle Mages have freedoms and rights such as the freedoms of association. Animals or tools have no such rights.

 

 1. A quarantine is not imprisonment. It is a temporary solution. In the case of sick people who are dying of their sickness it's meant to not spread the sickness. If the sickness is either treatable or deemed not contagious they go free after treatment. Magic is not contagious and the likes of Vivianne, Wynne, Morrigan and every single mage protagonist every played proves that Magic is not dangerous if you know how to wield it. You still have to choose to use it violently in order for it to become dangerous, just like you have to chose to use every knife violently in order for you to become a danger.

 

2. We take children from parents unfit to raise them to protect the children. We don't take them from their parents to send them into an orphanage until they're 18 to then send them into prison for the rest of their lives.

 

3. There can be abuses anywhere, true. Yet the state usually treats abuse as a crime (the parents unfit to protect their children, which you used in the previous example, are often deemed so because they abuse them after all) instead of legalizing it and actively using it on every person that has, lets say, green eyes. If other people abuse you, the law is on your side. If the law sets up the rule that you should be abused no one is on your side.

As for Tervinter. Their slavery system is pretty bad too but it's still better than the Circle-system because of one simple thing: choice. You choose to sell yourself into slavery in order to solve a problem. You could make the choice to become a homeless person insead. You could potentially ask a family member to solve your debt-problems, ending the need for slavery. Hell you could even leave the empire if you thought thats a smarter move. A mage has only 2 options: Either be imprisoned for the rest of your life or get hunted down and killed for the crime of not letting yourself be imprisoned.

 

4. You could argue that even saying "don't kill people" restricts people, so yes, to a reasonable extent every single person is restricted in their freedom. There is however a difference between that and not even having the freedom to walk across the street and sit on a bench. Thats not the normal level of restriction, but a level we use for prisoners that have already proven to cause severe harm to others. We don't use it on people with the logic that there once was a bald murderer, so every bald person has to be a murderer and thus imprisoned. We wait until they give us a reason.

 

5. Same thing. Death penalty is used instead of a life sentence for people that were exceptionally brutal and sadistic in their murders, showed no remorse at all or simply killed dozens of people. It is earned and even then, most states with a higher amount of intelligent people than Texas have already outlawed it. Every european country has outlawed it. There's not even a death penalty in russia. Those are all different cultures choosing to not even treat criminals the way you say everyone born a mage should be treated. The exception are some dictatorial regimes and countries like Saudi Arabia, who we often deem dangerous (often, as in during every single religious discussion) because of their willigness to legalize murder.

 

 

The one thing that irritates me whenever I come across those "Magic is a sickness and should be treated like one" or "every Mage is a Blood Mage" posts is the question, if the people using that argument never actually played Dragon Age o.O

BioWare already proved you false in the most definite way possible. They let you play a mage and see the world from a mages perspective, and guess what? It's no different from a rogues or warriors perspective. There is no sudden urge to murder people and commit blood magic. Demons don't flock around you trying to possess you. The demons you do meet try to corrupt you no matter if you are a mundane or a mage. The playthrough is overall identical no matter if you are or are not a mage. Wouldn't you think there'd be some kind of difference if magic was something that severly changes your way of thinking and turns you into a psychopath?



#724
Don Lionheart

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My personal problem with Fiona is that her backstory is so blatantly manufactured to create sympathy for her and to excuse her caustic behavior; Rape-As-Backstory does not a good character make. Especially since it only happened so that all of her emotional scars could be healed by Maric's Magic Penis™. Her relationship with Maric was also painfully forced; the two had no chemistry or common ground. Instead they just argued and yelled at each other. It was just poor, lazy writing all around, and I expect better from Gaider. 

 

I disagree, I find that it is similar to what the rivalry romances were supposed to be in DA2.  Granted, I never saw what one of those looked like, since I played the game twice and friendship-romanced Isabella both times, but that's the idea (as a quick aside, I really liked the concept of the rivalry romance, but I just couldn't play the game a third time to test it out, no matter how many times I could watch the Hawke/Arishok conversations).  But the whole point of the development of the Fiona/Maric relationship was her generalized thought about how all nobility are, for the sake of keeping the forums clean, mean and bad people, and Maric defied every expectation/experience she had ever had of/with a King/royalty.  That's why I don't think it was forced.  It may have been done to retcon or easily explain Alistair's parentage, but I still didn't get the feeling it was forced.  That said, it was SO predictable, haha, but they did get me with the Alistair thing, because I was not aware of the elf/human mixture resulting in human appearance until it was explained in The Masked Empire.

 

Well, given the note on the Templar's corpse in the Chantry specifically says "Don't tell Meredith what we're doing", I fail to see how anyone could believe otherwise.

 

I feel it's important to not that Meredith was not out of her mind for the entire game.  She certainly was strict, mean, untrustworthy, and borderline evil, but she did not lose her mind until the Red Lyrium got to her.  It's because of that I have a hard time deciding whether or not Meredith would have been participatory in unlawful tranquilizations or not.  I could see an argument saying she was, but there's evidence to the contrary, so I'm torn.  Not that it matters anyway, that cray lady a statue!  Lol.

 

You might want to rethink or reword that last sentence.  I predict somebody will jump on it otherwise.

 

Haha!



#725
Ryriena

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Expect better? I wouldn't expect much. That's not saying I don't like his works, just that it could be better. He's no Salvatore though, gotta give him that, but surely no Feist either. On 1 to 10 scale I'd give him 7 if it weren't for Dragon Age games that made me interested in the backgrounds of people and stuff, with which I'd have to give him 8+ or 9-.
 
On their relationship you described it pretty accurately if you just look at the stuff that happens between them. Once immersed in the story and experiencing the story as a whole I see it a bit differently and more believable, but I'll not get into that argument with you as it's only a matter of personal opinions and there's no use trying to sway others from their personal opinion.
 
Just throwing this idea into the air, not saying this is how I experienced it:
Remember Viv and Duncan scene? It was mentioned there that mages were restricted in their sexual department on the tower and that caused some erratic behavior on that front, let's call it slight nymphomania in lack of better term for now. What if Fiona was just that with Maric? The end where they meet kind of hints at the same direction as Fiona *could* have arranged things some other way yet she chose to do it like she did as if she didn't care about Maric.  
What if it all was just an act on her part to get into Maric's pants? Women and mages, not to mention female mages, are fickle and cunning so I wouldn't be surprised if it were so.

I have come too make Raga prediction come true, what the **** woman are the only one to think that way? It's not like men couldn't possbily be as fickle as us lonely females roles eyes.
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