1363 réponses à ce sujet

[Lumix19]

I don't think there's a better long-term option, and unless I'm missing something I've given reasons against all the other short-term options.

No I don't think you've missed anything. I may not agree but I can respect your decision.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

No I don't think you've missed anything. I may not agree but I can respect your decision.

It's not my decision until I get a computer upgrade, or just give up and buy the PS3 version. Until then all I can do is backseat play for other BSN'ers.  

[Lumix19]

It's not my decision until I get a computer upgrade, or just give up and by the PS3 version. Until then all I can do is backseat play for other BSN'ers.  

Well I hope you get an upgrade soon.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Well I hope you get an upgrade soon.

So do I.

[TK514]

I never said it was viable.  The genie is out of the bottle, so to speak.  I merely proposed it as a hypothetical.

[Dean_the_Young]

Isolationism has always seemed like the worst solution to me. Few things foster enmity more effectively than segregation.

 

Eh.  You need to distinguish between isolationism and separatism.

 

There have been arguments made that one of the common points for successful states (such as most of Europe, and Asia) vis-a-vis failed states is the degree of identity-homogeneity within the borders. Ethnic homogeneity ('the Germans,' 'the Koreans'), religious homogeneity, cultural homogeneity- whatever people most identify with and by, it should be overwhelmingly dominant, with the 'other' relegated to outside the borders and overwhelmingly dominant within its own area.

 

The commonly raised examples of when this doesn't happen is the Colonial-legacy map borders for Africa and the Middle East, which frequently don't have the sort of ethnic/cultural homogeneity within their borders that many ethnic-identity states take for granted.

[Dean_the_Young]

They can only be sworn to the mages, or else they'll make themselves masters of the mages. Abuse is inevitable either way; we might as well go with the sort that exists in every single government ever, as opposed to the whole oppressive prison guards thing.

 

Why?

 

Well, besides that you favor the 1% oligarchy you sympathize with more than the 99% majority that would be the master of any remotely representative civil society.

[TK514]

Why?

 

Well, besides that you favor the 1% oligarchy you sympathize with more than the 99% majority that would be the master of any remotely representative civil society.

 

I've never really seen any of the BSN pro-mage set explain why mages deserve preferential treatment.  It's just assumed in every proposal that mages deserve to be treated better than every other non-noble in the world.

[LOLandStuff]

I've never really seen any of the BSN pro-mage set explain why mages deserve preferential treatment.  It's just assumed in every proposal that mages deserve to be treated better than every other non-noble in the world.

 

They is speshuuuul...

 

And you won't ever be seeing it because they'll quickly deviate from it and start reminding you why the templars are evil and how much the mages suffer.

[QueenCrow]

Eh.  You need to distinguish between isolationism and separatism.

 

There have been arguments made that one of the common points for successful states (such as most of Europe, and Asia) vis-a-vis failed states is the degree of identity-homogeneity within the borders. Ethnic homogeneity ('the Germans,' 'the Koreans'), religious homogeneity, cultural homogeneity- whatever people most identify with and by, it should be overwhelmingly dominant, with the 'other' relegated to outside the borders and overwhelmingly dominant within its own area.

 

The commonly raised examples of when this doesn't happen is the Colonial-legacy map borders for Africa and the Middle East, which frequently don't have the sort of ethnic/cultural homogeneity within their borders that many ethnic-identity states take for granted.

 

With the distinction made, how would you define a Dragon Age alienage? 

[Addai]

Actually, that would work fine for me.  I wrote a lengthy reply advocating exactly that, once, as a hypothetical solution.  I'm not even remotely convinced that magic is a positive force in Thedas, or that most of the time the world wouldn't be better off without it.

 

I'm all for completely removing mages to their own area and letting them Isle of Dr. Moreau themselves into abominations all day, just as long as nothing tries to get in or out of the enclave.

It appears that magic was once part of life and that the world is returning to that state, where everyone has magic. So, maybe get used to disappointment? Solas suggests that it's the separation of the physical from the magical realms that causes the problems, not magic itself. Kieran likewise seems to consider existence without magic to be terrible, like being blind. So personally I see the mundanes as being the oddballs.

 

Isolationism has always seemed like the worst solution to me. Few things foster enmity more effectively than segregation.

Not if you're the party who is given no other choice except to be exploited.

[TK514]

It appears that magic was once part of life and that the world is returning to that state, where everyone has magic. So, maybe get used to disappointment? Solas suggests that it's the separation of the physical from the magical realms that causes the problems, not magic itself. Kieran likewise seems to consider existence without magic to be terrible, like being blind. So personally I see the mundanes as being the oddballs.

 

Not if you're the party who is given no other choice except to be exploited.

 

Sometimes I wonder if you realize it's just a game.

[Lumix19]

I've never really seen any of the BSN pro-mage set explain why mages deserve preferential treatment.  It's just assumed in every proposal that mages deserve to be treated better than every other non-noble in the world.

What do you mean by preferential treatment? If you mean not forced to go through the Harrowing or being watched by Templars all the time then I don't see that as preferential treatment. Perhaps you mean the education and living accommodations? Probably not since those are paid for by the Formari.

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

They is speshuuuul...

And you won't ever be seeing it because they'll quickly deviate from it and start reminding you why the templars are evil and how much the mages suffer.

With comments like these, no wonder people don't like arguing with you people.

[TK514]

What do you mean by preferential treatment? If you mean not forced to go through the Harrowing or being watched by Templars all the time then I don't see that as preferential treatment. Perhaps you mean the education and living accommodations? Probably not since those are paid for by the Formari.

 

The latter.  It's just assumed that they should be given the best education and facilities money can buy, yet no real explanation of why that should be the case, or how it is going to get paid for.

 

One of the arguments I see come up is how there are obviously plenty of hedge wizards out there, and whole societies who treat their mages with respect and dalish and chasind and Divine Leliana and so on and so forth, yet the world isn't an abomination infested hell, so Circles aren't needed.  Well, if hedge wizard training is all that's necessary, then send the mages home.  Let them get their hedge wizard training from the local guy living in a log, and till fields and midwife babies and live normal lives according to whatever people do where they're born, while making the occasional poultice or love charm.  No expensive facilities or education necessary.  Divine Schmooples' ending tells us that everything is puppies and rainbows and everyone loves mages now, so they should be able to live normal lives at home just as easily as anywhere else.

 

The other major platform is "No more Tranquil!  OMG, so inhumane, you monsters, and anyone who willingly accepts it is just brainwashed and self-loathing etc".  Ok, great.  No more Tranquil.  Where is the College of Enchanters going to get their enchanted equipment?  The only source for all that apparently necessary magical paraphernalia is going to be the dwarves, who aren't just going to give it away.  With no more free lyrium handouts from the Chantry, how is the College going to afford it?  How are those expensive libraries going to be funded?  For that matter, how are the non-magical luxury goods, like paper, going to be purchased?  All this money has to come from somewhere, and the College severed it's primary sources of income while adding the cost of procuring the most expensive substances in the world for their use.  Where are they even going to get the seed money just to get started again?  I doubt they were smuggling out entire libraries and Circle treasuries while fleeing for their lives to Redcliffe, and all their old facilities belong to the Chantry.

 

So why does the assumption seem to be that the mages deserve all these expensive resources and facilities, as though they should reap all the benefits of their former lives without assuming any of the hardships they were previously sheltered from?  The Chantry certainly has no reason to keep funding them.  And anyone else who can afford to help out with the expense, like the nobility, is going to demand some fairly serious concessions for their investment.

[TK514]

With comments like these, no wonder people don't like arguing with you people.

 

Amusing double standard.  You call out one side for a snide remark, but let the other go unremarked.

[Lady Artifice]

Eh.  You need to distinguish between isolationism and separatism.

 

There have been arguments made that one of the common points for successful states (such as most of Europe, and Asia) vis-a-vis failed states is the degree of identity-homogeneity within the borders. Ethnic homogeneity ('the Germans,' 'the Koreans'), religious homogeneity, cultural homogeneity- whatever people most identify with and by, it should be overwhelmingly dominant, with the 'other' relegated to outside the borders and overwhelmingly dominant within its own area.

 

The commonly raised examples of when this doesn't happen is the Colonial-legacy map borders for Africa and the Middle East, which frequently don't have the sort of ethnic/cultural homogeneity within their borders that many ethnic-identity states take for granted.

 

Well, I would hesitate to compare national homogeneity to the homogeneity of a minority appearing in almost every culture in the world (Thedas). After all, what culture could be worth retaining in this possible solution? That of dreary little Mage prisons? And then what happens when there’s a war and the current leadership is like, “Hey, we need you now so come here and help with this real quick.” Best case scenario I can imagine in that event would be that the Mages agree, and are sudden thrust amongst non-Mages who fear and distrust them, get to fight and die for a cause they have little reason to feel attachment to, and maybe some return to a flawed status quo afterward. 

 

There’s no progress, no development, and no practical benefit to anyone. It’s just the avoidance of problems that will probably spring up anyway when there will be even less awareness and understanding of how to deal with them.

 

I've never really seen any of the BSN pro-mage set explain why mages deserve preferential treatment.  It's just assumed in every proposal that mages deserve to be treated better than every other non-noble in the world.

 

 

This is an interesting thing to note. I would suggest that there tends to be some obstinacy on both sides of this debate, and the arguments themselves tend to devolve into unfortunate personal attacks often and quickly. While I do think that Mages should receive preferential treatment to a point, it's mostly the variety of "preference" warranted by necessity. Wynne, Evangeline, and Vivienne have all pointed out the dangers of a Mage, child or adult, being out in the world without the protection of the Templars. Wynne was nearly a victim of such an attack when she was a child, and we’ve seen the dangers ourselves just outside of Crestwood: An idealistic circle mage who couldn’t bear to leave the people there behind to face the dangers of the undead. So, she swore to approach them and offer her help. We find her run through on the ground and left there. That might have been an undead attack, but it probably wasn’t. 

 

Thus far, we have an established need for Templars to serve as the protectors of Mages. At the risk of making too overt a connection to historically real world issues, I’d compare that to Ruby Bridges and the other young African American children who first attended white elementary schools in the U.S. needing to be escorted by U.S. Marshalls, while protesting white parents offered them death threats. Prejudice fosters hideous things from people you wouldn’t otherwise expect it from.

 

I think the most important thing to focus on is what nature that protector/protected relationship should be like (by which I mean what would be the most effective and least combative). I would suggest that the circle system prior to the Mage/Templar war didn’t just subjugate Mages, but Templars as well.

 

Regarding Mages, specifically: 

 

The trouble here is that how restrictive the circle system generally is has varied, not just from one circle to another, but also depending on the writer and the specific needs of the plot. Whether they have full freedom of contact with their families or the option to leave the circle and have families of their own is treated inconsistently, so supporters of the Circle system can focus on the positive representations and detractors can focus on the negative ones, and no one bothers to try to find common ground or look at the whole picture. 

 

I’ll instead just focus on what I consider to be the most egregious aspects of the system: The Harrowing and the ritual of “Tranquility.” Both are born of blind Andrastian fervor, and the application of both should be completely altered.

 

Regarding the relationship between Templars and Mages:

 

It’s all a mess. Separatism is enforced so that it’s easier for Templars to kill Mages should the need arise. The problems that will cause between two groups in close proximity should be self evident. For a chance at an improvement, there would need to be a greater sense of cooperation fostered between both sides. 

 

Regarding the relationship between Mages and the rest of the world:

 

Mages need to be more integrated into Andrastian society. They need to see past their gilded cages into the world, and into the lives of people who arguably have it worse than they do, like elves in the alienage and the very, very poor who can’t be sure of their next meal, let alone some kind of education or improvement of their circumstances. More importantly, they need to be seen and interacted with. The more the people of Thedas see them as people, the better.

 

 

Not if you're the party who is given no other choice except to be exploited.

 

I understand the appeal of the idea, and the frustration of a circle mage who is shunned until their power might help win a war, but it's a shortsighted solution. Understanding and cooperation go a lot further to helping with mutual tolerance than making what already seemed foreign more so. 

[PsychoBlonde]

 

The second camp hates her because she is a complete moron in DAI (which is also the reason why the term Mary Sue is used less often when talking about her than it used to be). She started a war against the templars with absolutely no plan on how to make the rebellion work beyond, "We deserve freedom." By dumb luck her people manage to get positioned in the most defensible city in the South thanks to the mercy of the Fereldan monarch. However the moment she hears (false) rumors that the templars are marching on Redcliffe her solution is not to plan with the ARL on how to best protect the village, but to betray his trust, ally with a foreign power that is incapable of assisting in the hypothetical situation she fears, and institute a rebellion. And to top it off, in the process she sells her people into slavery unknowingly. Then when she realizes that she is dealing with Darth Vader, her response is to whimper like a kicked puppy rather than trying to do anything about it. Hell she doesn't even help save the mages in their quest. And no, time travel magic does not excuse any of these incompetencies. In DAI she is an incompetent leader and does more to hurt the cause of mage freedom than even the templars by showing that yes the mages will side with the evil empire if freed from the watchful eye of the templars.

 

So, you're assuming that Fiona does all of this of her own free will?  Kind of a big assumption to make considering that she's up against a Tevinter cult that cheerfully practices blood magic at many times during the game.  Mind-control magic is supposed to be so subtle that often even the person being influenced by it doesn't know.  They either had a demon impersonate her in Val Royeaux or she went there under mind control and subsequently forgot what happened, too.  So I'd say calling Fiona "responsible" for all this may be over-the-top.  EVERYONE went crazy in this game--mages, seekers, templars, grey wardens, you name it.  Making people crazy is pretty much Corypheus' best trick.

[LOLandStuff]

There was no hint of blood magic being used. That's just a poor excuse people use to defend her bad decisions.

She shows no sign of being mind controlled, not even after returning from the future or Skyhold.

She's a bad leader who doesn't think things trough and acts on impulse. The sad part is that she doesn't even try to own up to her mistakes and still plays the victim.

[Ranadiel Marius]

So, you're assuming that Fiona does all of this of her own free will? Kind of a big assumption to make considering that she's up against a Tevinter cult that cheerfully practices blood magic at many times during the game. Mind-control magic is supposed to be so subtle that often even the person being influenced by it doesn't know. They either had a demon impersonate her in Val Royeaux or she went there under mind control and subsequently forgot what happened, too. So I'd say calling Fiona "responsible" for all this may be over-the-top. EVERYONE went crazy in this game--mages, seekers, templars, grey wardens, you name it. Making people crazy is pretty much Corypheus' best trick.

The Fiona in VR was Fiona prior to the timeline shift with completely bs effects. Alexius doesn't appear to be a blood mage (remember that he is Dorian's master). There is nothing in the game which directly states she was mind controlled, she never makes the claim, and I see nothing implying otherwise. She made the choice and she is responsible for its idiocy.

[Addai]

Sometimes I wonder if you realize it's just a game.

Naturally. Do you want to discuss the topic or psychoanalyze?

 

 

I understand the appeal of the idea, and the frustration of a circle mage who is shunned until their power might help win a war, but it's a shortsighted solution. Understanding and cooperation go a lot further to helping with mutual tolerance than making what already seemed foreign more so. 

 

There is no medium solution and nothing will ever change until southern Thedas goes through a major ideological shift. That might be starting now, but you don't erase centuries of Chantry indoctrination overnight.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I’ll instead just focus on what I consider to be the most egregious aspects of the system: The Harrowing and the ritual of “Tranquility.” Both are born of blind Andrastian fervor, and the application of both should be completely altered.

Those both have actual public safety applications: the Harrowing is meant to provide evidence that the mage is not completely helpless against demons, and Tranquility is meant to make it harder for demons to find targets who otherwise wouldn't have the power to resist them. I don't think it's fair to say that either was born out of "blind Andrastian fervor," even if Alrik's abuse of Tranquility is disguised as being motivated by such.

[Lady Artifice]

There is no medium solution and nothing will ever change until southern Thedas goes through a major ideological shift. That might be starting now, but you don't erase centuries of Chantry indoctrination overnight.

 

True, but how could a major idealogical shift ever occur if the Mages were way over them, like some alien boogeymen on the other side of some border? The unknown is scary, so what would making them more unknown do besides also making them even scarier? 

 

And vice versa, really. I'd imagine all Mages raised in this completely separate society would probably expect every non mage to be hostile and barbaric. 

 

Those both have actual public safety applications: the Harrowing is meant to provide evidence that the mage is not completely helpless against demons, and Tranquility is meant to make it harder for demons to find targets who otherwise wouldn't have the power to resist them. I don't think it's fair to say that either was born out of "blind Andrastian fervor," even if Alrik's abuse of Tranquility is disguised as being motivated by such.

 

The wording of my accusation has more to do with the trappings and particulars of those rituals than their goals. Testing a Mage's skill at resisting demons before releasing that Mage into society is reasonable, but the secrecy and the level of preparedness for the ritual is ludicrous. "If they can resist a demon under these conditions, then they can always resist." That's their logic, and it's stupid logic. It's like giving a teenager car keys for the first time after they've studied on paper and passed the written driving test, saying, "Ok, get out on the freeway. If you can not kill or be killed now, you should be good."

 

The Fade is unpredictable. The Templars can't be certain what type of Demons or Spirits the apprentice might encounter. They just throw them in, poorly prepared, thinking it's all the same.

 

The blind Andrastian fervor I mentioned has more to do with the common and total distrust of fade entities of every kind, and the black and white perceptions of the chantry and their Templars regarding demonic possession. We know, thanks to Connor, that it's possible to cure demonic possession. I know it's not easy, and that it's not an exact science, but it's possible. That means it's worth trying to research, to learn more and try harder to have a system in place that treats any potential case of demonic possession as an individual case and not just a death sentence. 

 

 

 

I should mention that I don't actually want extreme solutions implemented into the lore. I want Thedas to be a place where grim and unpleasant things can happen because it's a story where those things need to happen for it to be an interesting story. The above is all an argument within the context of the setting.

[Xilizhra]

Why?

 

Well, besides that you favor the 1% oligarchy you sympathize with more than the 99% majority that would be the master of any remotely representative civil society.

Which is why pure majority rule doesn't work without protection for minorities.

 

 

I've never really seen any of the BSN pro-mage set explain why mages deserve preferential treatment.  It's just assumed in every proposal that mages deserve to be treated better than every other non-noble in the world.

Because my standards are set to what I prefer would be the case for all, not the standards of Thedas' terrible government in general. Almost every demographic deserves improvements in its living, but only one, the mages, has actually been able to push for it via force of arms (although Briala's city elves may well be the second to do so, and I'm quite happy to aid them as well).

 

The latter.  It's just assumed that they should be given the best education and facilities money can buy, yet no real explanation of why that should be the case, or how it is going to get paid for.

 

One of the arguments I see come up is how there are obviously plenty of hedge wizards out there, and whole societies who treat their mages with respect and dalish and chasind and Divine Leliana and so on and so forth, yet the world isn't an abomination infested hell, so Circles aren't needed.  Well, if hedge wizard training is all that's necessary, then send the mages home.  Let them get their hedge wizard training from the local guy living in a log, and till fields and midwife babies and live normal lives according to whatever people do where they're born, while making the occasional poultice or love charm.  No expensive facilities or education necessary.  Divine Schmooples' ending tells us that everything is puppies and rainbows and everyone loves mages now, so they should be able to live normal lives at home just as easily as anywhere else.

 

The other major platform is "No more Tranquil!  OMG, so inhumane, you monsters, and anyone who willingly accepts it is just brainwashed and self-loathing etc".  Ok, great.  No more Tranquil.  Where is the College of Enchanters going to get their enchanted equipment?  The only source for all that apparently necessary magical paraphernalia is going to be the dwarves, who aren't just going to give it away.  With no more free lyrium handouts from the Chantry, how is the College going to afford it?  How are those expensive libraries going to be funded?  For that matter, how are the non-magical luxury goods, like paper, going to be purchased?  All this money has to come from somewhere, and the College severed it's primary sources of income while adding the cost of procuring the most expensive substances in the world for their use.  Where are they even going to get the seed money just to get started again?  I doubt they were smuggling out entire libraries and Circle treasuries while fleeing for their lives to Redcliffe, and all their old facilities belong to the Chantry.

 

So why does the assumption seem to be that the mages deserve all these expensive resources and facilities, as though they should reap all the benefits of their former lives without assuming any of the hardships they were previously sheltered from?  The Chantry certainly has no reason to keep funding them.  And anyone else who can afford to help out with the expense, like the nobility, is going to demand some fairly serious concessions for their investment.

For finances, the Inquisition and Chantry (given that if the mages are freed, Leliana would still be allied with them) would work for both seed money and possible continued income; I've advocated several times to actively recruit Orzammar's casteless dwarves for enchantment work on the surface. For training... well, I never argued that hedge magery was adequate in and of itself.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

True, but how could a major idealogical shift ever occur if the Mages were way over them, like some alien boogeymen on the other side of some border? The unknown is scary, so what would making them more unknown do besides also making them even scarier? 

 

And vice versa, really. I'd imagine all Mages raised in this completely separate society would probably expect every non mage to be hostile and barbaric. 

 

 

The wording of my accusation has more to do with the trappings and particulars of those rituals than their goals. Testing a Mage's skill at resisting demons before releasing that Mage into society is reasonable, but the secrecy and the level of preparedness for the ritual is ludicrous. "If they can resist a demon under these conditions, then they can always resist." That's their logic, and it's stupid logic. It's like giving a teenager car keys for the first time after they've studied on paper and passed the written driving test, saying, "Ok, get out on the freeway. If you can not kill or be killed now, you should be good."

 

The Fade is unpredictable. The Templars can't be certain what type of Demons or Spirits the apprentice might encounter. They just throw them in, poorly prepared, thinking it's all the same.

 

The blind Andrastian fervor I mentioned has more to do with the common and total distrust of fade entities of every kind, and the black and white perceptions of the chantry and their Templars regarding demonic possession. We know, thanks to Connor, that it's possible to cure demonic possession. I know it's not easy, and that it's not an exact science, but it's possible. That means it's worth trying to research, to learn more and try harder to have a system in place that treats any potential case of demonic possession as an individual case and not just a death sentence. 

 

 

 

I should mention that I don't actually want extreme solutions implemented into the lore. I want Thedas to be a place where grim and unpleasant things can happen because it's a story where those things need to happen for it to be an interesting story. The above is all an argument within the context of the setting.

Better preparation is a good idea, but other than that I think the Ritual is at least decent evidence that the mage is relatively safe. As for the distrust of spirits in general, not just demons, that's actually wise. Spirits are dangerous. The demons are malevolent, and spirits aren't always much less so.