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[MisterJB]

Because the Divine herself had said they were allowed to meet for discussion, she didn't expect Lucius to betray the Chantry and try to massacre every mage there to keep his grip on them. If they did vote in favor then the Templars and the Chantry would have had to decide whether to try and force them to stay, enact some reforms or just let them go. Obviously the Templars decided to take it into their own hands.

Anyone could have seen it coming. Maybe not that they would storm the meeting but certainly that the Templars weren't going to just passively accept the mages voting away their entire responsibility. Wynne flat out told her such a vote was, for all intents and purposes, a declaration of war.

So, again, was Fiona's plan to just hope that the Divine was feeling amenable to their demands and would be able to rein in the Templars? With what, I wonder? Pleasantries?

 

"Ok, so yes, the mages have decided to vote to separate themselves form the Chantry which goes against everything we stand for and places millions of people in danger and effectively leaves the Templar Order without a job but I really think we should do it."

[MisterJB]

While I think of her washing her hands of those rebel mages as a bit irresponsible,

Considering this rebellion was started on the ground mages are perfectly capable of policing themselves without the aid of the Templars, washing your hands of mages tormenting the local population is less "a bit irresponsible" and more "betraying the very principles of the rebellion thus proving your enemy right".

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Well presumably Tevinter mages are quite powerful and trained for military scenarios unlike the rebel mages. Also I had actually assumed that Alexius said he would move them by sea, more difficult to take down if your primarily a land army.

Fiona and the mages at Redcliffe talk about being attacked by Templars too. The ones the Apostates are being attacked by are the ones who refused Envy's order to withdraw to Therinfal. But by then it's too late and Alexius has got them to sign themselves over.

Paragraph One: The first sentence is true, but somewhat counteracted by the fact that Tevinters have been shown to have no idea what to do when a Templar with actual Templar powers shuts off their powers. The second sentence is also probably true, but how do you get the mages to the boats without those wagon trains I was describing?

 

Paragraph Two: Fair, but the mages still had the castle; my understanding was that they were actually living in it until Alexius threw them out of it. As for it being too late once they've already signed the deal, that sort of thinking is a large part of why Fiona's detractors are doing so; the fact that she allows Alexius to renege on the deal without even attempting to find some way to withdraw their own consideration is kind of jarring.

[Lumix19]

Anyone could have seen it coming. Maybe not that they would storm the meeting but certainly that the Templars weren't going to just passively accept the mages voting away their entire responsibility. Wynne flat out told her such a vote was, for all intents and purposes, a declaration of war.
So, again, was Fiona's plan to just hope that the Divine was feeling amenable to their demands and would be able to rein in the Templars? With what, I wonder? Pleasantries?

"Ok, so yes, the mages have decided to vote to separate themselves form the Chantry which goes against everything we stand for and places millions of people in danger and effectively leaves the Templar Order without a job but I really think we should do it."

I'm not saying the Templars would have gone along with it with a song and a smile but if they had a problem with the way it was done they should have gone to the Divine for guidance. The Chantry could have decided whether to force the mages back to the Circles, negotiate for better reforms or to allow them to leave completely. Then whatever the Divine decided the Templars could have responded accordingly. They should not have begun attacking every mage in sight and declaring themselves above the Chantry, whilst secretly plotting for greater control over the Divine which is what Lambert's goal seems to have been all along.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I'm not saying the Templars would have gone along with it with a song and a smile but if they had a problem with the way it was done they should have gone to the Divine for guidance. The Chantry could have decided whether to force the mages back to the Circles, negotiate for better reforms or to allow them to leave completely. Then whatever the Divine decided the Templars could have responded accordingly.

And the mages should not have expected rationality from Lambert.

[Barquiel]

One might assume that's why Ferelden advised them to gather near what everyone describes as a supercastle. And if that's not enough I don't see why the Tevinter reinforcements would be. As for Alexius's proposed plan of getting out of there, fleeing the country might seem like a good idea on the surface, but if you think about it for two seconds you start wondering why the Templars you're pretty sure have the military wherewithal to take down a castle that's supposed to have been able to hold against Ogres and Emissaries can't destroy a few wagon trains.

 

Fleeing the country wouldn't be optimal, of course...but it was basically their only choice. The templars were not only present already in Ferelden, they were there entrenched and in large number. And they also have a long history of committing indiscriminate murder against mages irrespective of the guilt or innocence of the individual mages in question.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Fleeing the country wouldn't be optimal, of course...but it was basically their only choice. The templars were not only present already in Ferelden, they were there entrenched and in large number. And they also have a long history of committing indiscriminate murder against mages irrespective of the guilt or innocence of the individual mages in question.

I don't see how that's an answer for "they were advised to settle near a supercastle." In fact I think "they were advised to settle near a supercastle" answers that.

[Handsome Jack]

 

Someone won't be happy about this hate.

[MisterJB]

I'm not saying the Templars would have gone along with it with a song and a smile but if they had a problem with the way it was done they should have gone to the Divine for guidance. The Chantry could have decided whether to force the mages back to the Circles, negotiate for better reforms or to allow them to leave completely. Then whatever the Divine decided the Templars could have responded accordingly. They should not have begun attacking every mage in sight and declaring themselves above the Chantry, whilst secretly plotting for greater control over the Divine which is what Lambert's goal seems to have been all along.

This is not about what they should have done but rather, what was more likely what they would do.

This all began with people questioning Fiona's intelligence and her capability to lead and, considering she called for a vote for independence in the very heart of the Chantry while surrounded by thoousands of Templars and Chevaliers and soldiers and with nothing but a dozen First Enchanters and a couple hundred of mages in the White Spire  backing her and with naught a plan of what to do with the Divine decides to order the Templars to kill them or if they decide to do that regardless of the Divine's wishes, then one can easily see she is a moron.

[Lumix19]

Paragraph One: The first sentence is true, but somewhat counteracted by the fact that Tevinters have been shown to have no idea what to do when a Templar with actual Templar powers shuts off their powers. The second sentence is also probably true, but how do you get the mages to the boats without those wagon trains I was describing?

Paragraph Two: Fair, but the mages still had the castle; my understanding was that they were actually living in it until Alexius threw them out of it. As for it being too late once they've already signed the deal, that sort of thinking is a large part of why Fiona's detractors are doing so; the fact that she allows Alexius to renege on the deal without even attempting to find some way to withdraw their own consideration is kind of jarring.

Your first points are valid but when you're desperate you don't necessarily ask these questions. Perhaps you should but with the Divine dead and the attacks of the Templars the Tevinter deal seemed good at the time. Perhaps the Arl and Alexius even agreed to work together to defend the mages and that's why Fiona thought they would be well defended. And the transport is an issue but presumably they planned to stay in Redcliffe until the Templars stopped their attacks and then leave quickly and quietly.

Your second points are also valid. However I'm unsure which incident of Alexius betraying the deal you are referring to. If you mean when Alexius first took over Redcliffe then I'm not surprised by Fiona's inaction. It's like Barris and the fishy red lyrium, just because you're suspicious doesn't necessarily mean you enact a mutiny. If you mean when Alexius claimed everyone would go into the military then I assume Fiona had planned for the Inquisition to be her way of withdrawing.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Your first points are valid but when you're desperate you don't necessarily ask these questions. Perhaps you should but with the Divine dead and the attacks of the Templars the Tevinter deal seemed good at the time. Perhaps the Arl and Alexius even agreed to work together to defend the mages and that's why Fiona thought they would be well defended. And the transport is an issue but presumably they planned to stay in Redcliffe until the Templars stopped their attacks and then leave quickly and quietly.

Your second points are also valid. However I'm unsure which incident of Alexius betraying the deal you are referring to. If you mean when Alexius first took over Redcliffe then I'm not surprised by Fiona's inaction. It's like Barris and the fishy red lyrium, just because you're suspicious doesn't necessarily mean you enact a mutiny. If you mean when Alexius claimed everyone would go into the military then I assume Fiona had planned for the Inquisition to be her way of withdrawing.

Consider this: If Fiona left after Alexius overthrew Teagan, that would mean that Fiona and her mages wouldn't have any more allies left. After Teagan's overthrow, the situation became either stay with us and we'll protect you or leave and face the wrath of everyone else without our protection. Heck, after Alexius gives up this is exactly what happens when the ruler of Ferelden exiles the mages. If I was an evil, I'd do something similar to ensure I kept my slaves.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

If you mean when Alexius claimed everyone would go into the military then I assume Fiona had planned for the Inquisition to be her way of withdrawing.

Most of those who detract from Fiona on those grounds would probably do so less fervently if she had shown any signs of acting on or even having such plans. If she'd sent a trusted mage or snuck away from Alexius, for instance. She might even avoid the worst of it if she'd said she had such plans when asked about it later. But she didn't. Dorian saved her, and I don't have any trouble seeing why people think she personally didn't deserve it.

 

Consider this: If Fiona left after Alexius overthrew Teagan, that would mean that Fiona and her mages wouldn't have any more allies left. After Teagan's overthrow, the situation became either stay with us and we'll protect you or leave and face the wrath of everyone else without our protection. Heck, after Alexius gives up this is exactly what happens when the ruler of Ferelden exiles the mages. If I was an evil, I'd do something similar to ensure I kept my slaves.

If I was that slave I'd try to find some way out. If Fiona really was planning to go to the Inquisition when she learns of them despite Alexius's meddling (which I don't think we have any reason to believe) that qualifies. Alternatively, if she'd snuck a mage out of Redcliffe and had them approach Ferelden's lines (Connor is an obvious choice) they could have tried to undo the trap by frankly acknowledging their mistakes (that Fiona never does this is another problem) and expressing a firm desire to mend them by any means possible.

[Lumix19]

This is not about what they should have done but rather, what was more likely what they would do.
This all began with people questioning Fiona's intelligence and her capability to lead and, considering she called for a vote for independence in the very heart of the Chantry while surrounded by thoousands of Templars and Chevaliers and soldiers and with nothing but a dozen First Enchanters and a couple hundred of mages in the White Spire backing her and with naught a plan of what to do with the Divine decides to order the Templars to kill them or if they decide to do that regardless of the Divine's wishes, then one can easily see she is a moron.

This is true but don't you think that the Divine allowing them to host the meeting at all was an indicator that perhaps the she was more moderate and wouldn't just order a massacre? Besides there was never going to be a right moment for a vote in that case. There were always going to be dozens of Templars around when the mages meet. That meeting was her one chance and Fiona took it.

[thesuperdarkone2]

This is true but don't you think that the Divine allowing them to host the meeting at all was an indicator that perhaps the she was more moderate and wouldn't just order a massacre? Besides there was never going to be a right moment for a vote in that case. There were always going to be dozens of Templars around when the mages meet. That meeting was her one chance and Fiona took it.

You should remember that the vote only reached 50/50 AFTER Lambert and the templars tried to kill and imprison all of them. Had the vote occurred normally, despite the harsher restrictions, the mages wouldn't have voted for independence. There's only so much kicking you can do to the hornet's nest before you get stung.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

This is true but don't you think that the Divine allowing them to host the meeting at all was an indicator that perhaps the she was more moderate and wouldn't just order a massacre? Besides there was never going to be a right moment for a vote in that case. There were always going to be dozens of Templars around when the mages meet. That meeting was her one chance and Fiona took it.

The right moment is when both the Divine and the Lord-Seeker are moderate enough not to order a massacre, and the First Enchanters and Grand Enchanter are all canny enough leaders to properly leverage it and to keep the mages united despite it. Almost none of that was true here. I don't know when the right time for this was (if there was ever going to be one under those standards) but it wasn't when Fiona was in charge and probably couldn't have happened under her leadership.

[Lumix19]

Most of those who detract from Fiona on those grounds would probably do so less fervently if she had shown any signs of acting on or even having such plans. If she'd sent a trusted mage or snuck away from Alexius, for instance. She might even avoid the worst of it if she'd said she had such plans when asked about it later. But she didn't. Dorian saved her, and I don't have any trouble seeing why people think she personally didn't deserve it.

If I was that slave I'd try to find some way out. If Fiona really was planning to go to the Inquisition when she learns of them despite Alexius's meddling (which I don't think we have any reason to believe) that qualifies. Alternatively, if she'd snuck a mage out of Redcliffe and had them approach Ferelden's lines (Connor is an obvious choice) they could have tried to undo the trap by frankly acknowledging their mistakes (that Fiona never does this is another problem) and expressing a firm desire to mend them by any means possible.

Wouldn't that have been rather unnecessary? I mean the Inquisition is there for the mages. When they take the mages back to Haven just ask to not return to Alexius. No need to put yourself at risk by trying to sneak around the Venatori.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Wouldn't that have been rather unnecessary? I mean the Inquisition is there for the mages. When they take the mages back to Haven just ask to not return to Alexius. No need to put yourself at risk by trying to sneak around the Venatori.

No, it would not have been. It has already been shown that Alexius is not trustworthy enough to productively negotiate with.

[Lumix19]

You should remember that the vote only reached 50/50 AFTER Lambert and the templars tried to kill and imprison all of them. Had the vote occurred normally, despite the harsher restrictions, the mages wouldn't have voted for independence. There's only so much kicking you can do to the hornet's nest before you get stung.

Yes this is true. If Lambert hadn't overreacted so badly just at the idea of them voting things wouldn't have gone the way they did.

[Lumix19]

No, it would not have been. It has already been shown that Alexius is not trustworthy enough to productively negotiate with.

I doubt Fiona believed Alexius was just going to deny the Inquisition the mages they needed with the Breach still open.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Yes this is true. If Lambert hadn't overreacted so badly just at the idea of them voting things wouldn't have gone the way they did.

Nobody's arguing that Lambert's actions were sane. What everyone's arguing is that they were predictable, and that if Fiona didn't see them coming she damn well should have.

 

I doubt Fiona believed Alexius was just going to deny the Inquisition the mages they needed with the Breach still open.

How does that help the mages Alexius judges that they don't need?

[Lumix19]

Nobody's arguing that Lambert's actions were sane. What everyone's arguing is that they were predictable, and that if Fiona didn't see them coming she damn well should have.

How does that help the mages Alexius judges that they don't need?

I dunno. Lambert's pretty much an unknown right? I mean he's Lord Seeker so I doubt anybody but Seekers and Templars have much interaction with him. And I don't tend to assume people are irrational until they've actually showed that they are.

The mages can just request that the Inquisition work with them on a longer term basis and rescue the rest of the mages from Alexius. Same result as sending them a secret messenger in Redcliffe without all the unnecessary secrecy.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I dunno. Lambert's pretty much an unknown right? I mean he's Lord Seeker so I doubt anybody but Seekers and Templars have much interaction with him. And I don't tend to assume people are irrational until they've actually showed that they are.

The mages can just request that the Inquisition work with them on a longer term basis and rescue the rest of the mages from Alexius. Same result as sending them a secret messenger in Redcliffe without all the unnecessary secrecy.

She'd spent the entire book interacting with Lambert, and watching as Lambert argues with the Divine and attempts to keep control over the mages in cartoonishly hamfisted ways. That should have been enough to guess that he wasn't sympathetic to them.

 

And Alexius wasn't going to see what Fiona's plan was? And was going to let them shift the terms of an agreement until she gets everything she wants and he gets nothing? After teaching her that trick?

[MisterJB]

This is true but don't you think that the Divine allowing them to host the meeting at all was an indicator that perhaps the she was more moderate and wouldn't just order a massacre? Besides there was never going to be a right moment for a vote in that case. There were always going to be dozens of Templars around when the mages meet. That meeting was her one chance and Fiona took it.

In which case, the Templars simply take it upon themselves to defeat them regardless of the Divine's wish.

 

Perhaps there shouldn't have been a vote. Considering that the freedom of mages is something that affects more than mages, such a vote should require the input of Templars, priests and secular authority.

[Lumix19]

She'd spent the entire book interacting with Lambert, and watching as Lambert argues with the Divine and attempts to keep control over the mages in cartoonishly hamfisted ways. That should have been enough to guess that he wasn't sympathetic to them.

And Alexius wasn't going to see what Fiona's plan was? And was going to let them shift the terms of an agreement until she gets everything she wants and he gets nothing? After teaching her that trick?

Yes but being cartoonist and outright saying "screw the Chantry, we know what we're doing" are pretty different. I don't think anyone actually expected the Templars to defy the Chantry so outright.

Well I'm sure Alexius would have sent Tevinter agents with her but within Haven at least it would be the Inquisition in control and not Alexius. Fiona trying to secretly send an agent would have mean playing her hand too early.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Yes but being cartoonist and outright saying "screw the Chantry, we know what we're doing" are pretty different. I don't think anyone actually expected the Templars to defy the Chantry so outright.

Well I'm sure Alexius would have sent Tevinter agents with her but within Haven at least it would be the Inquisition in control and not Alexius. Fiona trying to secretly send an agent would have mean playing her hand too early.

Given how obsessed with control Lambert was I'm not so sure they shouldn't have.

 

And would the whole bunch have been at Haven? If Alexius gave the Inquisitor any mages, he would have made sure to keep more than Fiona was willing to lose as collateral. Probably even Fiona herself. Alexius would have known that she was trying to shake his control, because anyone with any sense would do so.