Guest_Roly Voly_*
2º) She tries to kill the Inquisitor and set fire to the world if you don´t side with the mages(Barris, the templar counterpart, dies fighting like a lion against the red templars)
That's not really fair as her counterpart is Knight Captain Denan, not Ser Barris. Ser Barris doesn't really have a mage equivalent that I can think of.
Coryspit > Calpernia > Fiona
Coryspit > Samson > Knight Captain Denam
That's how it plays out.
If you select the In Hushed Whisper in the keep, ser barris tile change to "killed while fighting against the red templars".Isn't it said that the killing Templars occurred because the inquisitor arrived while the real plan was to sneakily corrupt the Templars wih red lyrium.
No inquisitor likely means he Templars are secretly corrupted. For all you know Barris died from red lyrium poisoning
Oh! If only, "We would be honored to have you fight as allies at the Inquisition's side, not you though, you stupid lady, you get the gallows".
All Companions Greatly Approve.
Blackwall: Everyone deserves a second chance. Everyone doesn't include the Grand Enchanter by the way.
Cassandra: May the Maker have mercy on you. I certainly don't.
Iron Bull: People like her are why we have Saarebas.
Sera: Haha!
Varric: Not as bad as Anders, but that's not saying much.
Vivienne: Finally, a place where she can't make us all look bad.
Solas: Inquisitor there's no reason to be so... No, actually never mind, she deserves it.
Guest_Roly Voly_*
Isn't it said that the killing Templars occurred because the inquisitor arrived while the real plan was to sneakily corrupt the Templars wih red lyrium.
No inquisitor likely means he Templars are secretly corrupted. For all you know Barris died from red lyrium poisoning
All I was getting at was that Fiona's counterpart as far as the attack on Haven is concerned is not Ser Barris, but rather Denam. Barris has, as you state, no in-game presence if you side with the mages. Well, beyond standing there slack-jawed at Val Royaeiouandsometimesyx when the cleric is sucker punched.
If you select the In Hushed Whisper in the keep, ser barris tile change to "killed while fighting against the red templars".
This.
EDIT: https://www.youtube....h?v=e_1j-fWU43c
min 13:28
That's not really fair as her counterpart is Knight Captain Denan, not Ser Barris. Ser Barris doesn't really have a mage equivalent that I can think of.
Coryspit > Calpernia > Fiona
Coryspit > Samson > Knight Captain Denam
That's how it plays out.
You are right, Barris is a hero, on the other hand, Fiona is just an idiot. But seriously, I think that Fiona is a mixed of Barris and Denam depending if you side with mages or templars. It´s a shame we can´t judge her.
I can't call Barris a hero when he stayed with the templars for as long as he did.
I can't call Barris a hero when he stayed with the templars for as long as he did.
Because every Templar is nothing more than a religious zealot, power abusive, corrupt authority figure and fascist. While mages is like an embodiment of perfection and goodness, they never ever abuse their power when given a chance, they never resort to blood magic or demon summoning, and they never allowed themselves to be possessed by demons nor betray people's trust before. Just look at Fiona! She's a fine example of all free mages, and she never betrays Ferelden's monarch's trust...oh wait. 
Must it all be black & white to you? The world is quite gray, full of shades and colors, and people are not that simple. Clearly there are bad people on every side.
Because every Templar is nothing more than a religious zealot, power abusive, corrupt authority figure and fascist. While mages is like an embodiment of perfection and goodness, they never ever abuse their power when given a chance, they never resort to blood magic or demon summoning, and they never allowed themselves to be possessed by demons nor betray people's trust before. Just look at Fiona! She's a fine example of all free mages, and she never betrays Ferelden's monarch's trust...oh wait.
Must it all be black & white to you? The world is quite gray, full of shades and colors, and people are not that simple. Clearly there are bad people on every side.
Amusingly, your post's sarcasm itself made highly black/white implications. Also, nothing that I said had anything to do with mages; as all of them simply possess a biological condition that has nothing to do with morality, they naturally run the gamut of the moral spectrum.
Fascism doesn't exist in Thedas, but the Templar Order has (or had, as it's gone in most playthroughs) several similar aspects, and all templars are people who are, at least for the present time, fine with serving that. I don't think that a genuinely good person would remain with the Templar Order, though we do see several good ex-templars. This is exacerbated by the templars leaving the Chantry and making it clear that their only purpose is to hunt, kill, and possibly imprison mages.
Amusingly, your post's sarcasm itself made highly black/white implications. Also, nothing that I said had anything to do with mages; as all of them simply possess a biological condition that has nothing to do with morality, they naturally run the gamut of the moral spectrum.
Fascism doesn't exist in Thedas, but the Templar Order has (or had, as it's gone in most playthroughs) several similar aspects, and all templars are people who are, at least for the present time, fine with serving that. I don't think that a genuinely good person would remain with the Templar Order, though we do see several good ex-templars. This is exacerbated by the templars leaving the Chantry and making it clear that their only purpose is to hunt, kill, and possibly imprison mages.
Oh? I take it you didn't get the satire because you still look through rose colored glasses when it comes to any subject about mages. As if most of your post on every thread about Mage vs Templar itself wasn't highly black/white implications. You're the one who assumes that every templars is evil, yet I'm the one with fault here? Like I said, there are good people and bad people on every side. Yet mages can fall on the dark path like any normal person, being born with different biological condition doesn't dictate that one is good nor evil. Everyone can fall on dark path.
But the system that share similarity or allowed one to to abuse their power does exist in Thedas. Well, before you accuse me of supporting templars caging mages like an animal. You should know that there is a very good reason why mages need proper education or to be under surveillance in the first place. Let's not forgot the very fact that mages are risk being possessed by demon, and with all the power at their fingertip they can cause destruction more effective than normal people. I don't think the Circle is perfect place, and there are templars who abuse their power. Of course, those templars deserve harsh punishment, as mages who use magic to hurt the innocent.
I don't think that a genuinely good person would betray their benefactor who save this good person's life, and offer this good person a sanctuary, and I don't think that a genuinely good person would go mad with the freedom they just earn to cause large scale of destruction on the Hinterlands that hurt the innocent people most. We do see several good templars, ex-templars, circle mages, and apostates throughout course of three games. The world is full of shades and colors don't you think? The same thing also come from some mages who escaping the Circle, and some mages who spent their lives as apostate, some who would abuse their gift to hurt, kill the innocent for amusement, or sacrifice the innocent to increase their power. One of the most damnable thing is done by certain mage who's willing to sacrifice the innocent to serve his own agenda, and he doesn't care if he'd just dragged many mages who just want to live their lives into his war.
Amusingly, your post's sarcasm itself made highly black/white implications. Also, nothing that I said had anything to do with mages; as all of them simply possess a biological condition that has nothing to do with morality, they naturally run the gamut of the moral spectrum.
Fascism doesn't exist in Thedas, but the Templar Order has (or had, as it's gone in most playthroughs) several similar aspects, and all templars are people who are, at least for the present time, fine with serving that. I don't think that a genuinely good person would remain with the Templar Order, though we do see several good ex-templars. This is exacerbated by the templars leaving the Chantry and making it clear that their only purpose is to hunt, kill, and possibly imprison mages.
Templars are a bunch of thugs, but mages are not better.
See what both of them did in the Hinterlands, or how cheerfully mages joined the Venatori and tried to destroy all southern Thedas.
Of course there are exceptions in both sides.
Amusingly, your post's sarcasm itself made highly black/white implications. Also, nothing that I said had anything to do with mages; as all of them simply possess a biological condition that has nothing to do with morality, they naturally run the gamut of the moral spectrum.
Fascism doesn't exist in Thedas, but the Templar Order has (or had, as it's gone in most playthroughs) several similar aspects, and all templars are people who are, at least for the present time, fine with serving that. I don't think that a genuinely good person would remain with the Templar Order, though we do see several good ex-templars. This is exacerbated by the templars leaving the Chantry and making it clear that their only purpose is to hunt, kill, and possibly imprison mages.
I don't want to get involved in the argument between you too, but I do feel compelled to point out Cullen is probably the best example of a good Templar, and he chose to leave.
I don't want to get involved in the argument between you too, but I do feel compelled to point out Cullen is probably the best example of a good Templar, and he chose to leave.
The difference between Cullen and Barris is that Cullen has become disillusioned with the Order/Chantry after Meredith/Kirkwall and wants a fresh start (though he doesn't hate the order and still shows concern for their fate), Barris on the other hand still believes in the Templars and wants to see them redeemed. He is meant to exemplify what the Templar order is supposed be, without the corruption and abuse of power- the champions of the just. His war-table missions illustrate this. Whether or not he could be successful (with Cas as divine) is of course up to interpretation...
I can't call Barris a hero when he stayed with the templars for as long as he did.
If he dies standing against the minions of Corypheus, trying to uphold the ideals of what a Templar should be, rather than the corrupted and abusive shadow that they became, then yeah I'd call him a hero.
The difference between Cullen and Barris is that Cullen has become disillusioned with the Order/Chantry after Meredith/Kirkwall and wants a fresh start (though he doesn't hate the order and still shows concern for their fate), Barris on the other hand still believes in the Templars and wants to see them redeemed. He is meant to exemplify what the Templar order is supposed be, without the corruption and abuse of power- the champions of the just. His war-table missions illustrate this. Whether or not he could be successful (with Cas as divine) is of course up to interpretation...
Xilizhra's argument is that what the Templar order is supposed to be, without Meredith or Alrik, is still evil. I'm not sure I agree, and I'm not sure it's been demonstrated that anything better for the population as a whole is possible (unless the free mages enforce conditions among their own similar to what the Templars had, minus the rapists) but that's what Xilizhra is arguing.
Templars are a bunch of thugs, but mages are not better.
See what both of them did in the Hinterlands, or how cheerfully mages joined the Venatori and tried to destroy all southern Thedas.
Of course there are exceptions in both sides.
This seems to be an increasingly common argument on the forum. To me, it seems a little bizarre.
I don't necessarily assume Templars are prejudiced thugs, and in many way they're subjugated by the chantry's circle system just as Mages are. Over generalizing seems altogether likely to lead to problems.
But Mages are born with their power, it's inherent in them whether they like it or not. How can these two categories be rationalized as evenly comparable?
More importantly, the mages you're referencing wreaking havoc in the Hinterlands are spoken in universe as being the exception to the Mages in general. The rebels have disowned them for their actions. And your mention of the rebels "cheerfully" joining the Venatori suggests you might not have really listened to the fretting and protests of the the mages in Redcliffe.
Claiming that the examples of Mages and Templars with positive characterization are just exceptions to a general rule is false logic. They've all always been presented as people, with characteristics ranging the gamut.
Xilizhra's argument is that what the Templar order is supposed to be, without Meredith or Alrik, is still evil. I'm not sure I agree, and I'm not sure it's been demonstrated that anything better for the population as a whole is possible (unless the free mages enforce conditions among their own similar to what the Templars had, minus the rapists) but that's what Xilizhra is arguing.
Yep I get that. 
I'm not sure I agree either but everyone is entitled to their opinion. I do however think that if Templars continue, they need to be taken out of the Circles so that they are no longer jailers/hanging around mages all day - something which Cas does in her divine ending.
The point though was about Cullen being better because he left, but his reasons for leaving were more personal and complex. He didn't leave because he thought the order was evil. He basically says that the order had nothing further to offer him or he to it and he wanted to get back control of his own life. If anything it is the Chantry that he is angry at. We don't know why Barris didn't leave, loyalty to comrades, strong faith, maybe he believed things could still get better? -clearly he was having doubts since he sent that message to Cullen. When he sees how far the corruption spread he is both horrified and ashamed. Ultimately both men want to help people, they simply do it from different positions/through different means...
This seems to be an increasingly common argument on the forum. To me, it seems a little bizarre.
I don't necessarily assume Templars are prejudiced thugs, and in many way they're subjugated by the chantry's circle system just as Mages are. Over generalizing seems altogether likely to lead to problems.
But Mages are born with their power, it's inherent in them whether they like it or not. How can these two categories be rationalized as evenly comparable?
More importantly, the mages you're referencing wreaking havoc in the Hinterlands are spoken in universe as being the exception to the Mages in general. The rebels have disowned them for their actions. And your mention of the rebels "cheerfully" joining the Venatori suggests you might not have really listened to the fretting and protests of the the mages in Redcliffe.
Claiming that the examples of Mages and Templars with positive characterization are just exceptions to a general rule is false logic. They've all always been presented as people, with characteristics ranging the gamut.
Neither the mages nor the templars did anything to stop those "rebels" in the Hinterlands. And of course there was mages against the Alliance with the Venatori, but what happened to them? We can assume they are all dead if you don´t side with the mages(same with Barris if you don´t side with the templars).
And as an explanation, when I talk about templars and mages, I´m refering to their leaders, and I think all of them acted selfighly without thinking of anyone but themselves.
Yep I get that.
The point though was about Cullen being better because he left, but his reasons for leaving were more personal and complex. He didn't leave because he thought the order was evil. He basically says that the order had nothing further to offer him or he to it and he wanted to get back control of his own life. If anything it is the Chantry that he is angry at. We don't know why Barris didn't leave, loyalty to comrades, strong faith, maybe he believed things could still get better? -clearly he was having doubts since he sent that message to Cullen. When he sees how far the corruption spread he is both horrified and ashamed. Ultimately both men want to help people, they simply do it from different positions/through different means...
I think this is a very good point, and it also points to the real culprit- the Chantry.
I'm a staunch pro-freedom for mages person, but I also know that the templars are, at worst (in theory) a necessary evil. There will always be douchebags who seek to bend others to their wills, and there will always be people willing to work for them, and mages can be any of those people. They can also be redeemers, and perfectly decent humans in their own right. Templars are the exact same. They're effectively a military force against the possibility of mage corruption and that is very needed, and it seems plenty of mages agree- they just don't want to be jailed for it.
Xilizhra's argument is that what the Templar order is supposed to be, without Meredith or Alrik, is still evil. I'm not sure I agree, and I'm not sure it's been demonstrated that anything better for the population as a whole is possible (unless the free mages enforce conditions among their own similar to what the Templars had, minus the rapists) but that's what Xilizhra is arguing.
Any organization with power over another group is inherently corruptible. We have seen with Tevinter that mages are capable of just as much atrocity as Templars if given power.
The Templar Order, as an organization, has noble values and goals. Whether it is a workable solution as guardians of and from magic is an open question. But Templars are not inherently corrupt merely for being a member of the organization.
The whole religiousness of the order could use some tweaking though.
or abandonment.
The whole religiousness of the order could use some tweaking though.
or abandonment.
Oh? I take it you didn't get the satire because you still look through rose colored glasses when it comes to any subject about mages. As if most of your post on every thread about Mage vs Templar itself wasn't highly black/white implications. You're the one who assumes that every templars is evil, yet I'm the one with fault here? Like I said, there are good people and bad people on every side. Yet mages can fall on the dark path like any normal person, being born with different biological condition doesn't dictate that one is good nor evil. Everyone can fall on dark path.
Yes indeed. I'm not talking about mages. I'm talking about templars.
But the system that share similarity or allowed one to to abuse their power does exist in Thedas. Well, before you accuse me of supporting templars caging mages like an animal. You should know that there is a very good reason why mages need proper education or to be under surveillance in the first place. Let's not forgot the very fact that mages are risk being possessed by demon, and with all the power at their fingertip they can cause destruction more effective than normal people. I don't think the Circle is perfect place, and there are templars who abuse their power. Of course, those templars deserve harsh punishment, as mages who use magic to hurt the innocent.
And absolutely none of that requires the oversight of maniacs with swords and the Maker on their side.
I don't think that a genuinely good person would betray their benefactor who save this good person's life, and offer this good person a sanctuary, and I don't think that a genuinely good person would go mad with the freedom they just earn to cause large scale of destruction on the Hinterlands that hurt the innocent people most. We do see several good templars, ex-templars, circle mages, and apostates throughout course of three games. The world is full of shades and colors don't you think? The same thing also come from some mages who escaping the Circle, and some mages who spent their lives as apostate, some who would abuse their gift to hurt, kill the innocent for amusement, or sacrifice the innocent to increase their power. One of the most damnable thing is done by certain mage who's willing to sacrifice the innocent to serve his own agenda, and he doesn't care if he'd just dragged many mages who just want to live their lives into his war.
I wouldn't say that what Fiona did was a betrayal; since the Venatori did kick out Teagan before making a deal with Fiona, it's not like she had all that much choice for protection. I would also not say that we see good templars who haven't left the Order.
If he dies standing against the minions of Corypheus, trying to uphold the ideals of what a Templar should be, rather than the corrupted and abusive shadow that they became, then yeah I'd call him a hero.
If he wanted to be what templars should be, he should have abandoned an order whose attempts to avoid corruption were pretty much drowned at the order's birth, and joined the Inquisition.
Any organization with power over another group is inherently corruptible. We have seen with Tevinter that mages are capable of just as much atrocity as Templars if given power.
The Templar Order, as an organization, has noble values and goals. Whether it is a workable solution as guardians of and from magic is an open question. But Templars are not inherently corrupt merely for being a member of the organization.
It had some noble goals. But other goals were ignoble, and they were too woven into the organization's fabric for it to have been fixed, in my opinion. Samson gave the Order deliverance and ultimately enabled a merciful death for it.
Nevermind that she did nothing to defend Teagan, her alliance with a hostile foreign power who annexed a territory of her host nation was a betrayal.I wouldn't say that what Fiona did was a betrayal; since the Venatori did kick out Teagan before making a deal with Fiona, it's not like she had all that much choice for protection. I would also not say that we see good templars who haven't left the Order.
Nevermind that she did nothing to defend Teagan, her alliance with a hostile foreign power who annexed a territory of her host nation was a betrayal.
Not just betrayal, what she did was treason, high treason, in fact. And we all know what the punishment for treason in Medieval times was, don't we?
Retour en haut