Nah, she's faking it - I can see her breathing
Spoiler
As much as I dislike her, I can't bring myself to do a run through where I kill her. Mainly because if I play by my canon, I do get to see Alistair. Oh well, can always change the history of the run through, then slice and dice her with little guilt....
Haha, maybe he was giving women a compliment saying they're more cunning then men? Lol. Trying to be a peacemaker before this turns into a flame thread; we've been so productive, and I'm quite enjoying it, especially because I started the thread!
Ye, actually that came out sounding wrong when read together with what I said earlier in that post.
What I tried to say mages are fickle in the sense of that old meme: "Don't meddle in the affairs of wizards for they are fickle and quick to anger" and as we know women are said to be fickle and definitely more cunning than men (I know, I live with two of them) but in no means I meant mages and women are equally fickle and stuff, just that added together the two might make a bigger equation than its separate parts.
Ah, heck. Why am I trying to explain. Let's just say we all know how women are and leave it at that. Then everyone can reflect their own experiences with women into what was said.
Anybody siding with Corypheus is being stupid, mages or templars. Defending one by pointing out how stupid the other is seems dubious at best. It's a recurring theme in this thread. The stupidity of the templars doesn't make Fiona's dumb decisions any better.
But Fiona didn't make that decision, Bioware did.
The very fact that Fiona was wandering around Val Roy by herself completely carefree when we meet her suggests that the mages were feeling pretty confident about their chances of winning. So the entire desperation thing simply doesn't work. Especially since the time periods involved are about two weeks at most.
But time travel just doesn't make sense in the DA world (time travel doesn't make in any world), and Bioware really didn't handle it very well.
Ah, heck. Why am I trying to explain. Let's just say we all know how women are and leave it at that. Then everyone can reflect their own experiences with women into what was said.
I'm sorry, were you trying to make things worse? Come on man- try this one simple trick for figuring out whether you are saying something douche-y- anywhere you would use a blanket term to describe one ethnic group or gender, (in your case, the word "women") substitute this term in your mind with the phrase "black people". If you resay the original statement in your mind with the newly substituted phrase "black people", and it sounds racist or inappropriate (which it should), then guess what? Your comment is douche-y. This is a trick I think most people would benefit from, since by and large, we are probably not terribly douche-y as a society or individuals; and for the love of all that is holy- if you say something that sounds bad, and you get called on it and are actually smart enough to realize you made a mistake- just be big enough to say- "Oops, that sounded bad. Sorry." Don't try to rationalize why your comment was really okay and not offensive after all, yeesh.
Anywho- back OT. I don't hate her but I do think Fiona's a twit for signing up all her people for indentured servitude without even a by-your-leave, especially since (as others have said) she's already in the most defensible situation she could possibly hope for. My big beef with the situation is that I cannot offer the mages a partnership with the condition that she not be in charge. She has failed, on a massive level, and its beyond time to relieve her of her command, but by offering the mages a partnership rather than a retread of the Circle-situation (which I feel has already proven itself untenable), the game sets it up to look like tacit approval of what I consider a monumentally stupid series of actions, regardless of timeline shenanigans. I seriously wish I had the option to offer the mages something differnet, and then immediately fire Fiona and promote someone else.
But Fiona didn't make that decision, Bioware did.
The very fact that Fiona was wandering around Val Roy by herself completely carefree when we meet her suggests that the mages were feeling pretty confident about their chances of winning
. So the entire desperation thing simply doesn't work. Especially since the time periods involved are about two weeks at most.
But time travel just doesn't make sense in the DA world (time travel doesn't make in any world), and Bioware really didn't handle it very well.
The mages sought an alliance with a newly formed group that had been declared heretics. That doesn't scream desperation to you?
Which is confirmed when we actually see their position and compare it with the Templars. Both groups had gathered in one location with smaller offshoots without central leadership scattered and doing whatever they pleased.
But whereas the Templars had, at least, one fortress of their own and were eagerly invited by the nobles and Chantry into the capital, the mages were denied entry into any city and their current stronghold was entirely dependent upon the goodwill of Ferelden's king.
But Fiona didn't make that decision, Bioware did.
So Fiona made the decision since she's Bioware's character
I hate her cause she was an annoying boss fight when her army of cronies rolled up on my doorstep
She let the tranquil get brutally murdered right under her nose, she doesn't mention them so i figure they are beneath her notice, which is horrible because by insisting on a rebellion she made them vulnerable and didn't care enough to protect them. It's reprehensible.
@BlueGloves: Really appreciate you going to such lengths to educate me on the matter of socializing with people, but in your example of the bolded sentence you clinged to a wrong word.
You concentrated on the Who where I meant the acting word of the sentence to be How.
And my answer to that How is: Adorable.
Back in topic, someone commented my earlier post on this thread that I should just play on when I said I sympathize Fiona.
Well, now I did, Inquisition finally won. Have to say my opinion on her didn't change.
I'm too lazy to scroll back and check whether I mentioned I had read the book or not. I have, and that might give a little different perspective on her actions. Realizing what she has gone through kinda makes you understand her reasoning, or alternatively makes you justify her actions because of how adorable she is.
In any case, I sincerely believe she did the best one could do in that situation.
In any case, I sincerely believe she did the best one could do in that situation.
Anywho- back OT. I don't hate her but I do think Fiona's a twit for signing up all her people for indentured servitude without even a by-your-leave, especially since (as others have said) she's already in the most defensible situation she could possibly hope for. My big beef with the situation is that I cannot offer the mages a partnership with the condition that she not be in charge. She has failed, on a massive level, and its beyond time to relieve her of her command, but by offering the mages a partnership rather than a retread of the Circle-situation (which I feel has already proven itself untenable), the game sets it up to look like tacit approval of what I consider a monumentally stupid series of actions, regardless of timeline shenanigans. I seriously wish I had the option to offer the mages something differnet, and then immediately fire Fiona and promote someone else.
I like that "...with the condition she's not in charge" statement. See, I still like her, like I have said multiple times in here. However, I want to point out that she's only in de facto in charge, she holds no official authority anymore. She says this herself when you ask her about still leading the mages, she's like, "They still call me Grand Enchanter despite that position no longer existing. And should the position ever return, someone else shall take the title." Or at least something along those lines. In my opinion, this means that any other mage who earns the respect of the other mages could decide to take over leadership. At this point, it seems to me that Fiona would welcome someone else doing it, but no one else wants the burden that she bears.
I like that "...with the condition she's not in charge" statement. See, I still like her, like I have said multiple times in here. However, I want to point out that she's only in de facto in charge, she holds no official authority anymore. She says this herself when you ask her about still leading the mages, she's like, "They still call me Grand Enchanter despite that position no longer existing. And should the position ever return, someone else shall take the title." Or at least something along those lines. In my opinion, this means that any other mage who earns the respect of the other mages could decide to take over leadership. At this point, it seems to me that Fiona would welcome someone else doing it, but no one else wants the burden that she bears.
Yeah, I get that you like her. She did seem a bit special snowflake-y in the book to me, but I thought that was relatively well balanced out with the other characters- they all had some element or another that seemed over the top. I have a few friends who can't help but love her b/c "She's Alistair's mooooommmmm!" I was always jest kinda 'meh' about her, tbh. As far as her continued leadership in DAI goes, I remember the convo- and my thought was that if this was an actual business situation, and I was merging companies or something similar, I would've insisted that this matter be settled right away. Old leadership would be gone, because whether she is "de facto in charge" or not, the mages are still looking to her for guidance and leadership- and her leadership has already been proven to be inadequate to the point of negligence. I really want my Quizzie to be able to tell her right from the beginning that the rebel mage group is welcome to partner with the Inquisition, but she, personally, is not; or at least be able to express express her [Quizzie's] outrage at Fiona's actions, but sadly for me, the option doesn't exist.
@BlueGloves: Really appreciate you going to such lengths to educate me on the matter of socializing with people, but in your example of the bolded sentence you clinged to a wrong word.
You concentrated on the Who where I meant the acting word of the sentence to be How.
And my answer to that How is: Adorable.
Still offensive- still generalizing - and the rationalization continues. No one ethnic group or gender fits so nicely into any box that the phrase "We all know what [insert gender/ ethic group/religion here] are like." However, I really don't want to the derail the thread, so I'm going to climb down off my soap box now. Not sure why I said anything in the first place- it's not like I really expected anyone to change his or her mind and start to try and think about what effect his or her words might have. Unfortunately, gaming forums are a great place to see casual and unintended racism/sexism/classism/whatever else-ism in action, but a pretty fruitless place to try and change inappropriate behavior.
Shouldn't have even said anything in the first place. Sorry. Will try not to let it happen again.
Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but as to why I hate Fiona - cross-posted from a different forum:
To Grand Enchanter Fiona, leader of the Mage Rebellion:
What. The. ****.
I am not unsympathetic to the mage rebellion. I can see that the Circles are in drastic need of reform, and that mages have been cruelly mistreated. So don't try to write off my anger as 'you just hate mages'. I would have gladly allied with your rebellion if you had not displayed a practically criminal lack of foresight, responsibility and common bloody sense! Through your decisions you have done more damage to the cause of mage freedom than the entire templar army.
You chose to rebel against the Chantry at a time when magic and mages were more feared than they had been in generations. I can perhaps understand that you were afraid to let such an opportunity slip by, lest it never come again, but that doesn't excuse validating every fear the ordinary folk of Thedas has by allowing the most violent and irresponsible of the rebel mages to rampage all over the Hinterlands. The entire mage rebellion was built on the notion that mages are responsible enough to police themselves and guess what? "Washing your hands" of the apostates does not even come close to demonstrating responsibility. You don't get to shrug and say 'sorry, they're not my problem!' because either they ****** are or the templars were right all along and you can't be trusted to police yourselves. You failed in your responsibilities to control your people and to prove that mages could be trusted.
And then there's the way you failed in your duty of care to the Tranquil. They're helpless and utterly dependent on mage or templar protection. You dragged these poor guys out of the Circles, halfway across Thedas, got them embroiled in a war they've got no say in and can't defend themselves from, and then just let them get picked off by the Venatori, right under your nose. WHY WEREN'T YOU LOOKING OUT FOR THEM? They're as dependent on you as the children were but apparently dozens can go missing and get made into freaky skull-telescopes under your nose, without you noticing? You're either incompetent or you didn't give a ****, and I'm not sure which is worse.
Finally, there's the nail in the coffin. Congratulations on selling your people to Tevinter! Now every naysayer, every devout Andrastian who spouted fear and hatred against mages can feel perfectly justified. Just look at what happens when mages get their freedom! Maleficar rampage across the hinterlands, the Divine gets assassinated and they all go running to the magisters. You let your fear make your decisions for you. You got short-term survival (if you call indentured servitude survival) in exchange for the death of your cause for centuries to come. You made an enemy of the only rulers willing to give your cause sanctuary. And you showed the common people exactly what they can expect from free mages - chaos, destruction and the spread of Tevinter influence. Some people might have felt sorry for you before, but not anymore - they just want you locked back up in the Circles before you burn another country down.
*Slow Clap* Well done.
You are the worst possible leader these poor people could have had, and you failed and betrayed them with every decision you made. I don't agree with Vivienne much, but she was right when she said you should have retired and been given a garden. I'd bloody hang you if I had the option.
Sincerely,
The Inquisitor (or the hand driving her, at any rate.)
I like Fiona. It makes me sad that in my Templar runs she has to die.
Yes, she did stupid things but that doesn't stop me from liking her. People do stupid things. And I understand why she did it.
It's a bit like Isolde, everyone seems to hate her, and sure she made a mistake but an understandable one I think.
Annoying? Word I normally see used to describe her is forgettable as if you blink she is dead before you realize she was named.I hate her cause she was an annoying boss fight when her army of cronies rolled up on my doorstep
I have to say, thank you thread for giving me so many likes. I feel honored to have a post considered popular.
Annoying? Word I normally see used to describe her is forgettable as if you blink she is dead before you realize she was named.
I didn't even realize she was there and that I'd killed her until someone mentioned it here.
@Boost32: What would you have done? They were on the verge of destruction, they had no hope, except for this one man Alexius.
@BlueGloves: I'll just go once more: Fiona is known to be fickle. You can read the book to see yourself. Fiona is also a woman. These are truths.
One rough generalization I've heard all too often (but don't necessarily agree) is that women are fickle. I can't claim it to be true or false and neither can anyone. Stereotypes still do apply on most things in life.
See, I didn't claim anything. When I said we all know how women are just implies each of us has an opinion, a stereotype of you will, in our mind of women, as well as any gender/racial group. Everyone can think of that word in this situation and if it's offending they can only blame themselves for thinking about it.
Funny thing here is that if I make such a generalization on a group I belong to no one will call me names or stuff. Men are inconsiderate. This as a stereotype I can't confirm either, but I know it to be true on myself.
All in all, like you must have noticed, I can't stop talking once I start. I should have cut the first post after my own impressions of Fiona and leave it at that, but what I wrote after it doesn't change what I think of her.
But Fiona didn't make that decision, Bioware did.
The very fact that Fiona was wandering around Val Roy by herself completely carefree when we meet her suggests that the mages were feeling pretty confident about their chances of winning. So the entire desperation thing simply doesn't work. Especially since the time periods involved are about two weeks at most.
Except that wasn't the real Fiona. But don't let that stop your conjecture..
It has been discussed before, but Alexius's help weakened their position tactically with neglible benefit for them. So I fail to see how Alexius could be considered their last hope.@Boost32: What would you have done? They were on the verge of destruction, they had no hope, except for this one man Alexius.
It has been discussed before, but Alexius's help weakened their position tactically with neglible benefit for them. So I fail to see how Alexius could be considered their last hope.
Care to enlighten me on the other possible options? The way I was catered the cake was that they had either the Tevinter servitude or death to choose from.
@Boost32: What would you have done? They were on the verge of destruction, they had no hope, except for this one man Alexius.
Personally, assuming I'm starting after the conclave has been destroyed and the mages are trapped in Redcliff and the Hinterlands, what I would have done was.
a) Send patrols to hunt for the mages burning the Hinterlands to the ground, thus proving that the mages were willing to police themselves.
b ) Send a letter to Alistair and Anora reminding them that they granted the mages shelter and thus failure to provide protection reflects on their strength or lack thereof as rulers.
Afterwards, if the Templars truly did attack, I would order the mages to remain inside Redcliff and help defend it thus forcing Ferelden's army to fight my enemies for me rather than having it kicking me and my people out of the one shelter we have.
If all went well, negotiate for a more permanent settlement with Alistair and Anora.
That could possibly work, but in the case of A they would risk their own mages possibly reducing their strengths while fighting the rebel mages, also making it easier on the templars to rush Redcliffe.
B on the other hand might expose the villagers of Redcliffe to danger. Not sure if she would really think it a big loss.
I'm talking too much out of memory here. I really should play the Redcliffe stuff again to renew my memory. More importantly play the scene from templar side. Right now I don't know their end of the story at all.
One thing I am wondering about.
Just how big of a threat are the templars in a siege exactly? Would a military force whose role is to guard people in towers and to hunt down the occasional escapee have any experience in castle sieges ? Do they even have siege weapons at hand or crew trained in operating them?
I guess they could hire mercenaries to fix that, but we don't see any mercenaries working for the templars AFAIK.
"edited for better understanding
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