1363 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Jowan was a total idiot. If I play a mage, I have even less of a reason to trust him. While he does end up helping refugees, I never let him get that far and hand him over to the Circle, if not executed outright. Alain was forced to be a bloodmage by Grace.

 

As for Gascard Dupuis, it's always surprising that anyone would let that lying scum live. I always give him a good Vendetta shot to the back as a finishing move.

That's not what Alain says. He says that he did it because the templar oppression had become too extreme.

[KaiserShep]

My mistake. Just the same, the vast majority of bloodmages we encounter are generally insidious vampires of some sort.

[Giantdeathrobot]

"Displacement" was a euphemism; a lot of people were being killed. And slavery is also perfectly legal in Antiva, in addition to Orlais' totally-not-slavery-we-pinky-swear, not to mention the Qun's mageless thought control and various forms of standard class-based oppression.

 

Also, that's not true about "every single blood mage." Jowan was a well-meaning doofus, and the injured blood mage you encounter in Broken Circle came across as quite sympathetic. And in DA2, Alain was also a blood mage and remained highly sympathetic; Gascard DuPuis, too, was at least redeemable.

 

A lot of people were killed? Where does it say that? The war table mission talks of scuffles between the supporters of both nobles, but it was not an all-out war or anything like that. I'm sure there were deaths, but a lot is stretching it.

 

Yet we never learn of mass mistreatment of slaves there (apart from the Qun qhich stands on its own in terms of oppression). You are right that I overlooked Antiva, but it seems nowhere near as bad with slavery as the Vints, who go all the way to Ferelden to fetch slaves and don't even hesitate to kill a roomfull of them if it saves their skin.

 

Jowan was not an *******, granted, but he was an irresponsible dummy who caused way too much trouble. The mage in Broken Circle stands unapologic after helping cause the mess the Circle is in. Alain was forced to be a blood mage as Kaiser said. DuPuis was admiring a serial killer's work and wanted to learn from him, that kinda fits the definition of complete ******* don't you think?

 

Next to that, we got the aggressive blood mages in Broken Circle, the Tevinter slavers in the Alienage (including their mass murdering leader), the guys you kill in a sidequest in Denerim, Grace and her followers, Idunna, Denerius and his underlings, Quentyn, Orsino, the blood mage you fight in The Final Straw with all the demons, the crazy elf guy that comes back for his ex girlfriend, the one who willingly turns into an abomination to fight you in Act 3, that crazy girl in Act 1 with the dopey makeup, and several others in DA2 I can't be bothered to remember because that game had so many blood mages.

 

The games definitely do not support the notion that magic, especially blood magic, does not corrupt the user. Dorian in particular says that it drives you to always seek more, so while you could have good intentions at the beginning it's hard not to end up killing people to light your candles. And as someone who has lived in Tevinter, he has seen more blood magic than most.

 

Oh, one aversion I forgot is Avernus. Who is kind of an ass and helped precipitate the Warden's fall, but they were dommed anyway and Sophia was on board too.  

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I disagree. Neither one leads to repeatedly demonstrated psychological effects that apply to controlling other people.

 

https://www.psycholo...-weapons-effect.

[Xilizhra]

My mistake. Just the same, the vast majority of bloodmages we encounter are generally insidious vampires of some sort.

So are the majority of people, because drama and combat.

 

 

A lot of people were killed? Where does it say that? The war table mission talks of scuffles between the supporters of both nobles, but it was not an all-out war or anything like that. I'm sure there were deaths, but a lot is stretching it.

 

Yet we never learn of mass mistreatment of slaves there (apart from the Qun qhich stands on its own in terms of oppression). You are right that I overlooked Antiva, but it seems nowhere near as bad with slavery as the Vints, who go all the way to Ferelden to fetch slaves and don't even hesitate to kill a roomfull of them if it saves their skin.

 

Jowan was not an *******, granted, but he was an irresponsible dummy who caused way too much trouble. The mage in Broken Circle stands unapologic after helping cause the mess the Circle is in. Alain was forced to be a blood mage as Kaiser said. DuPuis was admiring a serial killer's work and wanted to learn from him, that kinda fits the definition of complete ******* don't you think?

 

Next to that, we got the aggressive blood mages in Broken Circle, the Tevinter slavers in the Alienage (including their mass murdering leader), the guys you kill in a sidequest in Denerim, Grace and her followers, Idunna, Denerius and his underlings, Quentyn, Orsino, the blood mage you fight in The Final Straw with all the demons, the crazy elf guy that comes back for his ex girlfriend, the one who willingly turns into an abomination to fight you in Act 3, that crazy girl in Act 1 with the dopey makeup, and several others in DA2 I can't be bothered to remember because that game had so many blood mages.

 

The games definitely do not support the notion that magic, especially blood magic, does not corrupt the user. Dorian in particular says that it drives you to always seek more, so while you could have good intentions at the beginning it's hard not to end up killing people to light your candles. And as someone who has lived in Tevinter, he has seen more blood magic than most.

 

Oh, one aversion I forgot is Avernus. Who is kind of an ass and helped precipitate the Warden's fall, but they were dommed anyway and Sophia was on board too.  

Tevinter was only in Ferelden because Loghain invited them, Alain wasn't forced, aforementioned rule of drama, and magic doesn't inherently corrupt you; it doesn't grab your brain and force you to do things. Whether you go too far with it or not depends wholly on your personality; it has nothing to do with the magic itself.

[Steelcan]

 

Tevinter was only in Ferelden because Loghain invited them, Alain wasn't forced, aforementioned rule of drama, and magic doesn't inherently corrupt you; it doesn't grab your brain and force you to do things. Whether you go too far with it or not depends wholly on your personality; it has nothing to do with the magic itself.

And we seem to disagree, magic has an inherent danger to it, danger that leads to stress either from resistance or from a desire to achieve more.

 

You can't say "templars are shaped by their role but mages aren't" just because you don't like the implications it has. 

[KaiserShep]

So are the majority of people, because drama and combat.

 

Sure, but few can actually turn other people into blood batteries, like Hadriana did when she started killing her elven slaves to augment her powers in preparation for Hawke and Fenris' arrival.

[Iakus]

I disagree. Neither one leads to repeatedly demonstrated psychological effects that apply to controlling other people.

Tevinter's been demonstrating that for thousands of years.

 

Caste system with mages at the top. Soporati have no real power.

 

Blood magic.  Tevinter uses slaves as essentially batteries for powering their spells.

 

Muggles in Tevinter are just there to serve their mage masters, including dying for their magic.  It's every bit as bad as the worst Templar offences.  The powerful having total control over their "lessers"  They're no longer "real" people.  Much as how Orlesian nobility views peasants.  Or  as many templars view mages. 

[Xilizhra]

Tevinter's been demonstrating that for thousands of years.

 

Caste system with mages at the top. Soporati have no real power.

 

Blood magic.  Tevinter uses slaves as essentially batteries for powering their spells.

 

Muggles in Tevinter are just there to serve their mage masters, including dying for their magic.  It's every bit as bad as the worst Templar offences.  The powerful having total control over their "lessers"  They're no longer "real" people.  Much as how Orlesian nobility views peasants.  Or  as many templars view mages. 

Being noble has much more to do with that than being mages. There are enslaved mages, lower-class mages, mages killed off for petty reasons everywhere in Tevinter.

[Steelcan]

Being noble has much more to do with that than being mages. There are enslaved mages, lower-class mages, mages killed off for petty reasons everywhere in Tevinter.

yes, they are mages born into the right families or those who make the right connections

 

but they are still mages, even lower class mages such as Feynriel are awed by the power of the upper classes

[Xilizhra]

yes, they are mages born into the right families or those who make the right connections

 

but they are still mages, even lower class mages such as Feynriel are awed by the power of the upper classes

Magic is just another blood requirement along with other familial things; it's not different from the nobles of other nations.

[Iakus]

Being noble has much more to do with that than being mages. There are enslaved mages, lower-class mages, mages killed off for petty reasons everywhere in Tevinter.

And even the lowliest mage is higher up than any nonmage.

 

Commoners dream of their children becoming mages, and elevating them out of the muck and into high society.

[Giantdeathrobot]

 

Tevinter was only in Ferelden because Loghain invited them, Alain wasn't forced, aforementioned rule of drama, and magic doesn't inherently corrupt you; it doesn't grab your brain and force you to do things. Whether you go too far with it or not depends wholly on your personality; it has nothing to do with the magic itself.

 

You're applying some pretty serious double standards. Templars don't force you to mistreat mages, either. No one forces a noble to be a dick to his subjects. Templars are shaped by their function as jailors, but Mages aren't shaped, at all, by their ability to bend reality to their will? Nobles are shaped by their station in society, but Mages are in no way different from anyone else even if they command powers potentially far greater than any noble?

 

I daresay, that point of view crashes pretty hard on the reality of how humans work and how magic is depicted in game. Power unchecked will be abused by most people who have it. That is true for nobles, certainly, and it's just as true for mages. When you combine both, well, you get Tevinter, with abuses that are only matched in the totalitarian Qun.

 

We have it from Dorian's word; if you want to go anywhere in Tevinter society, you need to be a mage. If you want to rise higher, you pretty much need to be a blood mage. This isn't propaganda. He knows exactly what he's talking about. 

[Xilizhra]

And even the lowliest mage is higher up than any nonmage.

 

Commoners dream of their children becoming mages, and elevating them out of the muck and into high society.

Incorrect. A free Soporati is higher than an enslaved mage (especially, IIRC, if they're in the military).

 

 

You're applying some pretty serious double standards. Templars don't force you to mistreat mages, either. No one forces a noble to be a dick to his subjects. Templars are shaped by their function as jailors, but Mages aren't shaped, at all, by their ability to bend reality to their will? Nobles are shaped by their station in society, but Mages are in no way different from anyone else even if they command powers potentially far greater than any noble?

 

I daresay, that point of view crashes pretty hard on the reality of how humans work and how magic is depicted in game. Power unchecked will be abused by most people who have it. That is true for nobles, certainly, and it's just as true for mages. When you combine both, well, you get Tevinter, with abuses that are only matched in the totalitarian Qun.

 

We have it from Dorian's word; if you want to go anywhere in Tevinter society, you need to be a mage. If you want to rise higher, you pretty much need to be a blood mage. This isn't propaganda. He knows exactly what he's talking about. 

Templars are shaped by what they choose to be and do. Mages don't get a choice in being mages, but all templars are there because they wish it. As for nobles, they can leave that life behind too, if they wish, but mages can't. To judge and restrict a mage simply for being such is unjust. Certainly they require protection from demonic possession, but that's it.

[Iakus]

Incorrect. A free Soporati is higher than an enslaved mage (especially, IIRC, if they're in the military).

 

And is nothing but a blood magic battery to an altus, which is any mage that isn't a slave.

 

 

Templars are shaped by what they choose to be and do. Mages don't get a choice in being mages, but all templars are there because they wish it. As for nobles, they can leave that life behind too, if they wish, but mages can't. To judge and restrict a mage simply for being such is unjust. Certainly they require protection from demonic possession, but that's it.

 

Mages don't get a chocie about being a mage, but what they choose to do with that magic is thier own.  Just as what a Templar chooses to do with their strenght and authority is thier own.  And a noble can choose to use or abuse their power.

[Xilizhra]

And is nothing but a blood magic battery to an altus, which is any mage that isn't a slave.

Wrong. The altus are the high nobility, the mages descended from the ancient dreamers. Below them are laetans, mages who don't have that advantage of blood. And below even them are the praeteri, who don't seem to be described, but might be enslaved mages. In any case, there are mages who don't practice blood magic, and even more mages who don't practice the actually evil type of blood magic; those are just the ones who want to seize power in the Magisterium.

 

 

Mages don't get a chocie about being a mage, but what they choose to do with that magic is thier own.  Just as what a Templar chooses to do with their strenght and authority is thier own.  And a noble can choose to use or abuse their power.

The point being that the imprisonment is unjust.

[General TSAR]

The second camp hates her because she is a complete moron in DAI (which is also the reason why the term Mary Sue is used less often when talking about her than it used to be). She started a war against the templars with absolutely no plan on how to make the rebellion work beyond, "We deserve freedom." By dumb luck her people manage to get positioned in the most defensible city in the South thanks to the mercy of the Fereldan monarch. However the moment she hears (false) rumors that the templars are marching on Redcliffe her solution is not to plan with the ARL on how to best protect the village, but to betray his trust, ally with a foreign power that is incapable of assisting in the hypothetical situation she fears, and institute a rebellion. And to top it off, in the process she sells her people into slavery unknowingly. Then when she realizes that she is dealing with Darth Vader, her response is to whimper like a kicked puppy rather than trying to do anything about it. Hell she doesn't even help save the mages in their quest. And no, time travel magic does not excuse any of these incompetencies. In DAI she is an incompetent leader and does more to hurt the cause of mage freedom than even the templars by showing that yes the mages will side with the evil empire if freed from the watchful eye of the templars.

Hear! Hear!

 

"Let's start a war against the Templars, it's not like the free world of Thedas despise and fear us because of Kirkwall. What can possibly go wrong?"

 

"Oh noes, people don't like us, thank you Arl Teagan for granting us this slice of real estate.....OH NOES HOLY WARRIORS! Hey umm convenient Tevinter magister who showed up in the nick of time, can you help us pretty please? We'll pledge ourselves to you and de facto allow you to annex Redcliffe! YAY!"

 

"What?! Slavery to Evil Tevinter because we pledged ourselves to Evil Tevinter?! Who could have expected that?!"

 

It's a roller coaster of failure.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I disagree. Neither one leads to repeatedly demonstrated psychological effects that apply to controlling other people.

Gaider has explicitly stated that that's the main danger of blood magic: it doesn't turn you evil as an innate property, but being evil is really tempting when you have all that power to use getting away with it.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The point being that the imprisonment is unjust.

Yes it is. But the alternative can end up being even more so. Ask the people of Redcliffe about a decade before Inquisition.

[Iakus]

Wrong. The altus are the high nobility, the mages descended from the ancient dreamers. Below them are laetans, mages who don't have that advantage of blood. And below even them are the praeteri, who don't seem to be described, but might be enslaved mages. In any case, there are mages who don't practice blood magic, and even more mages who don't practice the actually evil type of blood magic; those are just the ones who want to seize power in the Magisterium.

 

 

The point being that the imprisonment is unjust.

I did use the wrong term.  It should hav ebeen laetan rather than altus.  Bt that doesn't change my point.  Soporoti are the underclass of Tevinter society.  Becomig a mage "elevates" you and you family to the laetans.  If you're not a mage, you're nobody.  And even if you are a mage, you have to be on guard for more powerful mages.

 

  Mages who don't practice blood magic in Tevinter are the weak and the ostracized.  COnsidered fools for turning away power.  And even the "not evil" aspects of bood magic are pretty dark grey. 

 

SUre imprisonment is unjust.  But different Circles had different rules about being able to leave.  Maybe the answer is to have more Circles like Montsimmard?

[Xilizhra]

Yes it is. But the alternative can end up being even more so. Ask the people of Redcliffe about a decade before Inquisition.

What, attempted assassination combined with terrible training? That is indeed also a bad circumstance.

 

 

I did use the wrong term.  It should hav ebeen laetan rather than altus.  Bt that doesn't change my point.  Soporoti are the underclass of Tevinter society.  Becomig a mage "elevates" you and you family to the laetans.  If you're not a mage, you're nobody.  And even if you are a mage, you have to be on guard for more powerful mages.

 

  Mages who don't practice blood magic in Tevinter are the weak and the ostracized.  COnsidered fools for turning away power.  And even the "not evil" aspects of bood magic are pretty dark grey. 

 

SUre imprisonment is unjust.  But different Circles had different rules about being able to leave.  Maybe the answer is to have more Circles like Montsimmard?

Dorian's father didn't seem that weak or ostracized, despite apparently eschewing blood magic. And Dorian himself not using it hadn't been a major factor in potentially not being powerful enough. I also disagree on the shades of grey you believe in in this case.

 

And Leliana already has a perfectly acceptable answer, one I believe we can run with.

[Iakus]

 

Dorian's father didn't seem that weak or ostracized, despite apparently eschewing blood magic. And Dorian himself not using it hadn't been a major factor in potentially not being powerful enough. I also disagree on the shades of grey you believe in in this case.

 

And Leliana already has a perfectly acceptable answer, one I believe we can run with.

 

Yeah he eschewed it so much he tried to achieve Synthesis with his son using it...

 

And Dorian rejected a lot of Tevinter's practices.  Blood magic being one of them.

 

We will have to see if Leliana's answer really is an answer, or if said mages decide to form their own mini -Teviner in Redcliffe (or some other city) again or something 

[Xilizhra]

Yeah he eschewed it so much he tried to achieve Synthesis with his son using it...

 

And Dorian rejected a lot of Tevinter's practices.  Blood magic being one of them.

 

We will have to see if Leliana's answer really is an answer, or if said mages decide to form their own mini -Teviner in Redcliffe (or some other city) again or something 

Synthesis? You really didn't get that ending, did you?

 

As for Leliana... well, frankly, I don't see anything wronger with a magocracy than with this nonmage noble oligarchy business.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

As for Leliana... well, frankly, I don't see anything wronger with a magocracy than with this nonmage noble oligarchy business.

I do find it mildly scary that the same oligarchs who have power over the Tevinter state and its state religion also have control of its magic.

[TK514]

 
Your first sentence is his point; he's anti-mage.

Only on the BSN. But in this case, I'm less anti-mage than I am pro-history.

The history of Thedas is one where normal people and mages cannot coexist peacefully. For the safety of both, the groups must be kept separate, with well trained and effective anti-magic troops in place to defend against magical excess and accident, while also protecting their charges from outside aggression.

I don't really care what you call them or who they pledge themselves to so long as they are not controlled by the mages themselves.