1363 réponses à ce sujet

[Owlfruit Potion]

For me it was partially the disappointment of this character that had been so built up in the ancillary material--from the books, I expected her to be a charismatic badass who would fight for the rebel mages with everything in her soul, and from HoDA if nothing else I expected this Orlesian Grand Enchanter to at least look awesome. And instead we got a lady in the same dumpy prison robes as all the other mages, who seemed not to care much about anything and who seemed to have given up on her cause (as someone mentioned above, she still seems indifferent about everything even after you make up for their mistake with the Venatori and give them a second chance).

 

Someone told me she said something about feeling weird and her memories being fuzzy that could be interpreted as the Venatori enthralling her with blood magic, which would make her awful decisions more forgivable, but I missed that dialogue if it exists. It was annoying that the champion of the mage freedom cause was such a wet blanket and made such counterproductive decisions, especially if no mind control was involved. I don't hate her, and I wouldn't have wanted to "murderknife" her or whatever (though my Inquisitor would have liked to put her on trial if she actually did have full possession of her mental faculties when allying with the Venatori), but as a player I was disappointed.

 

(EDIT: Whether her seeming tired and defeated is actually bad characterization is another question; it's definitely understandable at this point. Just not love-inspiring.)

[thesuperdarkone2]

Just wait until we see a Templar do something as idiotic as what Fiona does. Wonder if Templar supporters will still justify it.

[rapscallioness]

I'm pretty sure Goldana was his half-sister as Maric was known to sleep around a bit.  The maid stories are mostly true except for the fact that Alistair wasn't born from one of them.  The Alistair maid mother story was made up to protect him and also Maric.  Having a bastard son born to an Orlesian Warden Elven Mage, older than your legitimate heir would not go over well at court.

 

Also even in DAO it was suspected that someone like Fiona was Alistair's mother if I remember correctly before the novels.  It was one of those theory things along the  lines of "is the Black City Arlathan?" or "are old gods elven gods?" but a bit less epic and now explained.

 

 

Well, yes, Goldana was his half sister.

 

But none of that really matters. It was a retcon. An unnecessary retcon for no good reason. It came to nothing. I thought there was some good reason the writers felt compelled to do that. But no.

 

Unless they were just trying to protect the image of Maric as well as Eamon. So now Alistair is a love child of a casanova king that finally fell in love.  Instead of just the basturd son of an arrogant, privileged king and a scullery maid.

 

And it was not a fact until they made it a fact later. Retcon.

[Herr Uhl]

Just wait until we see a Templar do something as idiotic as what Fiona does. Wonder if Templar supporters will still justify it.

 

You mean like ingesting red lyrium en masse and following a deluded madman?

[Boost32]

Just wait until we see a Templar do something as idiotic as what Fiona does. Wonder if Templar supporters will still justify it.

Templars leadership did something worse than what Fiona did, the difference is that we can kill them if we side with the Templars.

[Balek-Vriege]

She may have signed with Tevinter out of desperation, but here YOU are... inquisition, seeking the mages aid. Seems to me like a good time to go "ya know what Tevinter? Nvm. We're going to ally with the Inquisition instead. We aren't interested in slavery."
She never put joining tevinter to vote, as that would have been rejected by the majority of the mages. I only met 1 mage who supported the decision.
They were under no obligation to honor the alliance with tevinter, as long as they are on ferleden soil.

She never balks. Even when having options, she's still ready to go the slavery route.

Even 'after' you defeat Alexius, she STILL balks at your offer. Allister is kicking her out, and she's like "I've got no other choice, but to help you on your terms..."

 

Here's the problem though.  We're looking at it from our meta perspective as if Fiona knows what we know:

 

1.  This is "Tevinter" were talking about.  From her perspective she has been officially enslaved into the Tevinter Empire and not by Venatori cultists.  Breaking the alliance could have serious repercussions.  At the very least fiona breaking the slave deal and joining the Inquisition could have caused a major conflict between Tevinter and the Inquisition in the Hinterlands.  At worst the Inquisition would have been officially seen as stealing Tevinter property (Southern Mages) and leading to all out declaration of war from Tevinter Empire proper.

 

2.  The Inquisition is still young and not a large force by any measure.  Fiona thinks she has the backing of the most powerful empire next to Orlais.

 

3.  The only thing protecting the Mages from Ferelden/Templar forces are the Tevinter Mages held up in Redcliffe Castle.  Actually the Ferelden army under Alistair arrives to retake it just as the Inquisition takes Redcliffe from Alexius.  In the doomsday timeline they and the Inquisition try many times and fail to retake Redcliffe.  Although that's meta knowledge the characters ingame know Redcliffe is near impossible to take.  Breaking the alliance right there from Fiona's perspective would be idiotic with no assurance of Inquisition protection from Templars or what the terms would be.  Nor would there be an assurance that the Inquisition could take on Tevinter Mages after reneging on the deal.  You don't burn your bridges before you cross them.

 

4.  The Inquisitor is not offering an alliance at this point, knowing full well that the person in charge of the mages by that point is Alexius and not Fiona.  That's why the Inquisitor starts negotiations with him instead.  So partly the reason why Fiona doesn't drop Tevinter for the Inquisition is because the Inquisitor officially hasn't asked (except saying that he/she met Fiona in Val Royeaux which didn't happen for this Fiona).  The Inquisitor is outplayed by this point even if he/she wants to offer an Alliance, which leads to the events of In Hushed Whispers to get the mages back.

 

Also Fiona didn't just sign on in desperation.  She was time traveling conned into the decision along with most other mages.  How would you fair against an organization trying to force you into servitude when they're using time travel magic and infiltrators to change events to their liking?  I doubt very well.

 

Edit:  @Rapsallioness

 

That's not a Retcon.  It's story twist/advancement.  There's no established fact of who Alistair's mother was in DAO.  He had a story he and others were told since he never knew his mother since she died at "child birth" (usually how bastard son of the king/someone else important/scandalous cover stories start).

[Korva]

It's just lazy in my opinion. Relying on the assumption that people read the book so they don't have to do an character develop or spend much effort on her in the game. I feel they did this with Celine, Briala, and Gaspard as well. The writers assume I already know who these people are or care about what happens to them, well I don't and since the game didn't give me any insight or reason to care, I never will.

 

Yep, same here. I don't read franchise fiction almost as a rule, and I certainly don't appreciate it when a game seems to assume that I have. Games need to be self-contained in terms of story and characters, period.

 

Even Varric suffers from this. He feels like a shallow cameo rather than a fleshed out character because "hey everyone remembers Varric and already likes him!" if I hadn't played DA2 I'd have been like "who is this random guy and why is he here?"

 

I didn't play DA2, but I thought he was a pretty decent -- and decently fleshed-out -- character ... though I was a bit annoyed by how much the writers seemed to push him as the guy I'm expected to like because everyone else does, too.

 

What does Fiona do?  Actually has the audacity to criticize Verana for being leinent on the Wardens.

 

Wow. Seriously? I thought her unrepentant smugness was the cherry on top of the bowl of curdled crap she pulls off, but this is just as bad. Did they deliberately set this character up for being despised or what? If so, they sure succeeded with me. While there are various factors that make me prefer the templar mission, Fiona is single-handedly responsible for me not actually being able to stomach siding with the mages, she's just that insufferable.

 

Also, her being Alistair's mother is nonsense, a blatant retcon for a perfectly workable explanation in Origins, and silly franchise fiction should never top the actual game in terms of lore. While even the Origins explanation made Maric and Eamon look like complete turds, adding Fiona to the mix makes it even worse.

 

[o Ventus]

I hate her because i dont agree with her about anything, i dont think mages should be free, i find them stupid to go to a war they cant win, they betrayed Ferelden when they invited Tevinter into Redcliff and if you do In Hished Whisper she says "I would do everything again", she is stupid and is better off as a dead corpse, because she cant affect anyone else with her stupidty if she is dead.

Except she didn't invite anybody anywhere. Alexius and the Venatori stepped in and took over Redcliffe with their time magic. How is the mages being in a war Fiona's fault when Anders was the one who kickstarted the whole thing by destroying the Kirkwall Chantry? Fiona only voted for independence and only leads the other mages because she was already the Grand Enchanter and the other mages were following her before the rebellion.

 

If you're going to complain about somebody, at least get it right.

[o Ventus]

Everyone knows of Tevinter, the idea that she and her mages would be anything but fodder or slaves to them is ludicrous. Also, Redcliffe has mages in it who voted against the alliance and were forced to go along with it.  She could have reached out to a variety of sources including the Inquisition and the crown, but instead, she hurried into a Tevinter alliance which apparently she didn't look into at all.

 

For me the "I never went to Oralis" thing stuck in my craw, feels like a stupid lie and is never explained, if it is time magic, something that has never before existed inDA, the rules of time travel need to be laid down or hinted at.  I kinda think the problem with Fiona is the bad writing and set-up for that quest that does no one any favors.

She knew they would be slaves (I think she specifically says indentured, but it's Tevinter, so it's really slavery), on the condition that the children and the sick and frail don't fight. Alexius goes back on this and has them fight anyway, which is why Fiona tries to go back on the deal in Redcliffe. From Fiona's perspective, Tevinter were also the only group who would take any action to help them (even if "help" means slavery, since it's still better than having all of your allies die from Templars). She makes it clear that Tevinter was a last resort and that she didn't see any other available options. It isn't as if her first idea was to go to Tevinter. She didn't "hurry" into it.

[Giantdeathrobot]

She knew they would be slaves (I think she specifically says indentured, but it's Tevinter, so it's really slavery), on the condition that the children and the sick and frail don't fight. Alexius goes back on this and has them fight anyway, which is why Fiona tries to go back on the deal in Redcliffe. From Fiona's perspective, Tevinter were also the only group who would take any action to help them (even if "help" means slavery, since it's still better than having all of your allies die from Templars). She makes it clear that Tevinter was a last resort and that she didn't see any other available options. It isn't as if her first idea was to go to Tevinter. She didn't "hurry" into it.

 

1. If she took Alexius at his word, it's on her. Tevinter magister surges completely out of nowhere and she trusts him not to abuse his position of force? Sure, that's going to work out just fine.

 

2. If she was conned, it's on her. Smart leaders usually don't. Her fighting you at Haven does not help matters here, either.

 

3. What Templar Army of Impending Doom? The Templars are currently faffing about at Therinfall Redoubt, except from a handful of rebels in the Hinterlands that the Inquisitor dispatches at level 3. There is no sign of an army powerful enough to take on hundreds of mages taking position in one of the most defensible castles in Ferelden, while having the support of the local Arl to boot.

 

4. Even if we ignore the above (and I don't) how do you excuse the massacre of the Tranquil, which the mages were in charge of, right under Fiona's nose? Because for me that's the biggest thing. Making mistakes, yeah, people do that. But that's bigger than a mistake, that's either being an accomplice or being a spectacularily blind idiot. And again, the fact that the player cannot chew her out on this makes it worst.

 

Honestly, I support mage freedom to a degree, but I would dearly love to have been able to kick Fiona's incompetent ass out of the Grand Enchanter position and hand it to someone else. That storyline really needed a Ser Barris-like figure to balance Fiona being herself.

[Ranadiel Marius]

She knew they would be slaves (I think she specifically says indentured, but it's Tevinter, so it's really slavery), on the condition that the children and the sick and frail don't fight. Alexius goes back on this and has them fight anyway, which is why Fiona tries to go back on the deal in Redcliffe. From Fiona's perspective, Tevinter were also the only group who would take any action to help them (even if "help" means slavery, since it's still better than having all of your allies die from Templars). She makes it clear that Tevinter was a last resort and that she didn't see any other available options. It isn't as if her first idea was to go to Tevinter. She didn't "hurry" into it.

Since when is whimpering like a kicked puppy trying to back out of a deal? O.o

[BloodyTalon]

So any chance we can get a dlc where we judge her? It would make everything better with going mage

Cause can think of a good use for her skill after making her tranquil

[katling73]

I would seriously have liked to judge her as well as Alexius at Skyhold. I tend to ally with the mages not because of her but in spite of her because I don't want the mages to suffer for her sheer and utter stupidity. I invite her to stay as the Inquisition's guest not because I want her there but because I want to discomfort Alexius. She is the worst possible leader the mages could have. It's probably a good idea that she stays in the library and doesn't try doing anything practical (like Ser Barris does) because she'd probably screw that up as well.

 

What I would have liked was a situation like at Therinfall Redoubt. Where Fiona was the equivalent to Lucius/Envy (maybe a halfway point boss battle before you get to the final boss battle with Alexius) and there was a mage equivalent to Ser Barris to take over leadership of the mages afterward. Then we could have mage related war table missions and actually feel like the leader of the mages is contributing to the war effort instead of standing in the library whining about things.

[Barquiel]

I don't hate her at all...I actually liked her in the novels, and the rebellion was absolutely necessary. As for Redcliffe, she wanted to do the right thing for her mages and protect them from being slaughtered by the templars. We know the templars attacked Redcliffe and in addition you have tevinter spies who infiltrated the village as refugees, feeding Fiona wrong information about an imminent attack. She was in a desperate situation and saw no other way out but to accept Alexius help. While I don't approve what she did...I believe in second chances, and Fiona used her second chance.

[Boost32]

Except she didn't invite anybody anywhere. Alexius and the Venatori stepped in and took over Redcliffe with their time magic. How is the mages being in a war Fiona's fault when Anders was the one who kickstarted the whole thing by destroying the Kirkwall Chantry? Fiona only voted for independence and only leads the other mages because she was already the Grand Enchanter and the other mages were following her before the rebellion.

If you're going to complain about somebody, at least get it right.

You should be the one to get it right.
They werent at war until they decided to leave the Chantry. She had no allies, less numbers, no good fortification to defend hereople and faced a enemy who was designed to combat mages, if you cant see how stupid she was its not my fault.
The Venatori didnt invade Redcliff, they were invited by Fiona.

[KonguZya]

I haven't read any of the books or comics, so I just knew a few key points about Fiona. She was this mysterious elven former Grey Warden mage who mothered Alistair, and was leading the mage rebellion. So she sounded like a really interesting character, but what we got in-game was very, very underwhelming. I was not impressed by her in the slightest, and in addition to that, she allied with Tevinter--probably the worst mistake that the mage rebellion could make, as it completely undermines the rhetoric of freedom and equality for mages, and just comfirms the Templars' and the public's negative views of the rebel mages.

[AresKeith]

Just wait until we see a Templar do something as idiotic as what Fiona does. Wonder if Templar supporters will still justify it.

 

You mean the Lord Seeker who everyone also called an idiot?

[Balek-Vriege]

1. If she took Alexius at his word, it's on her. Tevinter magister surges completely out of nowhere and she trusts him not to abuse his position of force? Sure, that's going to work out just fine.

 

2. If she was conned, it's on her. Smart leaders usually don't. Her fighting you at Haven does not help matters here, either.

 

3. What Templar Army of Impending Doom? The Templars are currently faffing about at Therinfall Redoubt, except from a handful of rebels in the Hinterlands that the Inquisitor dispatches at level 3. There is no sign of an army powerful enough to take on hundreds of mages taking position in one of the most defensible castles in Ferelden, while having the support of the local Arl to boot.

 

4. Even if we ignore the above (and I don't) how do you excuse the massacre of the Tranquil, which the mages were in charge of, right under Fiona's nose? Because for me that's the biggest thing. Making mistakes, yeah, people do that. But that's bigger than a mistake, that's either being an accomplice or being a spectacularily blind idiot. And again, the fact that the player cannot chew her out on this makes it worst.

 

Honestly, I support mage freedom to a degree, but I would dearly love to have been able to kick Fiona's incompetent ass out of the Grand Enchanter position and hand it to someone else. That storyline really needed a Ser Barris-like figure to balance Fiona being herself.

 

1.  Yep it is on her and character wise, she doesn't back down from that responsibility/mistake.  She does blame herself but feels it was the only way at the time to save her people.  However, the game makes it clear that it was hard not to take Alexius at his word since events seemed to confirm them (events that were set in motion by his spies).

 

2.  Not really. I will ask again how any leader would do better if someone was trying to force them into servitude with time travel magic and had an army of cultist spies at their disposal.  We don't even know how many times or to the extent Alexius went to convince the mages into slavery.  Not exactly a "Oh you should have known better!" moment.

 

"Yeah you should have known that Tevinter is bad AND that Alexius was using time travel magic which was impossible pre-breach AND that cultists with this time magic had infiltrated your chaotic band of Mage rebels changing events to make you join up with them instead of the Inquisitor that you originally went to Val Royeaux to see first but can't remember because the cultists changed time on you! Shame on you!"  

 

3.  There was no Templar Army of Impending Doom that's clear.  It was a ruse by Venatori infiltrators who convinced most mages that there was one.  Val Royeaux Fiona makes no mention of this Templar army because it didn't exist as a lie yet and she had plenty of time to go to the Inquisition for help.  The fact is there were Templars outside Redcliffe village battling apostates in constant battle until the Inquisitor shows up.  The fact that the Mage/Templar war is on the doorstep of Redcliffe is actually a big deal and shows it wouldn't take much to convince Fiona and others of their dire need for Tevinter Mages.  Things like levels and group difficulty don't factor in.
 

[Aimi]

Fiona only voted for independence and only leads the other mages because she was already the Grand Enchanter and the other mages were following her before the rebellion.

"Only"?

Let's ignore the debate about whether it was a good idea to vote for independence, because nobody's going to convince anybody of anything there. Look: I'm generally pro-mage, even if I like to play devil's advocate, and I think that the Circle system was very seriously flawed, yada yada yada. I generally favor the games' mage-freedom outcomes, and I'd probably try to make softened Lels the Divine every time if it didn't mean that mai waifu couldn't set down her responsibilities and come back to me. Yet I also think that Fiona was an atrocious leader who simply did not do her job competently.

If she was leading the push for independence, what was her plan to achieve and sustain it? (She didn't have one.) What preparations had she made for the safety of her followers and for their survival through the war, let alone victory? (None.) What kind of a leader faces nearly certain war without a plan? (A very very bad one.)

She led her followers into a war that they could not win, without even mounting the tiniest amount of preparation for it. Or, more bluntly, she got her followers killed because she didn't do her job. She failed to keep control over her faction. Eventually, she led her followers into slavery - a situation infinitely, unquestionably worse than anything that they faced in the Circles - because her foolish leadership had left her what she believed to be no alternative.

And let's not leave out the destruction that the war caused for the ordinary people of Thedas.

I don't hate Fiona, because hate is a luxury best not wasted on video game characters. But if she were real, I might very well hate her (especially if I were a mage), for helping to start a war that got countless people killed, a war that she had no chance of winning because of her own stupidity.

[Poledo]

Poor writing. I had the cahones to rebel with the mages but at the first sign of difficulty I sell us into servitude with Tevinter - unbelievable. Made her come off as a complete bafoon.

[Catche Jagger]

Just wait until we see a Templar do something as idiotic as what Fiona does. Wonder if Templar supporters will still justify it.

Lord Seeker Lucius and Samson. And no, there is no apologist camp for them.

[Aimi]

Lord Seeker Lucius and Samson. And no, there is no apologist camp for them.

Haha, Lucius. "k gaise ima go buddy up with deez apocalyptic cultists and murderknife all mai doodz"

[Barquiel]

"Only"?

Let's ignore the debate about whether it was a good idea to vote for independence, because nobody's going to convince anybody of anything there. Look: I'm generally pro-mage, even if I like to play devil's advocate, and I think that the Circle system was very seriously flawed, yada yada yada. I generally favor the games' mage-freedom outcomes, and I'd probably try to make softened Lels the Divine every time if it didn't mean that mai waifu couldn't set down her responsibilities and come back to me. Yet I also think that Fiona was an atrocious leader who simply did not do her job competently.

If she was leading the push for independence, what was her plan to achieve and sustain it? (She didn't have one.) What preparations had she made for the safety of her followers and for their survival through the war, let alone victory? (None.) What kind of a leader faces nearly certain war without a plan? (A very very bad one.)

She led her followers into a war that they could not win, without even mounting the tiniest amount of preparation for it. Or, more bluntly, she got her followers killed because she didn't do her job. She failed to keep control over her faction. Eventually, she led her followers into slavery - a situation infinitely, unquestionably worse than anything that they faced in the Circles - because her foolish leadership had left her what she believed to be no alternative.

And let's not leave out the destruction that the war caused for the ordinary people of Thedas.

I don't hate Fiona, because hate is a luxury best not wasted on video game characters. But if she were real, I might very well hate her (especially if I were a mage), for helping to start a war that got countless people killed, a war that she had no chance of winning because of her own stupidity.

How do you know she had no plan? We know nothing about the actual war, but the mage-templar conflict lasted several months. I think that would have only been possible with some kind of preparation. And if Fiona was that incompetent the rebellion wouldn't have lasted for as long as it has (unless the templars were just as incompetent of course).

And the Templars were at the negotiating table, so she was at least partially successful. After that, things went south though (but that wasn't exactly Fiona's fault).

[Catche Jagger]

Haha, Lucius. "k gaise ima go buddy up with deez apocalyptic cultists and murderknife all mai doodz"

Truely a complicated individual worthy of our sympathy and admiration.

#LuciusBestCharacter2014
#LuciusLives
#LuciusForDA4Companion

[Aimi]

How do you know she had no plan? We know nothing about the actual war, but the mage-templar conflict lasted several months. I think that would have only been possible with some kind of preparation. And if Fiona was that incompetent the rebellion wouldn't have lasted for as long as it has (unless the templars were just as incompetent of course).

And the Templars were at the negotiating table, so she was at least partially successful. After that, things went south though (but that wasn't exactly Fiona's fault).

In part I'm arguing from lack of evidence, which I suppose isn't an ironclad case, but she certainly doesn't seem to have a plan in Asunder, and after Redcliffe when addressed in Skyhold she admits to still not even knowing what her own war goals were, let alone how to achieve them. It might be a bit tendentious of me to say this, but even the South Park gnomes had an end goal (profit); Fiona didn't even know if it was a good idea to resurrect the Circles or not after the war was already over, and you can't have a plan for reaching a goal...that you don't have.

What little we know of her activity during the war bears this out. First her instinct was GET EVERYBODY IN ONE PLACE SO WE CAN EASILY BE KILLED, which would've played right into Lambert's hands had Cole not assassinated him and broken up the Templar/Seeker offensive. We see in Asunder that she doesn't have adequate control of her followers even before the Breach, and she certainly doesn't have control afterward when random apostate mage-supremacy kill squads roam the Hinterlands. Her position in the immediate aftermath of the Conclave is so precarious that she claims that her mages were on the brink of destruction at the hands of, apparently, the random assortment of renegade templars that infests the Hinterlands and that the Herald wipes out in the course of securing the Crossroads. That reads like an endless trainwreck of failure to me, and that implies a lack of preparation.

As for the Conclave itself...well, Solas points out in banter that the two sides weren't so exhausted that they were willing to sue for terms, they were merely interested in seeing if the other side would give up. He's probably overstating his case somewhat, but at least in the mages' case, they were not winning much of anything, and they were only surviving because of Fereldan royal protection.

If you lead a group into war, and the group gets trashed in that war, you screwed up. Either the war was unwinnable, in which case it was stupid to go to war; or the war was winnable, and it was stupid to do the things you did to lose.