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[TK514]

Which is why pure majority rule doesn't work without protection for minorities.

 

 

Because my standards are set to what I prefer would be the case for all, not the standards of Thedas' terrible government in general. Almost every demographic deserves improvements in its living, but only one, the mages, has actually been able to push for it via force of arms (although Briala's city elves may well be the second to do so, and I'm quite happy to aid them as well).

 

For finances, the Inquisition and Chantry (given that if the mages are freed, Leliana would still be allied with them) would work for both seed money and possible continued income; I've advocated several times to actively recruit Orzammar's casteless dwarves for enchantment work on the surface. For training... well, I never argued that hedge magery was adequate in and of itself.

 

Why would the Chantry, even under Lels, continue to fund an organization that started a war to prove how much they didn't want anything to do with the Chantry?  "We support your rights to self-determination and self-governance" is very, very different from "We are going to keep paying some or all of your bills".  The two could actually be interpreted as mutually exclusive, in fact.  If the mages want to run themselves, then they have to stand on their own.

 

As for the Inquisition, where would they be getting the funding to support themselves, much less make charitable contributions to an organization as expensive and self-absorbed as the College of Enchanters?  Troops, even former Templars, don't work for free.  Arms, Equipment, and crops don't grow in ice fields.  Fortresses on other people's land don't pay rent and upkeep for themselves.  The Inquisition has no territory to call its own except maybe Skyhold, and that's assuming that whichever nation owns that spot in the Frostbacks is willing to sell/give it away.  They can't levy taxes, they don't produce anything for export, and basically have less to offer by way of income than even a nascent College of Enchanters.  As a massive charity case themselves, completely at the mercy and whim of sympathetic rulers for their very existence, the only way they are in a position to 'support' mages is if the mages were conscripted.  Then, at least, the Inquisition could allocated some portion of whatever charity they get for upkeep to their version of a mage collective.

 

I hit 'post' too soon.

 

The casteless idea is a good one, provided you can convince them to leave Orzammar, have someone who can train them, and have some way to pay them for their work.  They still aren't going to be cheap.  The Tranquil worked for room and board, and had no ambitions.  Dwarves, even casteless ones, won't do that.

[Xilizhra]

Why would the Chantry, even under Lels, continue to fund an organization that started a war to prove how much they didn't want anything to do with the Chantry?  "We support your rights to self-determination and self-governance" is very, very different from "We are going to keep paying some or all of your bills".  The two could actually be interpreted as mutually exclusive, in fact.  If the mages want to run themselves, then they have to stand on their own.

 

As for the Inquisition, where would they be getting the funding to support themselves, much less make charitable contributions to an organization as expensive and self-absorbed as the College of Enchanters?  Troops, even former Templars, don't work for free.  Arms, Equipment, and crops don't grow in ice fields.  Fortresses on other people's land don't pay rent and upkeep for themselves.  The Inquisition has no territory to call its own except maybe Skyhold, and that's assuming that whichever nation owns that spot in the Frostbacks is willing to sell/give it away.  They can't levy taxes, they don't produce anything for export, and basically have less to offer by way of income than even a nascent College of Enchanters.  As a massive charity case themselves, completely at the mercy and whim of sympathetic rulers for their very existence, the only way they are in a position to 'support' mages is if the mages were conscripted.  Then, at least, the Inquisition could allocated some portion of whatever charity they get for upkeep to their version of a mage collective.

 

I hit 'post' too soon.

 

The casteless idea is a good one, provided you can convince them to leave Orzammar, have someone who can train them, and have some way to pay them for their work.  They still aren't going to be cheap.  The Tranquil worked for room and board, and had no ambitions.  Dwarves, even casteless ones, won't do that.

See, I could go into possible solutions for this... but then I remember that there's no point in doing so, because if Bioware clearly didn't think about this, why should we? Evidently there's a way to do it that's sustainable enough for Leliana and the College to go ahead with it, even if we didn't get the details on it; the fact that the independent College exists at all clearly implies that they got their seed money and have some kind of plan for continuing on.

[TK514]

See, I could go into possible solutions for this... but then I remember that there's no point in doing so, because if Bioware clearly didn't think about this, why should we? Evidently there's a way to do it that's sustainable enough for Leliana and the College to go ahead with it, even if we didn't get the details on it; the fact that the independent College exists at all clearly implies that they got their seed money and have some kind of plan for continuing on.

 

Why not discuss it?  It's not like we're doing much else on these forums at the moment.

[Xilizhra]

Why not discuss it?  It's not like we're doing much else on these forums at the moment.

I don't think they actually exist in-game, because I don't think Bioware detailed Thedas' economy, because... well, most people aren't interested in that. Whatever they are, they exist, but they're wholly undefined. It's a case of "not enough information to solve this problem" for us watching it from the outside.

 

I would, however, think that College of Enchanters must diversify, and moreover, it must do so cleverly; were I in charge of its economic planning, I would try to take over as much of the supply trade to Orzammar as possible. If magic is useful to aid in farming, that could be huge, because if the College was able to possess enough farmland and produce a sufficient surplus of food, they could try to become Orzammar's primary supply pipeline for its essentials, and if that was the case, it could become as secure a trading partner for Orzammar as Tevinter is for Kal-Sharok. It would keep the lyrium flow steady and probably bolster the number of non-Tranquil enchanters working with the College; hell, they might even start to form surface dwarf communities akin to the ones in Tevinter.

[Lady Artifice]

Better preparation is a good idea, but other than that I think the Ritual is at least decent evidence that the mage is relatively safe. As for the distrust of spirits in general, not just demons, that's actually wise. Spirits are dangerous. The demons are malevolent, and spirits aren't always much less so.

 

I don't think there's anyone wrong with being wary of Spirits, but Chantry perspective on the Fade and its denizens is too limited and one dimensional to inform arcane research very much, and arcane research is most likely the key to potentially eliminating the need for the atrocities that are the harrowing and the rite of tranquility. 

 

I'm not accusing the Chantry of not reaching a reasonable conclusion based on what they knew and believed, but what they know is a very rigid ideology. They think the harrowing and tranquillity are necessary because they don't think there's an alternative, and public prejudice and fear of Mages and magic itself has essentially eliminated the chance of anyone earnestly trying to search for alternatives. Mages are just treated as though their lives matter less.

 

Also, as unnerving as the Tranquil can be, people are inclined to take for granted the idea that it is actually a peaceful state of being. We, the audience, have access to the information that its a nightmarish existence. Karl and Pharamond would both rather die than return to a state of "tranquility." The fact that the Tranquil provide such useful free labor probably doesn't help that much, either. 

 

The state of things as they are, nothing's being improved, nothing's advancing. They just stick with what they perceive as tried and true, and hide or cut away what doesn't fit their mold for how things should be.  

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I don't think there's anyone wrong with being wary of Spirits, but Chantry perspective on the Fade and its denizens is too limited and one dimensional to inform arcane research very much, and arcane research is most likely the key to potentially eliminating the need for the atrocities that are the harrowing and the rite of tranquility. 

 

I'm not accusing the Chantry of not reaching a reasonable conclusion based on what they knew and believed, but what they know is a very rigid ideology. They think the harrowing and tranquillity are necessary because they don't think there's an alternative, and public prejudice and fear of Mages and magic itself has essentially eliminated the chance of anyone earnestly trying to search for alternatives. Mages are just treated as though their lives matter less.

 

Also, as unnerving as the Tranquil can be, people are inclined to take for granted the idea that it is actually a peaceful state of being. We, the audience, have access to the information that its a nightmarish existence. Karl and Pharamond would both rather die than return to a state of "tranquility." The fact that the Tranquil provide such useful free labor probably doesn't help that much, either. 

 

The state of things as they are, nothing's being improved, nothing's advancing. They just stick with what they perceive as tried and true, and hide or cut away what doesn't fit their mold for how things should be.  

I was rather under the impression that Karl and Pharamond only really cared after Tranquility was undone.

 

As for simply using what they already know and not allowing advancement, I will note that Justinia was doing research on Tranquility to try and understand better what was going on. Had the Seekers helped her, she might have managed to find a way to make mages immune to possession using temporary Tranquility. I think I agree with you that that research needs to be kept going, but until and unless that exploit completely solves the problem, the Harrowing and permanent Tranquility are necessary.

[TK514]

I don't think they actually exist in-game, because I don't think Bioware detailed Thedas' economy, because... well, most people aren't interested in that. Whatever they are, they exist, but they're wholly undefined. It's a case of "not enough information to solve this problem" for us watching it from the outside.

 

I would, however, think that College of Enchanters must diversify, and moreover, it must do so cleverly; were I in charge of its economic planning, I would try to take over as much of the supply trade to Orzammar as possible. If magic is useful to aid in farming, that could be huge, because if the College was able to possess enough farmland and produce a sufficient surplus of food, they could try to become Orzammar's primary supply pipeline for its essentials, and if that was the case, it could become as secure a trading partner for Orzammar as Tevinter is for Kal-Sharok. It would keep the lyrium flow steady and probably bolster the number of non-Tranquil enchanters working with the College; hell, they might even start to form surface dwarf communities akin to the ones in Tevinter.

 

This is why I wanted to discuss it.  It's an interesting 'what if'.  Thank you.  I'll edit this with some thoughts on the other side of sleep.

[themageguy]

I don't hate her, i just wish she was more involved like Ser Barris is. He does missions, and you can promote him to knight commander. Which for me feels alot more involved, especially for my loyalist circle knight enchanter inquisitor.

[Dean_the_Young]

With the distinction made, how would you define a Dragon Age alienage? 

 

A segregated community within the country, neither isolationist (refusing to work with humans) or secessionist (creating their own identity-polity).

[Dean_the_Young]

Which is why pure majority rule doesn't work without protection for minorities.

 

 

Which would be relevant and convincing if you didn't just argue for a 1% oligarchy on the basis of 'well, corruption is inevitable.' You weren't arguing on the basis of ending kicks- you were arguing that it might as well be your favored people kicking down, even if it meant more rather than fewer people were being served injustice.

 

That argument offers no rational reason as to how it somehow offers protection for minorities in principal, as opposed to the self-interested for one empowered minority in particular, and actively suppresses the protections for majorities (which, again, will always be the dominant concern in any remotely progressive and representative society).

[Xilizhra]

Which would be relevant and convincing if you didn't just argue for a 1% oligarchy on the basis of 'well, corruption is inevitable.' You weren't arguing on the basis of ending kicks- you were arguing that it might as well be your favored people kicking down, even if it meant more rather than fewer people were being served injustice.

 

That argument offers no rational reason as to how it somehow offers protection for minorities in principal, as opposed to the self-interested for one empowered minority in particular, and actively suppresses the protections for majorities (which, again, will always be the dominant concern in any remotely progressive and representative society).

Why do you think that magocracy is inevitable? Because I wasn't saying it was preferable, I was only saying that it wasn't worse than the oligarchies that exist already.

 

In any case, both mages and mundanes are under threat from abominations, so would equally benefit from the same protection.

[Lumix19]

On the topic of Mage funding: I thought I'd point out that not every Tranquil wants to reverse Tranquility. In that way the Formari may still survive, though presumably they will be reduced in number.

[Dean_the_Young]

Why do you think that magocracy is inevitable?

 

 

We have just been talking about your scenario in which Mages are in charge of their own oversight and are dominant over their own control in a system in which mundanes are expected to subsidize them and prioritize their interests over the majority.

 

Arguing about the likelihood of uneven power relationships is irrelevant when you've already drawn a scenario in which there is one.

 

Because I wasn't saying it was preferable,

 

You were (by rejecting any alternative to oversight being sworn to the mages), and have.

 

 

I was only saying that it wasn't worse than the oligarchies that exist already.

 

 

All other things equal (which is what your equivalence of abuse presumed), an oligarchy of a minority on top of the majority is worse than an oligarchy from the majority on top focused on a minority by simple proportions of how many people are subject to the abuses.

 

If fewer people do bad things to more people, this is worse than when more people do bad things to fewer people because more people are hurt in the first than the second.
 

 

In any case, both mages and mundanes are under threat from abominations, so would equally benefit from the same protection.

 

 

They wouldn't. The manner of protection is intrinsically tied to who benefits the most, as is the difference in threats based on proximity.

[In Exile]

I don't think they actually exist in-game, because I don't think Bioware detailed Thedas' economy, because... well, most people aren't interested in that. Whatever they are, they exist, but they're wholly undefined. It's a case of "not enough information to solve this problem" for us watching it from the outside.

 

I would, however, think that College of Enchanters must diversify, and moreover, it must do so cleverly; were I in charge of its economic planning, I would try to take over as much of the supply trade to Orzammar as possible. If magic is useful to aid in farming, that could be huge, because if the College was able to possess enough farmland and produce a sufficient surplus of food, they could try to become Orzammar's primary supply pipeline for its essentials, and if that was the case, it could become as secure a trading partner for Orzammar as Tevinter is for Kal-Sharok. It would keep the lyrium flow steady and probably bolster the number of non-Tranquil enchanters working with the College; hell, they might even start to form surface dwarf communities akin to the ones in Tevinter.

 

How would be mages get the land? This is a medieval system. For them to have a claim to land would make them effectively nobility. Not even the Inquisition truly has land, despite their military holdings in different regions of Thedas. The monarchies of Thedas would be resistant to this idea precisely because of the economic power that attaches to productive land in their fuedal economy.

 

It's difficult to see how mages could integrate themselves into the Thedosian economy beyond finding a way to continue their work as skilled craftspeople.

[Drasanil]

I don't know I think the best solution to mage question is really to try and get the circle system and the templars working as intended. Which could be done rather well with a few policy changes rather than tearing down everything and trying again from scratch.

 

1) Let mages join the seekers. If mages are also part of the oversight body along with mundies, the one is that demon and blood magic proof, that's a net benefit. It gives the enforcement arm proven magical capability of their own which they can rely on, and will foster less abusive attitudes as the templars would know they couldn't count on the seekers siding with them 99% of the time. 

 

2) Mage release program. We already know they exist to some extent, like Shale's previous owner, grey warden mages, Vivienne's circle and perhaps most significantly Knight Enchanters a group of mages trusted enough to be part of the Divine's entourage and run operations of their own with out supervision. Why not expand it? Mages that pass their harrowing, and don't show aberrant tendencies in their behaviour should be offered the opportunity for additional training so they can take up roles in mundie society. Knight Enchanters already have that, but you could expand it to spirit healers as well, allowing them to set up clinic in villages or town chantry districts where their would normally be enough templars there enough to provide security should things start going pear shaped.  

[DarkKnightHolmes]

I came here to read Fiona bashing, not read about Chantry and mages!

[katling73]

How would be mages get the land? This is a medieval system. For them to have a claim to land would make them effectively nobility. Not even the Inquisition truly has land, despite their military holdings in different regions of Thedas. The monarchies of Thedas would be resistant to this idea precisely because of the economic power that attaches to productive land in their fuedal economy.

 

It's difficult to see how mages could integrate themselves into the Thedosian economy beyond finding a way to continue their work as skilled craftspeople.

 

And to add to this, before the mages could even begin to think about becoming a primary trading partner, they'd have to prove that they would be a stable and trustworthy trading partner in the first place. Remember, dwarves don't trust surfacers. They look down on them. They might welcome and honour individual surface dwellers but as a whole, they don't like or trust surface people. They're not going to care about the mages' problems or give two hoots about the intentions of the Mage Collegium. Their only concern is are you going to pay/provide your goods on time and in full. And presuming they do a bit of a background check on the mages, well, it's going to be a long time before the mages come off probationary status as trading partners. They're not the most reliable of people, especially with Fiona in charge.

 

And going back to how the Collegium would get land and money to establish itself, Fiona has actually made that more difficult by her betrayal of Arl Teagan and the Fereldan monarch, irrespective of the reasons behind it. She's set a precedent. Any sensible noble, when asked for money and/or land, would first ask "How do I know you won't betray me like you did Arl Teagan and King Alistair/Queen Anora?" And why would they trust any answer Fiona gave them? She has set a precedent of being treasonous. I know if I were a mage-sympathising noble, I might still be inclined to give them money but it'd be hedged in all sorts of conditions first. The major one being a new leader for the mages. I just don't see how any noble could trust the mages with Fiona in charge. If the mages were willing to set Fiona aside as a leader and install someone who could garner more trust, they might have half a chance.

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

I don't hate her, i just wish she was more involved like Ser Barris is. He does missions, and you can promote him to knight commander. Which for me feels alot more involved, especially for my loyalist circle knight enchanter inquisitor.

If only she's the type of person who doesn't sit her ass in Skyhold, and if only she's leading her compatriots to help the Inquisition fight Corypheus's forces to redeem the mage's reputation to prove that mages and mundane can coexist, and mages can do good for this world, alas she's the type who would sit her ass in Skyhold and complain when things doesn't go her way.

[MoonDrummer]

I liked Fiona in the books, the Fiona in the game seems like a completely different person though. 

 

Book Fiona- Hates slavery and nobles. Game Fiona- Sells entire army to a Magister

Book Fiona- Refuses to work work a Darkspawn mage Game Fiona- Helps a Darkspawn mage attack Haven

 

I think someone killed her and stole her skin. Its the only explanation. 

[Xilizhra]

We have just been talking about your scenario in which Mages are in charge of their own oversight and are dominant over their own control in a system in which mundanes are expected to subsidize them and prioritize their interests over the majority.

Subsidization will only last as long as it takes to counteract the effects of mundanes keeping mages in bondage for nearly a thousand years.

 

 

How would be mages get the land? This is a medieval system. For them to have a claim to land would make them effectively nobility. Not even the Inquisition truly has land, despite their military holdings in different regions of Thedas. The monarchies of Thedas would be resistant to this idea precisely because of the economic power that attaches to productive land in their fuedal economy.

 

It's difficult to see how mages could integrate themselves into the Thedosian economy beyond finding a way to continue their work as skilled craftspeople.

That makes them too dependent on the terrible monarchies in power and would lead to magical arms races and the like in the future, with the College under the thumb of national governments. I don't consider this a desirable future at all, and would work to keep it as independent as possible.

 

 

If only she's the type of person who doesn't sit her ass in Skyhold, and if only she's leading her compatriots to help the Inquisition fight Corypheus's forces to redeem the mage's reputation to prove that mages and mundane can coexist, and mages can do good for this world, alas she's the type who would sit her ass in Skyhold and complain when things doesn't go her way.

She does just that, in the Arbor Wilds.

[In Exile]

That makes them too dependent on the terrible monarchies in power and would lead to magical arms races and the like in the future, with the College under the thumb of national governments. I don't consider this a desirable future at all, and would work to keep it as independent as possible.

 

That's the problem with the feudal system as a whole. But it isn't clear how this could change without a wholesale political upheaval.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

That makes them too dependent on the terrible monarchies in power and would lead to magical arms races and the like in the future, with the College under the thumb of national governments. I don't consider this a desirable future at all, and would work to keep it as independent as possible.

I completely agree with you that the national governments in place in Thedas cannot be trusted to directly control the mages.

[themageguy]

If only she's the type of person who doesn't sit her ass in Skyhold, and if only she's leading her compatriots to help the Inquisition fight Corypheus's forces to redeem the mage's reputation to prove that mages and mundane can coexist, and mages can do good for this world, alas she's the type who would sit her ass in Skyhold and complain when things doesn't go her way.

A battle hardened former grey warden....so much potential wasted.

[Dean_the_Young]

Subsidization will only last as long as it takes to counteract the effects of mundanes keeping mages in bondage for nearly a thousand years.

 

And the mages will counteract the many more thousands of years of far more oppressive and exploitative bondage that mundanes were kept in by... continuing to live a quality of life virtually unmatched outside the nobility, at taxpayer expense, with even less oversight and restrictions than the national elites?

 

I'd say something about being disgusted, but this sort of bias isn't much of a surprise coming from you.

 

My dislike of claiming compensation on historic victimhood aside, since that's a never ending game, even if you did believe in such a thing mundanes in Thedas have far, far greater claim to compensation from mages than vice-versa. Mages kept mundanes in far more exploitative and oppressive bondage for a far longer period of time, and still do in Tevinter. In fact, it's the mages who continue to run the only actual chattel slavery system in Thedas, one that continues to prey on the mundanes of the South- and which deals in far more flesh and blood on a yearly basis than may even exist in the Circle system.

 

If you believe victim poker determing the current status of affairs, far more mundanes have suffered far worse for far longer, in the past and present, to mages than vice-versa.

[Dean_the_Young]

That's the problem with the feudal system as a whole. But it isn't clear how this could change without a wholesale political upheaval.

 

More to the point, there's very little reason to believe that wholesale political upheaval would change things away from de-facto feudalism and towards anything better. In many cases, revolutions see a return to more feudal relationships as strong-men dominate local areas and become key power brokers who trade their acquiesence to higher authorities in exchange for perks and privileges.

 

Power may come from the barrel of a gun and allow for mass revolution, but enlightened western liberalism really doesn't.