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Player Hatred of Fiona


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#101
SurelyForth

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That isn't true. Somehow she managed to get an alliance with the Fereldan Monarchy (I suspect the people blown up at the conclave were responsible).....and then she backstabbed them for an alliance with a group that should have zero supply lines to their current location. I seriously do not get what the heck she was supposed to believe her end game in this situation was. x_x

 

As numerous people have pointed out, she didn't think she had any choice- she  thought her options were literally "Ally with Tevinter" or "Everyone dies."

 

That's it. That's why she does what she does in Inquisition- because the Conclave explosion made her and the mages vulnerable and Alexius' ability to save scum via time travel means she thinks they are doomed unless she acts. 

 

And I think a lot of people are forgetting some things about the mage rebellion:

 

1. It was inevitable.

2. The Chantry deliberately made it hard for the mages to unify and form a cohesive rebellion. Like, everything about the Circle set-up made mages dependent upon the Chantry and made them ill-equipped to rise up on their own. There was never, ever, ever going to be an "ideal" time to rebel.

3. That being said, rebelling when she did may have actually been a good idea, because the Seekers were imploding and the templars were at odds with the Chantry. She started the rebellion at a point when the enemy of mages were at their least capable of dealing with them, which is one of the main reasons the rebellion can be a success. 



#102
keyip

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1. It was inevitable.

2. The Chantry deliberately made it hard for the mages to unify and form a cohesive rebellion. Like, everything about the Circle set-up made mages dependent upon the Chantry and made them ill-equipped to rise up on their own. There was never, ever, ever going to be an "ideal" time to rebel.

3. That being said, rebelling when she did may have actually been a good idea, because the Seekers were imploding and the templars were at odds with the Chantry. She started the rebellion at a point when the enemy of mages were at their least capable of dealing with them, which is one of the main reasons the rebellion can be a success. 

 

1 - A war against most of Ferelden and all their pets? No, it wasn't.

2 - There was never going to be an ideal time to declare war on 3/4 of the world? Good, then don't do it.

3 - She started the rebellion with half the mages firmly against her. She was never going to win.



#103
Iakus

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My problem with Fiona:

 

She'd rather die than be slaves to the Templars.   But would rather be slaves to Tevinter than die.

 

It's so hypocritical.


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#104
Duggs007

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My reaction to Fiona when I first met her, "Creators its FIONA!!!! YAAAAAAWS!!!!!!!"

 

My reaction to her by endgame, " Are you joshen' me? Talk to your son you panseycake dumb butt!!!!! I'm pretty sure Queen Cousland would've loved you." (Once she is done with her search for the cure to the Calling of course).

 

Overall I think she is an interesting person who's character still needs and has room to be built on.

 

She just made some dumb choices.


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#105
Ranadiel Marius

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As numerous people have pointed out, she didn't think she had any choice- she  thought her options were literally "Ally with Tevinter" or "Everyone dies."

 

That's it. That's why she does what she does in Inquisition- because the Conclave explosion made her and the mages vulnerable and Alexius' ability to save scum via time travel means she thinks they are doomed unless she acts. 

Whoopdido, she was wrong, so at bare minimum she made a poor assessment of her situation and her options that potentially results in all of her charges being enslaved for no good reason. I don't care what bullshit circumstances impacted her judgement, she made a horribly bad choice based on an incorrect assessment and people lost their lives over her bad judgement. She is the leader therefore her decisions, even those based on bad intelligence, rest on her shoulders. The fact that she admits that she would sell her people out again compounds the whole problem.

 

And again, what was she thinking her end game was? Turn Redcliffe into new territory for the Imperium with her mages as the citizens? Well that is stupid because there is no way the Imperium will be able to secure supply lines there. Flee with her people to the TI to start new lives? Any illusion of that should have gone away the moment Redcliffe Castle was captured. Fortify Redcliffe Castle with TI forces to defend against the imaginary templar army? That probably would weaken the defenses of Redcliffe against a templar assault since TI mages have no knowledge of how to fight against Templars (hilarious war table mission on this very subject) and the TI is not going to be able to provide mundane forces equal to the Fereldan army that would be marshaled if the templars were stupid enough to attack Redcliffe due to distance and the fact that it is in the middle of foreign territory.

 

So what benefit did allying with TI provide them with? It is a PR nightmare and does absolutely nothing to help their situation. About the only things stupider that she could have done would have been pulling an Orsino or allying with the Qun....actually the Qun would probably be willing to effectively declare war on Fereldan to protect their converts, so that might have actually been a more intelligent move on a tactical level. >.>


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#106
Giantdeathrobot

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My problem with Fiona:

 

She'd rather die than be slaves to the Templars.   But would rather be slaves to Tevinter than die.

 

It's so hypocritical.

 

Oh, but it's only for 10 years, and the old ones and children totally aren't going to be doing anything you don't want them to do even after you sell them into slavery. Trust the creepy guy who looks like freaking Palpatine to keep his word, amirite?


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#107
zambingo

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Fiona is very human in her failings and well meaning incompetence, maybe that is too much of a mirror for some people.

As for Goldanna, DAO is not invalidated by Fiona being Alistair's mom. Alistair wasn't raised by her duh, he grew up with Goldanna as his sister. No conflict. It's like no one has heard of step, foster or adoption before. LOL
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#108
Orian Tabris

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My problem with Fiona:

 

She'd rather die than be slaves to the Templars.   But would rather be slaves to Tevinter than die.

 

It's so hypocritical.

 

So basically, what you're saying/suggesting, is that it's hypocritical of someone to make a choice when backed into a corner. And that that hypocrisy somehow makes them a problem.

 

BTW, you're forgetting that she asked for Tevinter's help 3 years after her rebellion began, not when it started. She never planned to force the rebel mages into the servitude of magisters. She made a choice she didn't want to have to make. That might make her a bad leader, but it doesn't make her a hypocrite.



#109
Don Lionheart

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I am truly overjoyed at the discussion this question has created!  I will chime in again and say that I still like Fiona and understand the poor choices she made.  I did want to address one point specifically, or rather a combination of these two points:

 

 

 

1. It was inevitable.

2. The Chantry deliberately made it hard for the mages to unify and form a cohesive rebellion. Like, everything about the Circle set-up made mages dependent upon the Chantry and made them ill-equipped to rise up on their own. There was never, ever, ever going to be an "ideal" time to rebel.

3. That being said, rebelling when she did may have actually been a good idea, because the Seekers were imploding and the templars were at odds with the Chantry. She started the rebellion at a point when the enemy of mages were at their least capable of dealing with them, which is one of the main reasons the rebellion can be a success. 

 

 

1 - A war against most of Ferelden and all their pets? No, it wasn't.

2 - There was never going to be an ideal time to declare war on 3/4 of the world? Good, then don't do it.

3 - She started the rebellion with half the mages firmly against her. She was never going to win.

 

The rebellion itself was inevitable because of the way that the mages had been treated by Templars, that is a very true statement.  Also, there is never a "good" time to declare a rebellion of any sort because they're divisive in the best of cases.  But what I really need to address is this misconception that the mages were "never going to win."  Mage power is incredible, as is Templar power.  Both forces were probably about the same size, with Mages possibly outnumbering Templars by some margin because becoming a Templar is a choice, and becoming a mage is by nature.  It's not as though there is a 1-1 ratio of Templars-Mages in the world, or else every mage would have a Templar guarding over them at every moment.  And even with slightly less than half (and that is the margin if you interpret Asunder the way I did, with Libertarians and Aequetarians being the only factions to vote yes and all the other, much smaller factions voting no) of the mages initially supporting it, by virtue of the mages declaring rebellion, all mages became rebels, loyal to the circle or not.  Vivienne may be an exception because of her position of authority in Val Royeaux, but if you listen to dialogue, it's expressed that there are no Circles anymore, that all mages have become rebels.  This means that, even without support, most mages would almost be forced to seek refuge with Fiona and the determined rebels for their own safety, lest they be killed on site by Templars (which had abandoned the Chantry just after the rebellion began, as stated in the epilogue of Asunder in the letter written by Lord Seeker Lambert to Divine Justinia) who no longer viewed their goal as rounding the mages up so much as crushing the rebellion.  That all said, I believe the the mages had just as fair a chance as the Templars to win the war, even with Fiona's admittedly poor decision making skills (for some reason, which she did not show in The Calling) and lack of apparent plan.  It's the Breach that caused everything to go crazy and drive the rebels to desperation.  Oh, and one more point, there's no indication that the Templars had any plan beyond "KILL THE MAGES" either.



#110
Generic Guy

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I don't agree with her political views, but that's never stopped me from enjoying a character or automatically made me hat them.

I dislike the whole cured from the taint bit, but I could get past it if it were explored a little more and we got some answers on why and how.

But I do hate the Alistair's mom thing, it's just so contrived and needlessly shoehorned in for...I have no idea. It has no real effect on future plots and makes the whole Goldanna mission seem like the most bizarre and unnecessary conspiracy in any work of fiction I've ever read. The only explanation I can come up with is that it's a stealth joke on the overabundance of female elf romances in previous games, so now the only male love interests in DAO are an elf and a "half-elf."

#111
Nykara

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Her being

Spoiler
didn't pique your interest?

I am playing my first mage sided play through. This has not come up in my story as of yet. If it was part of a DA 2 expansion then it wont either because I've not played any of the DA 2 expansions I've only just played the game in the last month for the first time.



#112
Aimi

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YES. THERE. IS. For one, the guide outright says the mages are brainwashed by the Venatori if you side with the templars, Leliana's option if you do the charger's mission where you investigate Redcliffe describes the Venatori performing a mind-control ritual on the mages, and a note found in the Hissing Wastes if you sided with the Templars has the Venatori gloat about how they managed to brainwash the mages while the red templars failed at corrupting the templars.


If that's the case, then I guess I was wrong about that. Fair enough.

By the same token, though, the brainwashing can't be backdated to be made responsible for the initial Venatori takeover.

#113
Orian Tabris

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I am playing my first mage sided play through. This has not come up in my story as of yet. If it was part of a DA 2 expansion then it wont either because I've not played any of the DA 2 expansions I've only just played the game in the last month for the first time.

 

Actually, unless I've just ruined it for you, Fiona never mentions it, and there is no codex information on it.



#114
Orian Tabris

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Maybe people will change their opinion on Fiona when they see this.

 

 

Perhaps only works if you actually know the connection.



#115
BountyhunterGER

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I am playing my first mage sided play through. This has not come up in my story as of yet. If it was part of a DA 2 expansion then it wont either because I've not played any of the DA 2 expansions I've only just played the game in the last month for the first time.

Dragon Age The Calling (second book)

 

Spoiler


#116
Ieldra

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Here's my take on Fiona in DAI:

 

The problem is that the player has to fill in too much space with their own imagination in order to make her actions appear plausible. For instance, I've always thought that Alexius influenced her mind. If you don't fill in that space, she comes across as weak, or incompetent, or both. For you know, here's a woman who wants freedom for the mages and she allies with someone under worse conditions than those she left behind in the Circles - and then when Alexius breaks one of his promises she - just acquiesces?

 

As for people's response to her, I think you can mostly blame the books for that. I've never hated her but how she comes across in The Calling is worth some eye-rolling, and elsewhere - I don't recall where that was - she comes across as overly emotional.

 

In the end, I think Fiona is a victim of inexperienced writing and/or insufficent attention. Heaping all that extraordinariness on one character is already problematic, but you can pull it off if you give sufficient background and have the events have sufficient impact. For instance, that the Taint can be removed is a really big revelation, a revelation so world-shaking that it had to have been a plot element. Instead, it came across as a personal eccentricity. It was the same with her being Alistair's mother. As a plot element, it would have been interesting. As a personal eccentricity, added to the cured Taint, it just earns her the "super special for no sufficient reason" status. Then after people criticized the book for that, DAI overcompensated and made her too weak.

 

Personally, I don't hate her but I am, and always was, somewhat disappointed with her. She had the potential to be an extremely interesting character, but nothing was  ever done to make her that, and she never developed out of a certain immaturity before DAI. Then comes DAI and .....she just lacks presence. Too bad, really.


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#117
Paragonslustre

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I don't hate her I just don't understand her.  I will never understand why she allied herself and the rebel mages with Alexius, it doesn't make sense to me at all in the context of the story.  As someone who has always played my canon as a. mage and am pro-mage I would have rather died hurling fireballs from the ramparts of Redcliffe Castle in a last, desperate battle than hitch my wagon to a serpent.  There are some things worse than death after all.  I get over this by telling myself that there must have been some form of mind control going on because nobody in their right mind would have helped Tevinter get a foothold in Ferelden.  So no, I can't hate her because she was obviously hypnotized .....



#118
Uccio

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Don´t hate her. I don´t have any feelings for her since I have not read any of the books or comics. She is just a random NPC to me, nothing more.



#119
Ranadiel Marius

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Maybe people will change their opinion on Fiona when they see this.

 

 

Perhaps only works if you actually know the connection.

O.o What precisely is that supposed to change anyone's mind about? The fact that she is stupid? Nope still there. The fact that she is Allistair's mom? Already know that. The fact that she is a waste of space? She is still wasting space in the Library. I am guessing you are trying to humanize her so feel bad about hating her.....but that clip only tangentially relates to one of the reasons people hate her, and it does nothing to alleviate the reason, so I don't see that doing her any favors.

 

Honestly it is kind of hilarious to me personally. You see....I went with the drunk Allisair world state. You know what the implication of that world state is? She kicked her own son out of Redcliffe because in Act 3 of DA2, the Arl came and picked him up so Allistair could have a chance to rebuild his life. Meaning he was most likely living in Redcliffe at the time that the Arl was kicked out. So the gambit of world states are her performing treason against her son, her kicking her son out of where he lives, her never mentioning her son (because he is dead or alive with the wardens), or her vaguely implying that she mourns his passing as a hero. Mom of the year right here! :P


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#120
Amirit

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So, with that incredibly brief backstory of Fiona established, my question remains: why do players hate Fiona so much?  

 

I suspect the hatred comes only from meta-gaming of those familiar with books and the history of inconsistency of the character treatment from developers.

First of all, Fiona is the biggest MarySue of DA universe. She happened to break every rule of the lore with zero explanation (or close to zero in some cases). She just happened to be cured from blight, get pregnant while still "greywarding", meddling in politic left and right, being personally involved with every important person in Thedas, become the most powerful mage in Ferelden and so on, and so fort. Now, last drop for some become a sudden confirmation of her being Alistair's mother, while before writers were swearing on their graves she is not (and DAO confirmed it by everything but DNA-test).

 

Now, suddenly that semi-god figure were diminished to an insignificant idiot who, nevertheless, managed to sell free mages to Tevinter (and they somehow accepted it practically without a fuss - just imagine someone telling you "oh, btw, I arranged on your behalf selling you to slavery. You are welcome". Or may be that was a demonstration of her incredible power?).    

 

So, to answer your question, some despise her character from books and some - the way that character was finally presented in the game. The most neutral should be those who have met her only in game and never heard about her before. 


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#121
LobselVith8

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So, I've been perusing the forums for DA:I for a while, and noticed something that I just don't quite understand: why does so much of the player base (maybe even the majority of it) hate Grand Enchanter Fiona?  I posed this question on a different thread that was discussion mages (I'm not sure what the thread or exact topic was), but I didn't see any replies to it, so I'm asking it here.  Now, I've read all the Dragon Age books, and I read the comics, so I like to believe that I'm fairly well versed in the lore of the world and I have a pretty good understanding of all the characters, but what I don't understand is why people hate Fiona so much.

 

Fiona is an elf (and if you've seen the plethora of trolls who derail any elf thread that comes up in the public forums, then you'd understand that alone is sufficient for some people to hate her). She's a mage who supports autonomy from the Chantry and the templars. Those are the primary reasons why some people disliked Fiona before Inquisition came out.

 

She was a rape victim and slave of an Orlesian noble and ended up becoming a Circle mage, and then a Grey Warden who ended up getting cured of the taint - so some people throw "Mary Sue" and "Special Snowflake" around, but it's excessive, and it's not like the dialogue with Fiona was railroaded in the way it is for Vivienne, where companions are almost always wrong (Iron Bull consistently comes across as a buffoon in their exchanges, while only Solas is able to get one up on her during one of their few exchanges), or where the protagonist can't disagree with her because Vivienne's writer railroads the conversations to try and make her have the upper hand (even though, like the furniture scene, it ends up making her come across as quite petulant, instead of a supposed 'master of the Game'). It's even more silly when you consider this approach is taken even when Vivienne acts like she knows more about the Dalish than Lavellan.

 

Vivienne is the's the leader of the Loyalists; she's even a mage who can become the Divine. Of course, Vivienne supports the Chantry controlled Circles, so the same people who hate Fiona simply don't make the same claims (about "Mary Sue" or being a "Special Snowflake") about Vivienne because they agree with her ideology.

 

Fiona went through a traumatic experience, and she served as a Grey Warden; she didn't ally with the Architect. I don't think the so-called 'romance' between Fiona and Maric was done well at all (it was a pretty cliched trope), but I respected Fiona's decision to return to the Circle and try to fight for a better future for her people.

 

Assuming everyone here has played DA:I, everyone should know that Fiona is the one who declared the mage rebellion in the first place.  The more complicated backstory in that decisions involves her initial call for a vote with the College of Enchanters that resulted in the College being disbanded prior to the events of Dragon Age: Asunder, and then due to the events that take place in the novel, the College is reformed, everything goes crazy, and it meets again in Andoral's Reach, where Rhys (who's mentioned but not seen in DA:I and is the main character of Asunder) has taken up leadership of the Aequitarians faction in the stead of his late mother Wynne, who had previously voted against independence, and decides to vote for independence, which officially begins the Mage Rebellion.

 

The simple fact is that the mages democratically voted for autonomy from the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars; they weren't declaring war against the templars (a simple fact that's consistently overlooked in these discussions by certain people). The templars elected to separate from the Chantry and go to war against the mages; Lambert even makes it clear that part of his objective is to gain more power for his order:

 

"Lambert slammed the door shut and allowed himself a smile. He imagined the Divine reading that. Without the templars, the Chantry was toothless - nothing more than a bunch of old women armed only with words. What would she do? Try to convince the people, after ages of teaching them mages were to be feared and contained, that now everything was different? In three days the templar host would march on Andoral’s Reach. With any luck, by the time he returned victorious the Chantry would have come to its senses and chosen a new Divine... one that would be eager to reach a new Accord with the seekers, plac­ing the power much more firmly where it belonged."

 

In contrast, Fiona addressed why she returned to the Circle: "I came to the Circle from the Grey Wardens because I saw something had to be done. In the Wardens, we learn to watch for our moment and seize it - and that moment is now."

 

Now, what people may or may not know (though I'm willing to bet a lot of people who read this are going to know by virtue of the fact they're reading forums at all) is Fiona's history as a Grey Warden (which has a single dialogue choice explaining it in DA:I) who was accompanied by King Maric and went along with other Grey Wardens to search for the previously Warden-Commander of Orlais, who'd been captured by The Architect when he went on his Calling, during the events of Dragon Age: The Calling.  Without going into too much detail for the sake of saving space and time, Fiona ends up losing the taint within her and is no longer a Grey Warden at the end of the novel, and also gave birth to Maric's illegitimate son (and king in my canon playthrough), Alistair.

 

So, with that incredibly brief backstory of Fiona established, my question remains: why do players hate Fiona so much?  Sure, she gave in to Tevinter Magisters, but that has more to do, in my opinion, with the fact that they had used time travel to get to Redcliffe before Fiona had approached the then-Herald of Andraste in Val Royeaux.  If they had not used time travel, the mages would not have aligned with Tevinter because they knew that the Inquisition was on its way.  However, with Tevinter using time travel, Fiona had no way of knowing the Inquisition was coming because she had never gone to them for aid, not with the altered timeline.  So, aside from her siding with Tevinter, which is admittedly foolish on her part, what's everyone's beef with her?

 

It's mentioned that Alexius had spies infiltrating Redcliffe as refugees, and that there was concern that the templars would attack them (there was a large templar presence that headed in their direction, but it ended up going to Therinfal Redoubt instead of Redcliffe). Both the mages and the templars ended up allying with Corypheus' forces, but it's only the mages who end up vilified for it. It's also addressed that Alexius' promises to her were invalidated (as she pointed out he said some wouldn't be forced into the five year indentured servitude).

 

Of course, the same mages under Fiona (if they are accepted as allies by the Inquisitor) are able to create the College of Enchanters - an independent organization of mages, free of Chantry and templar control, who focus on finding solutions to age-old problems.



#122
Arakat

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Fiona is very human in her failings and well meaning incompetence, maybe that is too much of a mirror for some people.

As for Goldanna, DAO is not invalidated by Fiona being Alistair's mom. Alistair wasn't raised by her duh, he grew up with Goldanna as his sister. No conflict. It's like no one has heard of step, foster or adoption before. LOL

 

But the thing is, they didn't grow up together. The maid didn't raise Alistair. Goldanna was kicked out of Redcliffe castle after her mother died giving birth to a baby who was supposedly Maric's, and she was told the baby died as well. Similarly, Alistair was told her mother was a maid who died in childbirth, and he only found out about Goldanna when he was older.

 

It's unclear whether a maid in Redcliffe actually gave birth to a child of Maric's, or if it was all a ridiculously contrived and unnecessary plot by Eamon & co to hide Alistair's background from him.



#123
Dean_the_Young

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So, I've been perusing the forums for DA:I for a while, and noticed something that I just don't quite understand: why does so much of the player base (maybe even the majority of it) hate Grand Enchanter Fiona?  I posed this question on a different thread that was discussion mages (I'm not sure what the thread or exact topic was), but I didn't see any replies to it, so I'm asking it here.  Now, I've read all the Dragon Age books, and I read the comics, so I like to believe that I'm fairly well versed in the lore of the world and I have a pretty good understanding of all the characters, but what I don't understand is why people hate Fiona so much.

 

...snip...

 

So, with that incredibly brief backstory of Fiona established, my question remains: why do players hate Fiona so much?  Sure, she gave in to Tevinter Magisters, but that has more to do, in my opinion, with the fact that they had used time travel to get to Redcliffe before Fiona had approached the then-Herald of Andraste in Val Royeaux.  If they had not used time travel, the mages would not have aligned with Tevinter because they knew that the Inquisition was on its way.  However, with Tevinter using time travel, Fiona had no way of knowing the Inquisition was coming because she had never gone to them for aid, not with the altered timeline.  So, aside from her siding with Tevinter, which is admittedly foolish on her part, what's everyone's beef with her?

 

Here you go.

 

 

 

Copy-pasted from here for future reference when someone wonders how anyone could not like Fiona.

 

TL;DR without being a TL;DR thread.

 

 

===

 

All these backstory contrivances are indeed eye-roll worthy exasperations, it's true, but they're not why I dislike her. The real reason is this-

 

Fiona is an awful leader for the mage rebellion she midwifed. She wants to be a rockstar revolutionary, but doesn't have the chops or the skills for it.

 

To start, she doesn't provide a goal or endstate to motivate or unify the mages behind her. Rather than set out a persuasive ambition and narrative that convinces a clear majority of the mages to agree with her  viewpoints, the mage rebellion only kicks off because of a context that made many of those present fear imminent death if they did not declare resistance. From the start a critical mass of her movement was either uninterested or fixated on short-term survival, and not aligned with her vision.

 

Not only could she not define what the movement was for, but she could not unify movement either. Shortly after her leadership, the mages scatter and schism. I'm not doing her much of a favor by believing that she was uninvolved with the renegade mages in the Hinterlands. But that's just it- she was uninvolved, neither preventing or correcting the rise of a nakedly mage-supremacist movement in her own ranks. The Templar atrocities and crimes against the people in the area can at least be understood (but not pardoned) of the crimes of conducting a war and effecitvely a ruthless counter-insurgency campaign, but the mage conduct of setting little people aflame for funny looks doesn't even advance that argument. When one of the greatest political fears of Thedas is that mages outside of the Circles would seek mage supremacy and care only about themselves, Fiona's rebellion did just that. Instead of policing themselves to present themselves as noble revolutionaries deserving of sympathy, Fiona would not and could not reign in her movement to stick to an overarching strategy.

 

Some of this might have been mitigated had Fiona had some plan, had made preparations that might have enabled a mage victory regardless, but she didn't. She doesn't, and never had, the forces to militarily beat the Templars. She wasn't even intending to stage a rebellion for the purposes of subsequent negotiating leverage. Fiona's planning never seems to have extended beyond '**** the Divine,' '???', 'FREEDOM!' planning. There was no stronghold set up for a resistance if they were going to huddle up in a single place (bad idea), nor a pre-existing support network to hide the mages and smuggle them about if the intent was to avoid fighting (which she could have been working on for years). She's bitter that she has no allies... after helping evict a major nobleman of a sympathetic monarch who unnecessarily offers her sanctuary, and failing to set up deals or ties beforehand.

 

After being faced with the consequences of her poor planning that even a modestly aware revolutionary strategist should have seen coming, her poor decisionmaking continues with the Tevinter/Venitori alliance. Or so she likes to describe it as- an alliance is an arrangement against relative equals, and Fiona breaks a major Andrastian taboo (and political kryptonite to the hemoraphaging mage reputation) by selling her own people into slavery in the name of security.

 

Please, let that settle in a bit. The mage rebellion, a revolt against an oppressive security state that trades mage freedom for security, effectively ends itself by trading freedom (including, or rather especially, the freedom to own the consequences of their actions and choices) for the safety of servitude. Being a prisoner never forced to work but who could face illegal abuse or be killed unjustly? Unacceptable. Being a servant with even fewer legal rights, even less recourse to more infamous abuse, and likely forced to serve in the most active military of the world that views even your blood as a tool of value? Well, it's a dangerous world out there!

 

This is a deal so shortsighted that it's staggering. I, for one, am not inclined to blame the mages for selling themselves to the Venatori per-say. I still need a Templar playthrough to see if/when the mages knew what they were getting into, and if they stayed without magical coercion. But not knowing about the Venatori schemes is not a defense, because one of the big risks of mages is what they can inadverdantly get themselves into thanks to trickery (such as the demonic kind), and the Tevinter angle itself is sufficiently suspect that an ulterior motive should have been suspected from the start.

 

Fiona believes that Tevinter will protect her from the renegade Templar armies outside of her gate because... well, it's never clear exactly why she would think that. Because he said so, mostly. Did she really think the Templars forces who defy the Chantry and rampage in the borders of Ferelden will be cowed by the prospect of Tevinter reprisals? That the non-existent Tevinter army will stand between her and them? That uniquely Tevinter magic of a Magister and his retinue will do what dozens or hundreds of mages in the Hinterlands could not? If Redcliffe was going to fall to a Templar assault (an assault, it should be pointed out, that never came), then a Tevinter Magister's intervention is not a credible deterrent or defense. Not from defending against Templars, and certainly not from Ferelden's inevitable retaliation when the Arl is run out of his own castle. Tevinter not only would not fight a war with Ferelden for a city they have no supply lines to and no ability to keep, but they could not. The existence of an ulterior motive is obvious, even if not explicit, and the only obvious objective is the mages themselves. Alexius wants the mages, and wants them for reasons he does not think they would agree to if he told them, and Fiona sells them into servitude to him for a promise he could not keep if he was honest anyway.

 

There's more than a few parallels to the fears non-mages have about how Mages will inevitably resort to magical abuses or demons when desperate. Based on her willingness to throw away principles, break cultural taboos, and push down the surrounding mundanes in favor of the magi, it really does seem like the biggest reason Fiona didn't make deals with demons in Redcliffe was because an even worse devil in disguise approached her first. And considering that the 'disguise' part could just as well apply to the machinations of spirits... well, overall it's a utter failure of the argument that the mages could be trusted to not resort to desperate measures when desperate.

 

 

So, as a revolutionary, Fiona leaves a lot to be desired. She's not a rallying figure who leads by inspiring or convincing others to follow her. She's not a strong leader who can keep her subordinates in line and moving in a single direction. She's not a political visionary who could find common ground or strike bargains or alliances that people would be justified in having faith she would follow through with through thick and thin. She's not a competent military strategist who can recognize losing fights and adopt strategies that identify relative abilities and avoids being drawn into losing battles. She's not a careful conspirator who acts in advance, subtly crafting conditions to favor her efforts and ensure success before a confrontation even emerges. She's not a clever thinker who can identify tricks and traps and set her own while avoiding those laid out by those who would exploit and subvert her crusade for their own ends. She's not even a principled paragon who can inspire and gain ethical credibility by refusing to break her principles.

 

 

Any of those would at least be credible forms of a lead revolutionary. She is supposed to be an agent of independence and self-determination, but at every stage her ambitions rely on the acquiesence and protection of other, more powerfull people who could alter the rebellion's fate as they wished. First the Divine, then Ferelden, then Tevinter, and possibly the Inquisition, and then back to the Divine. All of these people had the ability to stop (and crush) her rebellion if they had wished, and the only reason she wasn't crushed was because they didn't want to (despite numerous deliberate offenses). Even in the most radically pro-mage independence playthrough none of the favorable results are a consequence of policies she has achieved or put into effect by influence or will, but rather a result of other people making policies for their own reasons. And if/when any of them refused to indulge her... she has no recourse, except to turn to yet another patron to do for her and her rebellion what she could not.

 

 

The fact that she's completely unapologetic about it? That she says she has no regrets and would do the same things again? That she doesn't even have the insight and humility to acknowledge her own shortcoming and failures and indicate an effort to improve herself accordingly?

 

Fiona isn't fit for what she tries to be. As a revolutionary, as a leader, as everything the mage movement needed to be a success rather than to just be. Instead she plays a major key role in getting a lot of good people killed for a cause she wasn't capable of carrying out on her own.

 

Can she succeed in getting her goals regardless? Sure- through no power or influence of her own. A recklessly reformist divine, a like-minded Inquisitor, a sympathetic monarch, a host of people who wanted similar things she wanted but couldn't get for herself. Even fools can succeed if other people gives them what they want.

 

Fiona isn't an idiot. She's incompetent.


 


  • Korva, PhroXenGold, TobiTobsen et 10 autres aiment ceci

#124
Little Princess Peach

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shes a bland person calling her a Character gives her to much credit, if you want to bring someone like her into the game from the books at least give her more to do Bioware I so wanted to tell King Alistair that I found his mother by doing some investigating work because guess what thats what the inquisition dose they investigate  things.

 

Sadly she was just a camo that never leaves the castle


  • Orian Tabris aime ceci

#125
Orian Tabris

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O.o What precisely is that supposed to change anyone's mind about? The fact that she is stupid? Nope still there. The fact that she is Allistair's mom? Already know that. The fact that she is a waste of space? She is still wasting space in the Library. I am guessing you are trying to humanize her so feel bad about hating her.....but that clip only tangentially relates to one of the reasons people hate her, and it does nothing to alleviate the reason, so I don't see that doing her any favors.

 

Honestly it is kind of hilarious to me personally. You see....I went with the drunk Allisair world state. You know what the implication of that world state is? She kicked her own son out of Redcliffe because in Act 3 of DA2, the Arl came and picked him up so Allistair could have a chance to rebuild his life. Meaning he was most likely living in Redcliffe at the time that the Arl was kicked out. So the gambit of world states are her performing treason against her son, her kicking her son out of where he lives, her never mentioning her son (because he is dead or alive with the wardens), or her vaguely implying that she mourns his passing as a hero. Mom of the year right here! :P

 

Huh... I guess you hateful people are nothing like those saps I found on YouTube. To me, they seem like they must/would cuddle their family members because it's the only way they know how to cope with loss. I just figured you hateful people would be the same. Turns out you guys are actually evil, not just misguided fools.

 

Or maybe you're just one guy (straight male, white skin, dark brown/dark hair no doubt, LOL), and don't actually represent the populace of questioning morons here.

 

For me, I never made Alistair a drunk, or made Loghain a Grey Warden (except to see what he has to say when you talk to him in camp), and in my most evil playthrough (I had 3, all female), I had Alistair sacrifice himself. The other two romanced him, and I'm not even attracted to Alistair. Hopefully that will show you where I stand on him. As for Fiona, there is no way to interact with her in a positive or negative way (ignoring siding with the Templars) directly with a PC.