1363 réponses à ce sujet

[Boost32]

One thing I am wondering about.

Just how big of a threat are the templars in a siege exactly? Would a military force whose role is to guard people in towers and to hunt down the occasional escapee have any experience in castle sieges ? Do they even have siege weapons at hand or crew trained in operating them?

I guess they could hire mercenaries to fix that, but we don't see any mercenaries working for the templars AFAIK.

"edited for better understanding

Templars are one of the best militar forces in Thedas, even if they arent fighting magical users, they are one of the most killed warriors and trained since childhood, while they dont siege castle often, they fought in all Exalted Marches, so they have a historic of war.
And they dont have any siege weapons, they could only acquire one if they could create or someone give them one.

[Ranadiel Marius]

Care to enlighten me on the other possible options? The way I was catered the cake was that they had either the Tevinter servitude or death to choose from.

Their best option is to stay put and do everything possible to help the town. They had an agreement with the Fereldan monarch for sanctuary in the single most defensible location in southern Theda's. As long as they don't rock the boat, they couldn't get a better deal. If the Templars were ever stupid enough to attack, the castle could hold until a heavily pissed off monarch brought a full army to bear on the Templars likely destroying the order. If the Templars don't attack, then they can meld into normal life gaining freedom.

If they make the assessment that the Fereldan forces could not route the Templars, then they have no hope at a military victory and they must scatter as they can never get better conditions for their rebellion. Saving as many lives as possible is the key then and not moving as a group is their best bet for that.

If they don't believe they can trust the monarch....then I don't get why they are in Redcliffe, so I am assuming that hypothetical is off the table (but if it was on the table, leaving is the answer).

What they did instead was created a new eny out of an ally (Fereldan) and replaced them with an ally who is not able to get supply lines or capable of holding the territory they took simply from a logistics perspective. Further, while we don't know the size of Alexius's forces, they have to be significantly smaller than the Fereldan army would be due to said logistics. In addition Alexius's forces are presumably mages....which puts them at a disadvantage as TI mages don't know how to handle their magic being blocked (war table mission confirms this). So she is trading swordsmen in heavy armor for mages with no magic.

So in summary, Fiona's alliance decreases the size of her allied forces, increases the number of her enemies, and her new allies are less suited for fighting Templars than her old allies. In other words, sitting on her hands was not only a better option, it was in fact her BEST option.

[Lumix19]

Their best option is to stay put and do everything possible to help the town. They had an agreement with the Fereldan monarch for sanctuary in the single most defensible location in southern Theda's. As long as they don't rock the boat, they couldn't get a better deal. If the Templars were ever stupid enough to attack, the castle could hold until a heavily pissed off monarch brought a full army to bear on the Templars likely destroying the order. If the Templars don't attack, then they can meld into normal life gaining freedom.
If they make the assessment that the Fereldan forces could not route the Templars, then they have no hope at a military victory and they must scatter as they can never get better conditions for their rebellion. Saving as many lives as possible is the key then and not moving as a group is their best bet for that.
If they don't believe they can trust the monarch....then I don't get why they are in Redcliffe, so I am assuming that hypothetical is off the table (but if it was on the table, leaving is the answer).
What they did instead was created a new eny out of an ally (Fereldan) and replaced them with an ally who is not able to get supply lines or capable of holding the territory they took simply from a logistics perspective. Further, while we don't know the size of Alexius's forces, they have to be significantly smaller than the Fereldan army would be due to said logistics. In addition Alexius's forces are presumably mages....which puts them at a disadvantage as TI mages don't know how to handle their magic being blocked (war table mission confirms this). So she is trading swordsmen in heavy armor for mages with no magic.
So in summary, Fiona's alliance decreases the size of her allied forces, increases the number of her enemies, and her new allies are less suited for fighting Templars than her old allies. In other words, sitting on her hands was not only a better option, it was in fact her BEST option.

The Templars were already attacking according to Fiona. She mentions that the Templar attacks grew worse i.e. They were already happening. And your forgetting that the Venatori Alexius brought had warriors and archers in it as well as Mages. Besides Alexius caught them a mere 2 days after the Conclave which most people blame on magic, I get why Fiona would want to leave for the TI where the common people won't tear them to shreds.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The Templars were already attacking according to Fiona. She mentions that the Templar attacks grew worse i.e. They were already happening. And your forgetting that the Venatori Alexius brought had warriors and archers in it as well as Mages. Besides Alexius caught them a mere 2 days after the Conclave which most people blame on magic, I get why Fiona would want to leave for the TI where the common people won't tear them to shreds.

Did they have as many with them as the force the Crown had about a week away? It sounds like a long time, but only if you don't have a castle.

 

For that matter did the Venatori have enough archers and warriors to defend the wagon train that would have to go from Redcliffe to Orlais to Tevinter? (And I'm not sure what other countries they'd have to cross to get from Orlais to Tevinter?)

[MisterJB]

The Templars were already attacking according to Fiona. She mentions that the Templar attacks grew worse i.e. They were already happening. And your forgetting that the Venatori Alexius brought had warriors and archers in it as well as Mages. Besides Alexius caught them a mere 2 days after the Conclave which most people blame on magic, I get why Fiona would want to leave for the TI where the common people won't tear them to shreds.

We know the Templars had all been summoned to Theirinfall by Envy so, what attacks came would have to either subside or be conducted only the small force that refused to follow orders and was, in fact, being kept in check by the mages who broke away from the main group.

[Barquiel]

There is no evidence to suggest that the ferelden army would help the rebell mages. Anora/Alistair didn't do anything to stop the mess in the Hinterlands and that herbalist lady in Redcliffe tells us that she ran out of supplies treating people in the village who were injured from the attacks by the templars. Again...where was the ferelden army? All we know is that Alexius' forces gave the mages the edge they desperately needed (that's what that elderly mage in the tavern told us, the one who doesn't like Tevinter).

[actionhero112]

You mean little children who show signs of magical abilities? Rather cold there don´t you think?

 

Truth is, the circle system was faulty at the start. Mages should have been given a right to have a life outside circle. You start locking people up for just being born for certain type you will have rebellion in your hands.

Children who can easily become abominations. Look at Connor and the mess he made because his parents didn't send him to the circle. 

 

Fact is Mages are like live grenades. For the safety of everyone else they need a strict governing body to rule them, whether it be templars or fellow mages. 

[ZipZap2000]

I'm surprised people care enough about her to hate her. The whole 'time travel magic' thing killed off any interesting subplots for her and the mages for me. In a way it's almost like the mages are reduced to a cameo in this one. 

[MisterJB]

There is no evidence to suggest that the ferelden army would help the rebell mages. Anora/Alistair didn't do anything to stop the mess in the Hinterlands and that herbalist lady in Redcliff tells us that she ran out of supplies treating people in the village who were injured from the attacks by the templars. Again...where was the ferelden army? All we know is that Alexius' forces gave the mages the edge they desperately needed (that's what that elderly mage in the tavern told us, the one who doesn't like Tevinter).

Clearly on the way, considering it arrives precisely as the Inquisitor defeats Alexius.

And if the army doesn't help the rebels, the word of the monarchy will be seen as unreliable across Thedas. 

[megageeklizzy]

Blood mages and abominations can exist even within the Circle, as we learned all too well in Origins.  Mages deserve to be free, and they can pose a threat anywhere.  I hate to say it, but I think Tevinter has a better approach to mages than Orlais and Ferelden.  They don't approve of blood magic unless the subjects are willing, and the political issues Tevinter is hated for are an entirely separate problem.

[LOLandStuff]

I like how some blame Fereldan's monarch for not acting quickly, considering it takes several days of forced march to get there.

[MisterJB]

It was rather wide spread, you are kidding yourself if you think otherwise. People do not rebel against nice and friendly people.

Of course they do, weak kings have had rebellions on their hands numerous times.

[Barquiel]

It is supposed to be a 3 day forced march from Redcliffe to Denerim. I am pretty sure the templars (and the crazy Hinterland mages too ofc) terrorized the area longer than that.

[MisterJB]

It is supposed to be a 3 day forced march from Redcliffe to Denerim. I am pretty sure the templars (and the crazy Hinterland mages too ofc) terrorized the area longer than that.

It takes time to gather and prepare an army.

[LOLandStuff]

Fiona isn't leadership material.

[LOLandStuff]

It takes time to gather and prepare an army.

 

Nope. Apparently, you just get dressed and go.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Blood mages and abominations can exist even within the Circle, as we learned all too well in Origins.  Mages deserve to be free, and they can pose a threat anywhere.  I hate to say it, but I think Tevinter has a better approach to mages than Orlais and Ferelden.  They don't approve of blood magic unless the subjects are willing, and the political issues Tevinter is hated for are an entirely separate problem.

Unless the WoG on the Tevinter system has been flatly contradicted by in-game events (or further WoG), the Tevinter system is largely the same as the White system; the Templars having no magic of their own, Tranquility being more common, and the people in charge also being mages are the only major differences.

[Lumix19]

We know the Templars had all been summoned to Theirinfall by Envy so, what attacks came would have to either subside or be conducted only the small force that refused to follow orders and was, in fact, being kept in check by the mages who broke away from the main group.

But Envy recalled them a while after the Conclave. Alexius came 2 days after thanks to his time magic so during that time the Templars could have been attacking quite ferociously.

It takes time to gather and prepare an army.

This is true. Alexius had all the time in the world thanks to his magic which gave him quite the advantage. If the Fereldan army was meant to come and protect the mages following the Conclave's explosion (I imagine they are in Denerim or scattered because a ceasefire was meant to be in place) then it would have taken a day or so for news to reach Denerim and then a few more for them to gather, prepare and finally arrive at Redcliffe, during which time the Templars could have wiped out the mages. I assume in the unaltered timeline the Templar attacks were repelled by the mages and Redcliffe forces until they were recalled by Envy but Alexius altered it to arrive at the most opportune moment.

[Dean_the_Young]

But Envy recalled them a while after the Conclave. Alexius came 2 days after thanks to his time magic so during that time the Templars could have been attacking quite ferociously.

 

Except there's no indication of ferocious attacks by the main templar host. The outer walls aren't breached, the village isn't burned, and the people haven't even retreated into the castle. In fact, the main templar host is never even claimed to have been in the Hinterlands in the first place.

 

Immediate post-Conclave, the Templars are consistently indicated to be reeling from the decapitation strike (like everyone else) and then rallying to the White Spire. There is no long period of time in which the the Templars were still in the field engaging in the war: in the immediate aftermath of the Conclave explosion, when we first enter the Hinterlands, all the non-Renegade Templars are already well gone.

 

For the main Templars to attack Redcliffe after the Conclave, they would have needed to reverse their position and standing from before the Conclave- which was that they were entering negotiations, not actively fighting. And then, in lieu of a massive decapitation strike and disorganization and absence of orders, somehow come together for a major offensive in a matter of days before immediately dropping the effort to retreat because arbitrarily the absence of leadership is suddenly a problem to retreat for.

 

This is true. Alexius had all the time in the world thanks to his magic which gave him quite the advantage. If the Fereldan army was meant to come and protect the mages following the Conclave's explosion (I imagine they are in Denerim or scattered because a ceasefire was meant to be in place) then it would have taken a day or so for news to reach Denerim and then a few more for them to gather, prepare and finally arrive at Redcliffe, during which time the Templars could have wiped out the mages. I assume in the unaltered timeline the Templar attacks were repelled by the mages and Redcliffe forces until they were recalled by Envy but Alexius altered it to arrive at the most opportune moment.

 

 

Saying Alexius has all the time in the world is a misnomer- he can metagame (to an extent), but he can't gather resources that aren't already there. He also can't claim exceptional magical advantage against the Templars beause, well, Templars. Anti-magic.

[Imperius898]

Blood mages and abominations can exist even within the Circle, as we learned all too well in Origins.  Mages deserve to be free, and they can pose a threat anywhere.  I hate to say it, but I think Tevinter has a better approach to mages than Orlais and Ferelden.  They don't approve of blood magic unless the subjects are willing, and the political issues Tevinter is hated for are an entirely separate problem.

With regards to mage freedom, certainly. Most of the pro-Circle arguments I hear keep focusing on how dangerous mages are, but all ingame evidence suggests mercenary companies, multiple civil wars, Templars, bandits, darkspawn, etc., are equally as dangerous. 

 

This whole anti-apostate, anti-mage mindset is the result of hundreds of years of segregation between mages and the rest of the populace. Nothing short of complete freedom and full assimilation will change that mindset. 

[AshenEndymion]

This is true. Alexius had all the time in the world thanks to his magic which gave him quite the advantage. If the Fereldan army was meant to come and protect the mages following the Conclave's explosion (I imagine they are in Denerim or scattered because a ceasefire was meant to be in place) then it would have taken a day or so for news to reach Denerim and then a few more for them to gather, prepare and finally arrive at Redcliffe, during which time the Templars could have wiped out the mages. I assume in the unaltered timeline the Templar attacks were repelled by the mages and Redcliffe forces until they were recalled by Envy but Alexius altered it to arrive at the most opportune moment.

 

In the both the altered and unaltered timeline, there were no Templars coming to take out the mages in Redcliffe.

 

In the timeline in which Alexius shows up, some Venetori mages arrived almost immediately after the conclave explosion claiming to be southern Circle mages, claiming to have been attacked by Templars, and claiming that a large Templar force is moving toward Redcliffe...  None of the rebel mages attempted to verify any of the three claims(though, admittedly, it'd be rather hard to verify the first claim)

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Clearly on the way, considering it arrives precisely as the Inquisitor defeats Alexius.

And if the army doesn't help the rebels, the word of the monarchy will be seen as unreliable across Thedas. 

 

Not only that, losing the most important keep in Ferelden to the order would be a huge sign of weakness on Ferelden's part. Orlais and who-knows-else would smell blood in the water if it happened.

[LOLandStuff]

They were rather quick to kick out Teagan from his castle. As if he'd just sit it out and let the templars rampaging through Redcliff.

Alistair/Anora offered them a place to stay, they're in no way obligated to protect them as well.

[Ashagar]

With regards to mage freedom, certainly. Most of the pro-Circle arguments I hear keep focusing on how dangerous mages are, but all ingame evidence suggests mercenary companies, multiple civil wars, Templars, bandits, darkspawn, etc., are equally as dangerous. 

 

This whole anti-apostate, anti-mage mindset is the result of hundreds of years of segregation between mages and the rest of the populace. Nothing short of complete freedom and full assimilation will change that mindset. 

 

 

Actually it was vastly worse for mages before the chantry and the circles, after the withdraw of Tevinter from the south, anti-mage mobs were killing every mage or suspected mage they could get their hands to the point that the inquisition of old being one of the nicest groups as they might not kill you if you weren't up to no good. Also in game evidence does repeatedly show that for the most part the fears about blood magic are well founded given its ability to enslave minds and bind demons to people's will. 

 

Also abominations are indeed feared for good reason, the right of annulment came about in the first place because a mage got poessed, I think it was the one who went looking for a fear demon to prove a theory and slaughtered half a circle before they managed to kill it inspite of the mages and Templars at the circle, just picture something like that happening in the middle of a village or a city where you don't have experienced mages and anti-magic forces.

[Lumix19]

Except there's no indication of ferocious attacks by the main templar host. The outer walls aren't breached, the village isn't burned, and the people haven't even retreated into the castle. In fact, the main templar host is never even claimed to have been in the Hinterlands in the first place.
 
Immediate post-Conclave, the Templars are consistently indicated to be reeling from the decapitation strike (like everyone else) and then rallying to the White Spire. There is no long period of time in which the the Templars were still in the field engaging in the war: in the immediate aftermath of the Conclave explosion, when we first enter the Hinterlands, all the non-Renegade Templars are already well gone.
 
For the main Templars to attack Redcliffe after the Conclave, they would have needed to reverse their position and standing from before the Conclave- which was that they were entering negotiations, not actively fighting. And then, in lieu of a massive decapitation strike and disorganization and absence of orders, somehow come together for a major offensive in a matter of days before immediately dropping the effort to retreat because arbitrarily the absence of leadership is suddenly a problem to retreat for.

 

 
Saying Alexius has all the time in the world is a misnomer- he can metagame (to an extent), but he can't gather resources that aren't already there. He also can't claim exceptional magical advantage against the Templars beause, well, Templars. Anti-magic.

The Templars were not decapitated. Nor were the mages, they sent negotiators in their stead so the leadership was somewhat still intact. And I think you mean the Templars were rallying to Therinfal Redoubt not White Spire. I think it's possible Envy took over as Lucius and ordered attacks on the mages, supposedly to punish them for the Conclave explosion but more likely to drive them into the arms of the Venatori then later recalled them.

In the both the altered and unaltered timeline, there were no Templars coming to take out the mages in Redcliffe.
 
In the timeline in which Alexius shows up, some Venetori mages arrived almost immediately after the conclave explosion claiming to be southern Circle mages, claiming to have been attacked by Templars, and claiming that a large Templar force is moving toward Redcliffe...  None of the rebel mages attempted to verify any of the three claims(though, admittedly, it'd be rather hard to verify the first claim)

Fiona specifically states when you meet her that the Templar attacks grew worse so obviously they were already happening, that's what drove the desperation.