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[Cainhurst Crow]

Conclave blows up and no suspects? Blame the templars.

Bunch of foreign mages and a magister show up out of no where with full knowledge of the situation? Yup, no way they could have had a part in the conclave.

[Don Lionheart]

*laughs & smh* I'm sometimes inclined to think that the disconnect between who a character is in books and comics, versus what they become in-game is the stuff that serves to do nothing but maintain interest in the respective game... Even a bad one. It's like BioWare is exercising some kind of weird pyscho-social experiment that we pay to be a part of. *laugh - snort*

 

Well, while that theory is certainly entertaining, it's wrong in its assertion that DA:I is a bad game, which it's not; it's a fantastic game, absolutely awesome.

 

I haven't seen anyone mention the fact that Alexius and his retinue showing up in Redcliffe two days after the Conclave despite their having ti have trekked across a couple of countries to get there as a reason Fona should have been exceedingly suspicious of him so I'll just throw that out there. As an added bonus, everyone telking Fiona to take the deal was a stranger to her. Nah, nothing that should have raised red flags there. Let's all go to Tevinter!

 

She does say something along the lines of "...Though their arrival was certainly...timely..."

[pdusen]

 The "original timeline" she immediately went to the Inquisition for an alliance by traveling to Val Royeaux, meeting with the Inquisitor personally.

 

By the time the Inquisitor travels back to Ferelden, Venatori agents lead by Alexius had used time magic to alter that original meeting, arriving first all the way from Tevinter even before Fiona met the Inquisitor (which is why she no longer remembers and feels strange etc. based on your dialogue choice). 

 

I do wish that the game had done more to make it clear that this was what happened. I was utterly confused by Fiona not remembering inviting us and just assumed that someone, for some reason, had been impersonating her in Val Royeaux, until someone on these boards explained this.

[Tremere]

Well, while that theory is certainly entertaining, it's wrong in its assertion that DA:I is a bad game, which it's not; it's a fantastic game, absolutely awesome.

Says you and others... And likewise there are those on the other end of the spectrum who think differently. That's the beauty of an opinion... They can't be wrong. However, If you're enjoying the game to the degree that you assert, then I say more power to you.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Conclave blows up and no suspects? Blame the templars.

Bunch of foreign mages and a magister show up out of no where with full knowledge of the situation? Yup, no way they could have had a part in the conclave.

Lucius Corin the leader of the templars was in league with Corypheus as we later learned. How did the Grey Wardens get past the security of the Divine? there were qunari mercs there for that very reason. The mages sent to the conclave would be able to recognize their own and we know Fiona had no idea who was behind the conclave. Alexius or Venatori had to go back in time using time travel just to get to southern thedas in time so it's unlikely they were there during the breach. Lucius was later proven to be fully complicit with the Elder One. The evidence does seem more damning for the templars.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Lucius Corin the leader of the templars was in league with Corypheus as we later learned. How did the Grey Wardens get past the security of the Divine? there were qunari mercs there for that very reason. The mages sent to the conclave would be able to recognize their own and we know Fiona had no idea who was behind the conclave. Alexius or Venatori had to go back in time using time travel just to get to southern thedas in time so it's unlikely they were there during the breach. Lucius was later proven to be fully complicit with the Elder One. The evidence does seem more damning for the templars.

 

Your using circumstantial evidence to make that claim. At the time of the conversation with Fiona, where she throws blame at the templars for orchestrating the breach and attack on the divine, she has absolutely 0 evidence to support her claim. The templars were in the same position as the mages, given both had rebelled against the chantry at that point and neither was in a position to get to the divine more than the other. If you think the divine had templars guarding her, and that they let the grey wardens inside, I'd like to see the evidence for this.

 

Fiona wasn't at the conclave, but Leiliana and Cassandra were, and neither ever mention templar security of the divine, nor even give credance to Fiona's claim that the templars were the one who killed Justinia, and they were right, because it was the wardens working with Corypheus, many of which were utilizing blood magic to subdue her, and likely had used it to subdue the security she had.

 

And even with Alexius going back in time, he still showed up 2 days after the breach first opened, 2 days after the conclave was attacked, and there was still no reason to trust this person from tevinter, who was in Ferelden with a large host of allies, and who could just as likely have been responsible for the attack. Fiona however trusted him, most likely cause he was a mage, and on little else but that.

[Ashagar]

Lucius Corin the leader of the templars was in league with Corypheus as we later learned. How did the Grey Wardens get past the security of the Divine? there were qunari mercs there for that very reason. The mages sent to the conclave would be able to recognize their own and we know Fiona had no idea who was behind the conclave. Alexius or Venatori had to go back in time using time travel just to get to southern thedas in time so it's unlikely they were there during the breach. Lucius was later proven to be fully complicit with the Elder One. The evidence does seem more damning for the templars.

 

While Lord Seeker Lucius, Samson and a few of the knight captains may have been aligned with Corypheus but the Knight-Vigilant certainly wasn't In fact they pointedly murder him after the conclave because he was a major threat to their plans for the order. I also doubt the rest of the leadership that blew up with the conclave were aligned with Corypheus and the seekers themselves certainly weren't which is why Luicus lured them to their deaths.

 

If there was anything I did wonder it was where the knight enchanters and knight divines that personally serve the divine were but given lack of evidence I have to presume Corypheus and his minions either killed them or managed to separate the divine from them and they got blown up while looking for her when the conclave went boom.

[thesuperdarkone2]

While Lord Seeker Lucius, Samson and a few of the knight captains may have been aligned with Corypheus but the Knight-Vigilant certainly wasn't In fact they pointedly murder him after the conclave because he was a major threat to their plans for the order. I also doubt the rest of the leadership that blew up with the conclave were aligned with Corypheus and the seekers themselves certainly weren't which is why Luicus lured them to their deaths.

 

If there was anything I did wonder it was where the knight enchanters and knight divines that personally serve the divine were but given lack of evidence I have to presume Corypheus and his minions either killed them or managed to separate the divine from them and they got blown up while looking for her when the conclave went boom.

You have to ask WHY did the Templars ever think of siding with Corypheus. If you side with the Templars, Denam isn't brainwashed considering you can recruit him as an agent. At least the mages have an excuse for being desperate. Why would the Templar leaders ever agree to help a DEMON and a MAGISTER?! They were apparently winning the war so they had no excuse for using power. The Templars just proved how corrupt and idiotic they are. Having their organization wiped out was probably one of the best things that ever occurred if that's who their leaders are.

[Ashagar]

Much if not all of the high ranking Templar leadership died at the conclave for which they can't be blamed but in a military organization like the Templars that is crippling and that's when the Conspirators made their moves by murdering the Knight-Vigilant and luring the seekers away eliminating any threats to their plans which admittedly wasn't going too well given the who massacre much of the order thing they attempt during the recruitment missions.

 

I am not sure why the Consiptors betrayed both their subordinates and superiors but Denam rants about who wouldn't want to serve a living god and Lord Seeker Lucius wants to destroy the world to make a new one because he feels the current one is dark corrupted and twisted.

[KaiserShep]

You have to ask WHY did the Templars ever think of siding with Corypheus. If you side with the Templars, Denam isn't brainwashed considering you can recruit him as an agent. At least the mages have an excuse for being desperate. Why would the Templar leaders ever agree to help a DEMON and a MAGISTER?! They were apparently winning the war so they had no excuse for using power. The Templars just proved how corrupt and idiotic they are. Having their organization wiped out was probably one of the best things that ever occurred if that's who their leaders are.

No doubt Corypheus offered a rock solid benefits package.

Exalt the will that is full coverage for dental and disability.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Some would argue the mens rea should be a factor in the judgement of a person's crime or "stupidity". Careless vs criminal, intentional vs unintentional, maliciously or willingly. All these factors into the judgement of a person's crime. It's like trying to judge Quentin and Emile de Launcet with the same strict punishments. Fiona was entrapped and under duress while Lucius was willfull, knowledgeable, malicious. To say that she deserves execution or some other harsh punishment on the same scale as Lucius some would claim would make the fairness of the judgement in doubt.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Some would argue the mens rea should be a factor in the judgement of a person's crime or "stupidity". Careless vs criminal, intentional vs unintentional, maliciously or willingly. All these factors into the judgement of a person's crime. It's like trying to judge Quentin and Emile de Launcet with the same strict punishments. Fiona was entrapped and under duress while Lucius was willfull, knowledgeable, malicious. To say that she deserves execution or some other harsh punishment on the same scale as Lucius some would claim would make the fairness of the judgement in doubt.

Being truly and ridiculously careless is criminal. It's called negligence. I agree that it's less serious than deliberately deciding to, say, run over a small child or give a would-be-god an army, but it's still punishable. As for the punishment of negligence, I'd prefer to simply keep her stripped of power and warn her against ever attempting to make any decision more important than what book she reads next. Despite that leaning of mine, however, you can easily argue that Fiona is a danger to others due to her combination of negligence and charisma, and that the world needs her to either die or become Tranquil. Or you can just want revenge, which if we're being honest is a common desire on this board.

 

And as to it being unfair that she is (in this hypothetical) punished as badly as Denam can be: while I agree that Denam deserves pain and anguish more than she does, and probably deserves more of them than she does, there are limits on how much of that you can dish out: if you execute or Tranquil Fiona, what will you do to Denam or Samson that is worse?

[o Ventus]

No doubt Corypheus offered a rock solid benefits package.

Exalt the will that is full coverage for dental and disability.

It's still better than what the Chantry used to offer the Templars if you were ever injured or killed on the job: a wish and a prayer.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

It's still better than what the Chantry used to offer the Templars if you were ever injured or killed on the job: a wish and a prayer.

I'm pretty sure the Templars were offered magical healing if they were posted someplace that made that practical.

[Shadow Fox]

Female Qunari mage, Verana Adaar.  Allied with, not conscripted but allied with mages.  Verana was willing to give Fiona the benefit of the doubt given the extreme pressure she was under.  That was probably too forgiving of Verana, but there you have it.  All was okay, Fiona was settled nicely into the tower and Verana figured, good, we've got allies.

 

Fast forward to Adamant.  Once again, Verana looks for the best in people because, hey, don't let  the horns scare you, she's a people person.  Allies with Wardens and refuses to judge Ser Ruth because  of the vital role Wardens play and the dedication they have always shown. to their duty.  Verana later goes and checks on Fiona because, again, people person and she cares.  What does Fiona do?  Actually has the audacity to criticize Verana for being leinent on the Wardens.  That's when Verana decided Fiona could go suck deathroot.  Of all the people to criticize a group for making an extreme decision under extraordinary circumstances...

 

Well, screw you, Fiona, Verana has better things to do; like shaving naughty messages into her private bits for Sera.

Oh hey another reason for me to bash her brains in.

[Iakus]

While Lord Seeker Lucius, Samson and a few of the knight captains may have been aligned with Corypheus but the Knight-Vigilant certainly wasn't In fact they pointedly murder him after the conclave because he was a major threat to their plans for the order. I also doubt the rest of the leadership that blew up with the conclave were aligned with Corypheus and the seekers themselves certainly weren't which is why Luicus lured them to their deaths.

 

If there was anything I did wonder it was where the knight enchanters and knight divines that personally serve the divine were but given lack of evidence I have to presume Corypheus and his minions either killed them or managed to separate the divine from them and they got blown up while looking for her when the conclave went boom.

Yup.  And the red lyrium was working its way down the ranks.  They focused on teh senior templars first, get them hooked on the stuff as an "alternative" to the standard lyrium they now have a very hard time obtaining.  An insidious use of both rank and addiction to hook the Templars

[Don Lionheart]

Being truly and ridiculously careless is criminal. It's called negligence. I agree that it's less serious than deliberately deciding to, say, run over a small child or give a would-be-god an army, but it's still punishable. As for the punishment of negligence, I'd prefer to simply keep her stripped of power and warn her against ever attempting to make any decision more important than what book she reads next. Despite that leaning of mine, however, you can easily argue that Fiona is a danger to others due to her combination of negligence and charisma, and that the world needs her to either die or become Tranquil. Or you can just want revenge, which if we're being honest is a common desire on this board.

 

And as to it being unfair that she is (in this hypothetical) punished as badly as Denam can be: while I agree that Denam deserves pain and anguish more than she does, and probably deserves more of them than she does, there are limits on how much of that you can dish out: if you execute or Tranquil Fiona, what will you do to Denam or Samson that is worse?

 

While these thoughts are fair, if you were to talk about her being criminally liable for something, duress is also to be considered.  Negligence is criminal, yes, and is, generally, punished with a softer sentence than any other mens rea (they include Recklessly, Knowingly, and Purposeful, for those who care).  However, often times a decision made under duress is excusable, and I think the argument Fiona was under duress has been made in previous posts, and I think is a valid point of view as well.

[SharlenaSharlena]

What about disliking her for not being upfront about being Alistair's mother or at least Kieran's grandmother to Morrigan? Also, who gives her the authority to sell an entire class of people to another country? I felt she was disingenuous about her entire role and what she hoped to get out of it...

[In Exile]

While these thoughts are fair, if you were to talk about her being criminally liable for something, duress is also to be considered.  Negligence is criminal, yes, and is, generally, punished with a softer sentence than any other mens rea (they include Recklessly, Knowingly, and Purposeful, for those who care).  However, often times a decision made under duress is excusable, and I think the argument Fiona was under duress has been made in previous posts, and I think is a valid point of view as well.

 

Duress is a complicated concept, and among other things requires proof that there were, in effect, no alternatives and that the person asking you to make the choice was the one who was coercing you. Fiona just felt like she was boxed in, but that's not really duress. The only people who you could say were coercing her were the templars, but they didn't ask her to do anything. 

[Don Lionheart]

Duress is a complicated concept, and among other things requires proof that there were, in effect, no alternatives and that the person asking you to make the choice was the one who was coercing you. Fiona just felt like she was boxed in, but that's not really duress. The only people who you could say were coercing her were the templars, but they didn't ask her to do anything. 

 

Oh, I agree, of course duress is complicated, which is why I said that an argument could be made, not that it's a slam dunk answer.

[In Exile]

Oh, I agree, of course duress is complicated, which is why I said that an argument could be made, not that it's a slam dunk answer.

 

Oh, I didn't mean to directly challenge you on the point. It was my intention just to add further explanation. 

[Don Lionheart]

Oh, I didn't mean to directly challenge you on the point. It was my intention just to add further explanation. 

 

Haha, it's all good.

 

What about disliking her for not being upfront about being Alistair's mother or at least Kieran's grandmother to Morrigan? Also, who gives her the authority to sell an entire class of people to another country? I felt she was disingenuous about her entire role and what she hoped to get out of it...

 

I think it had more to do with not wanting to tarnish Alistair's lineage/heritage, and she doesn't have to be Kieran's grandmother.  As for who gave her authority, she was defacto leader of the mages, so if not official authority, unofficial at least.

[Paragonslustre]

Warning, spoiler for Templar version.

 

Spoiler

 

Nah, she's faking it - I can see her breathing 

 

Spoiler

Oh well, when I support the Templars in my next playthrough at least I get to slice and dice her