Hardly. Tevinter's issues have nothing to do with it being run by mages; it's oppression and selective law enforcement, like it is pretty much everywhere else.
remind me, who instigates and perpetuates the oppression and is responsible for passing the laws and enforcing them?
The fact that normal templars can give such a shock to the Tevinter Magisters is proof of how much they need them
remind me, who instigates and perpetuates the oppression and is responsible for passing the laws and enforcing them?
The fact that normal templars can give such a shock to the Tevinter Magisters is proof of how much they need them
The templars themselves stop using lyrium if they have Cullen's example, which seems to be proof of how terrible it is.
not sayings its a glamorous lifestyle and I certainly wouldn't force anyone to become an addict, but they serve a good purposeThe templars themselves stop using lyrium if they have Cullen's example, which seems to be proof of how terrible it is.
not sayings its a glamorous lifestyle and I certainly wouldn't force anyone to become an addict, but they serve a good purpose
Mooks with swords and antimagic abilities in general might serve a good purpose, but none of the religious or authoritative parts are necessary.
Well once again there's no existing organization outside the wardens that can provide for such an order besides the Chantry, religious fanaticism and zealousness are certainly going to come with the territory and it'd be hard to convince someone who isn't religious to dedicate their life to a drug.Mooks with swords and antimagic abilities in general might serve a good purpose, but none of the religious or authoritative parts are necessary.
Well once again there's no existing organization outside the wardens that can provide for such an order besides the Chantry, religious fanaticism and zealousness are certainly going to come with the territory and it'd be hard to convince someone who isn't religious to dedicate their life to a drug.
Perhaps then the Seekers should be relied upon more since they avoid the lyrium issue, but they clearly aren't numerous enough and they have even worse oversight.
There is now: the Inquisition. It can help the College of Enchanters set things up.
I'm not willing to commit to that until we know for certain the Inquisition will be sticking around for a longtime. Even if it does, I don't think forcing the mages to be part of an overtly militaristic order is much of an improvement. And if they are only setting it up and not governing then the College will inevitably splinter or disintegrate due to its size and being so widespread.There is now: the Inquisition. It can help the College of Enchanters set things up.
I'm not willing to commit to that until we know for certain the Inquisition will be sticking around for a longtime. Even if it does, I don't think forcing the mages to be part of an overtly militaristic order is much of an improvement. And if they are only setting it up and not governing then the College will inevitably splinter or disintegrate due to its size and being so widespread.
I hardly think it's inevitable.
Hardly. Tevinter's issues have nothing to do with it being run by mages; it's oppression and selective law enforcement, like it is pretty much everywhere else.
Apart from the fact Dorian himself says blood magic and associated unpleasantness is a direct result of the mage's struggle for power within Tevinter? The oppression doesn't conjure itself from thin air. It's like that because people with nigh on absolute power are allowed to rule unchecked, and we know what absolute power does to anyone. Mages are humans, with all the ugly baggage that can easily come with it, and possibly exacerbated by growing in a culture that tells you that you're naturally, nay, engineered to be superior to all the mundane plebs, to say nothing of the slaves you kill to make a show for your guests.
That's not saying Kirkwall-esque Circles are the solution, before anyone pulls that strawman out, but ''freedom for all mages forever'' sounds nice and cool until you look north. There isn't much indication that people in the South are generally much better than in Tevinter, so I'm really not sure the South can't turn like Tevinter eventually. There needs to be an oversight, not the Orwellian one that was before but an oversight still.
I mean, with those same arguments, one might easily say that the Templar's issues come from selective law enforcement alone, and ignore the widespread corruption, zealotry and the basic truth that Cole states- it's dangerous when too many men in armor think they're right.
Hardly. Tevinter's issues have nothing to do with it being run by mages; it's oppression and selective law enforcement, like it is pretty much everywhere else.
SOunds like the Templars' problem was also "oppression and selective law enforcement" rather than being run by the Chantry 
Mooks with swords and antimagic abilities in general might serve a good purpose, but none of the religious or authoritative parts are necessary.
Religious/authoritative parts of the 'Order are not inherently bad. Some people respond to them positively, others negatively. We have seen cases of both. It is all variable. You do not need to have either for problematic behaviors or attitudes to exist, either, so disbanding the Templars altogether hardly solves that problem.
There is now: the Inquisition. It can help the College of Enchanters set things up.
The Inquisition is an extra-judicial organization.
Apart from the fact Dorian himself says blood magic and associated unpleasantness is a direct result of the mage's struggle for power within Tevinter? The oppression doesn't conjure itself from thin air. It's like that because people with nigh on absolute power are allowed to rule unchecked, and we know what absolute power does to anyone. Mages are humans, with all the ugly baggage that can easily come with it, and possibly exacerbated by growing in a culture that tells you that you're naturally, nay, engineered to be superior to all the mundane plebs, to say nothing of the slaves you kill to make a show for your guests.
That's not saying Kirkwall-esque Circles are the solution, before anyone pulls that strawman out, but ''freedom for all mages forever'' sounds nice and cool until you look north. There isn't much indication that people in the South are generally much better than in Tevinter, so I'm really not sure the South can't turn like Tevinter eventually. There needs to be an oversight, not the Orwellian one that was before but an oversight still.
I mean, with those same arguments, one might easily say that the Templar's issues come from selective law enforcement alone, and ignore the widespread corruption, zealotry and the basic truth that Cole states- it's dangerous when too many men in armor think they're right.
But that's like using the corruption that can be caused by wealth as an argument against money. You can't regulate people the same way, and you can't regulate away magic. It's like saying that, say, the more intelligent a person is the more they are a natural ruling class, and that we need to find a way to create an even playing field on the ability scale.
I started out extremely pro mage when I played through the first game, but as I have gone through the games and read more and more of lore, I've come to realize that there needs to be some oversight on mages from outside the collective mage group. The problem with Templars, even with throwing out the Chantry is the fact that lyrium is so bad for you. Well then we could end the Templar order and then make everyone Seekers, which could work, but then the fact that a Seeker is made tranquil and then that is reversed could get out, and there goes another reason that validates a mage's viewpoint of being oppressed. Also being that the spirit that cures a Seeker is one of Faith, that then brings us to the religious viewpoint and possible fanaticism and extremism.
However, what if other spirits could do it? Like Valor or Justice. Would that change the flavor of a Seeker's capabilities?
I suppose we could do away with oversight and let magical affairs be judged on a village by village basis, the way they were before the Chantry offered them sanctuary.
That village might go in for lynching. Don't forget that the Chantry's teachings have been interpreted as magic being evil, (partially because of the horrors that Tevinter perpetrated) and that there were lynch mobs even before the Circle was founded. Part of the reason the Inquisition was hated and feared by the common man, as I understand it, was that they actually sided with the mages when they viewed the mages as being in the right. Combine that with the recent Breach, and I trust the villages less than I trust the Chantry.
The Inquisition is an extra-judicial organization.
That doesn't stop their boss from judging people.
Well in at least some of the endings, the Seekers get a sudden membership surge post-DAI, so that solves the numbers problem. Oversight will still be an issue though.Perhaps then the Seekers should be relied upon more since they avoid the lyrium issue, but they clearly aren't numerous enough and they have even worse oversight.
http://dragonage.wik..._of_AbominationI suppose we could do away with oversight and let magical affairs be judged on a village by village basis, the way they were before the Chantry offered them sanctuary.
Apart from the fact Dorian himself says blood magic and associated unpleasantness is a direct result of the mage's struggle for power within Tevinter? The oppression doesn't conjure itself from thin air. It's like that because people with nigh on absolute power are allowed to rule unchecked, and we know what absolute power does to anyone. Mages are humans, with all the ugly baggage that can easily come with it, and possibly exacerbated by growing in a culture that tells you that you're naturally, nay, engineered to be superior to all the mundane plebs, to say nothing of the slaves you kill to make a show for your guests.
That's not saying Kirkwall-esque Circles are the solution, before anyone pulls that strawman out, but ''freedom for all mages forever'' sounds nice and cool until you look north. There isn't much indication that people in the South are generally much better than in Tevinter, so I'm really not sure the South can't turn like Tevinter eventually. There needs to be an oversight, not the Orwellian one that was before but an oversight still.
I mean, with those same arguments, one might easily say that the Templar's issues come from selective law enforcement alone, and ignore the widespread corruption, zealotry and the basic truth that Cole states- it's dangerous when too many men in armor think they're right.
Sacrifice and all that is an effect, not a cause. Just look at Sera's Verchiel March quest ("terribly standard displacement") to know that the nobility will pointlessly throw the lives of commoners away with or without magic. The problem is bad systems of government and cultural traditions of slavery, not magic.
SOunds like the Templars' problem was also "oppression and selective law enforcement" rather than being run by the Chantry
Not really. While being a mage has no inherent psychological effects, being A. prison guards, and B. religious soldiers does.
That village might go in for lynching. Don't forget that the Chantry's teachings have been interpreted as magic being evil, (partially because of the horrors that Tevinter perpetrated) and that there were lynch mobs even before the Circle was founded. Part of the reason the Inquisition was hated and feared by the common man, as I understand it, was that they actually sided with the mages when they viewed the mages as being in the right. Combine that with the recent Breach, and I trust the villages less than I trust the Chantry.
Your first sentence is his point; he's anti-mage.
What the mages need is something like the Circle for organizational backup, but which is not directly run by the Chantry. I can certainly see them working with the Chantry if relations are good, as well as the Inquisition.
The Inquisition is an extra-judicial organization.
They're more or less a new nation by now.
They're more or less a new nation by now.
A nation? The Inquisition has a lot of power, but only has direct control over a few fortress. The Inquisition needed a lot of assitance in the Arbor Wilds and Adamant.
Not really. While being a mage has no inherent psychological effects, being A. prison guards, and B. religious soldiers does.
Being a mage means constant temptation by demons and having to guard your dreams from intrusion. Plus the power to reshape reality to your will. I'd say they hare exposed to at least as much "corruption of power" as the Templars. They're both under psychological stress.
However, what if other spirits could do it? Like Valor or Justice. Would that change the flavor of a Seeker's capabilities?
Yes. Asunder made it clear that any spirit can cure Tranquility. Even a demon could. Don' t know i that would change a Seeker's abilities though.
However, those who have their Tranquil status reversed go through a period (of unknown duration) of extreme emotional instability. Like "threat to yourself and others" bad.
Being a mage means constant temptation by demons and having to guard your dreams from intrusion. Plus the power to reshape reality to your will. I'd say they hare exposed to at least as much "corruption of power" as the Templars. They're both under psychological stress.
I disagree. Neither one leads to repeatedly demonstrated psychological effects that apply to controlling other people.
Sacrifice and all that is an effect, not a cause. Just look at Sera's Verchiel March quest ("terribly standard displacement") to know that the nobility will pointlessly throw the lives of commoners away with or without magic. The problem is bad systems of government and cultural traditions of slavery, not magic.
You can't really compare displacement of populations (which is bad, of course) with widespread blood magic use on slaves. Slavery also only exists, in Thedas, in the context of a magical society (sans a much less widespread version in Orlais), there's probably a reason for that too, mages can more easily keep their slaves in line.
And if you reallly don't think being able to melt someone's face off with your mind, or just control their every move, has no inherent psychological effect, I'm afraid you are way too generous with human nature. It is not universal of course, but power of that nature can very easily corrupt the user. There's a reason every single blood mage we encounter save Merill and Malcom Hawke are complete assholes.
You can't really compare displacement of populations (which is bad, of course) with widespread blood magic use on slaves. Slavery also only exists, in Thedas, in the context of a magical society (sans a much less widespread version in Orlais), there's probably a reason for that too, mages can more easily keep their slaves in line.
And if you reallly don't think being able to melt someone's face off with your mind, or just control their every move, has no inherent psychological effect, I'm afraid you are way too generous with human nature. It is not universal of course, but power of that nature can very easily corrupt the user. There's a reason every single blood mage we encounter save Merill and Malcom Hawke are complete assholes.
"Displacement" was a euphemism; a lot of people were being killed. And slavery is also perfectly legal in Antiva, in addition to Orlais' totally-not-slavery-we-pinky-swear, not to mention the Qun's mageless thought control and various forms of standard class-based oppression.
Also, that's not true about "every single blood mage." Jowan was a well-meaning doofus, and the injured blood mage you encounter in Broken Circle came across as quite sympathetic. And in DA2, Alain was also a blood mage and remained highly sympathetic; Gascard DuPuis, too, was at least redeemable.
Jowan was a total idiot. If I play a mage, I have even less of a reason to trust him. While he does end up helping refugees, I never let him get that far and hand him over to the Circle, if not executed outright. Alain was forced to be a bloodmage by Grace (EDIT - correction: joined because of Templar pressure!).
As for Gascard Dupuis, it's always surprising that anyone would let that lying scum live. I always give him a good Vendetta shot to the back as a finishing move.
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