1363 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

As numerous people have pointed out, she didn't think she had any choice- she  thought her options were literally "Ally with Tevinter" or "Everyone dies."

 

That's it. That's why she does what she does in Inquisition- because the Conclave explosion made her and the mages vulnerable and Alexius' ability to save scum via time travel means she thinks they are doomed unless she acts. 

 

Which is stupid, because 'what she thinks' is not 'what is true,' or even 'what is verifiable.'

 

 

 

And I think a lot of people are forgetting some things about the mage rebellion:

 

1. It was inevitable.

 

 

 

It wasn't. Aside from the who question of infinite hypothetical alternative buildups, and a thousand years of relative peace before the current uprising, there was nothing about Fiona's road to war that she was compelled to do in the way she did.

 

 

2. The Chantry deliberately made it hard for the mages to unify and form a cohesive rebellion. Like, everything about the Circle set-up made mages dependent upon the Chantry and made them ill-equipped to rise up on their own. There was never, ever, ever going to be an "ideal" time to rebel.

 

 

There are, however, 'better' and 'worse' times, and ways, to rebel. Opportunity alone doesn't make something a good idea.

 

As for the mages being dependent on the Chantry... considering that the mages are self-financed, and self-organized, and internally autnomous, the only thing they depend on the Chantry for is Templar oversight. Which isn't exactly 'depending.'

 

 

3. That being said, rebelling when she did may have actually been a good idea, because the Seekers were imploding and the templars were at odds with the Chantry. She started the rebellion at a point when the enemy of mages were at their least capable of dealing with them, which is one of the main reasons the rebellion can be a success. 

 

 

 

...you do realize that by the time the rebellion 'succeeds', it has been wiped out or gone to ground everywhere but Redcliffe, right? The 'point when the enemy of mages were at their least capable' was a point at which the Mages were comprehensively wiped from the field across Southern Thedas and left hiding in caves or under the protection of external powers. The mages were in such poor shape that Fiona confused renegade Templars for a force that would overwhelm what was left of the magi.

 

The rebellion 'succeeds' through no plan or credit of Fiona's: she can not claim credit for Ferelden hospitality (which she betrays), the Divine's willingness to antagonize Templars on mage behalf (to which she says '**** the Divine'), Corypheus's decapitation and strike of the Chantry and replacement of Templar and Magi leadership (to whom she sells the mages in slavery to), the Inquisitor's choice of who to recruit for repairing the breach (to whom she says she is helpless to help), or the political results of the next Divine (who can crush her if she wants). In order for the Mage Rebellion to pretend to be a success, the mages must rely on one unknown and unplanned party to destroy their enemies for them, another unknown and unplanned party to be their security and diplomatic patron, and a third unknown and unplanned actor to rise to power over the Chantry and already agree with them.

 

At some point, 'success' probably needs to mean something other than 'is given what you wanted by other people for their own reasons.' At least if we want to pretend that a success is earned or deserves personal credit.

[Fredward]

Fiona turns into an utter, inexcusable idiot the moment she cedes from the Chantry. With half a brain the mages should have been WINNING that war or at least in an infinitely better position than which they found themselves. It's made worse because up till that point Fiona was bit of a Mary Sue, she was a total badass. Now I'm all for humanizing characters but not to the point where they act like they fell down the stupid tree hit every branch on the way down burrowed through the ground and got entangled in the roots. Not if they've already accomplished a lot. Don't even get me started on the Alexius decision. That made NO sense. None. Not even vaguely. I kept waiting for it to be revealed that she was replaced by a demon but nope. She just sort of epiderped.

[Wulfram]

I don't get what the mages were doing trapped in Redcliffe anyway. They should have been fighting as an insurgency, there's no reason for them to stick around for a pitched battle except on favourable terms.

[Bigdoser]

The thing is what bioware has done is make all factions and pretty much majority of the leaders of major organisations come out with eggs or their faces. I personally felt the only thing without egg on their faces is the andrastian faith. 

[Wulfram]

The thing is what bioware has done is make all factions and pretty much majority of the leaders of major organisations come out with eggs or their faces. I personally felt the only thing without egg on their faces is the andrastian faith.

You mean the guys whose leaders initially opposed the Inquisition, and then sat out the entire crisis squabbling about who is in charge?

And whose failure to manage the Circles properly led to the whole mage/templar squabble in the first place?

[Bigdoser]

No, that is not the "Andrastian faith" but rather just a specific organized religion based on it.  There is a difference.

^ 

 

Yup the whole fade bit pissed me off they never really talk about that you weren't really sent by the maker/andraste but a victim of circumstance but nooooo he must of sent you since he works in mysterious ways! Oh and hawke saying maybe you should keep what you found a secrets made me even more annoyed. 

 

While the elves pretty much had their faith/culture trashed in this game. 

[Wulfram]

No, that is not the "Andrastian faith" but rather just a specific organized religion based on it.  There is a difference.

Well, it's pretty much the only Andrastian faith around outside of Tevinter, aside from those cultists in the Hinterlands and those dragon worshipping dudes who used to be in Haven.

And you can't really compare it to "major organisations" if you're then going to ignore its organisation.

[Sifr]

I suspect the hatred comes only from meta-gaming of those familiar with books and the history of inconsistency of the character treatment from developers.

First of all, Fiona is the biggest MarySue of DA universe. She happened to break every rule of the lore with zero explanation (or close to zero in some cases). She just happened to be cured from blight, get pregnant while still "greywarding", meddling in politic left and right, being personally involved with every important person in Thedas, become the most powerful mage in Ferelden and so on, and so fort. Now, last drop for some become a sudden confirmation of her being Alistair's mother, while before writers were swearing on their graves she is not (and DAO confirmed it by everything but DNA-test).

 

To be fair, if meddling in politics left and right and being involved with every important in Thedas is criteria for a Mary-Sue, then how on earth does that not discount Leliana or the Warden from being also two of the biggest offenders in the entire franchise?

 

For Leliana, she's able to survive death with a very sketchy handwave in Inquistion, became one of the prime movers and shakers for Divine Justinia, has appeared in all three games and four DLCs thus far, while also being one of the most Blight-resistance specimens encountered from Alexius' research in the Dark-Future Redcliffe?

 

Likewise, the Warden has meddled in politics and played Kingmaker for two different nations (Ferelden and Orzammar), if a mage was Irving's best student and one of the most powerful and influential mages in the country, has met numerous important figures in Thedas, can survive fighting an Archdemon and become the first known Warden to do so, can father an Old God Baby, and finally is looking for a cure for the Taint if alive in Inquisition?

 

As for the Alistair's mother part, it was heavily implied in the novels that this was the case and the supposed story in-game was vague enough that one could easily see it being manufactured to hide both Maric's elven lovechild (a major scandal if known) and a potential heir's elven heritage? Maric having knocked up a servant who died in childbirth, is far less to raise eyebrows than him admit that if anything happened to Cailan, his kingdom could potentially fall to the son he had with an elven mage and former Grey Warden.

 

Now, suddenly that semi-god figure were diminished to an insignificant idiot who, nevertheless, managed to sell free mages to Tevinter (and they somehow accepted it practically without a fuss - just imagine someone telling you "oh, btw, I arranged on your behalf selling you to slavery. You are welcome". Or may be that was a demonstration of her incredible power?).  

 

Except that the Rebellion was sadly failing by the time the game is set. They've already lost Andoral's Reach and even with Alistair (or Anora) offering them safe haven in Ferelden, the Templars have continued their assault against them and have basically gotten them trapped in Redcliffe for the time being. Fiona even says that they feared that the Templars were about to kick down the door and kill them all when the Tevinters showed up and offered aid?

 

Secondly, while Indentured Servitude is technically a form of slavery, it's hardly uncommon in Thedas from what we've seen already. Hawke and their sibling were forced into it in DA2 to pay back the debt of getting them into Kirkwall and their reaction to Gamlen saying essentially what you wrote, was similar outrage and indignation. But because they were desperate, went along with it, just like the mages in Recliffe did.

 

Fiona might have screwed up by letting Alexius take control out from under her and having not necessarily consolted everyone before agreeing to Alexius' offer, but considering how screwed they were, what else was she supposed to do?

 

And the terms he offered were somewhat fair; none of them would be pressed into military service, at the end of ten years they would become full citizens of the Imperium (and as mages, be able to gain political power) and as contract slaves they would be like Krem's father, publicly-owned and thus afforded some respect and protection as wards of the state, unlike the non-contract slaves who typically are taken by slaving parties from other countries, who have little-to-no rights whatsoever?

 

It wasn't really Fiona's fault that Alexius decided to pull a Vader and renegotiate the terms of the deal, knowing that they were so desperate, they wouldn't dare object least he alter the deal and screw them over any further?

[Giantdeathrobot]

No, that is not the "Andrastian faith" but rather just a specific organized religion based on it.  There is a difference.

 

What, because Mother Giselle wasn't a corrupt priest? Almost every other figure of Andrastianism came out looking bad, from the obstrusive Roderick to the clerics in Val Royeaux to Lucius the ******* to Divine Justinia (who either didn't do enough or did too much) to Leliana mostly ditching her faith in favor of reform and expediency. The entire reason people look up to the Herald was revealed to be a fluke, a chance event based on circumstances and Coryfish not posting guards at the door. 

 

Cripes, just because Bioware doesn't present the entire faith as being a bunch of zealous maniacs doesn't mean it didn't come out looking bad in many places.

[BlazingSpeed]

Posted this in response to you asking the question in another topic, so here you go again.

 

There are two camps of people who hate her, with some overlap.

The first camp hates her because she comes off as a character from a bad fan fiction in the novels because of how much of a special snowflake she is. She upended what people who read the book after playing the game, considered established canon regarding Alister for no discernable reason making the sister side quest make no sense, and all we get for that upending is a writer's pet that seems to have been designed to be the most super special awesome thing ever, to the point that it is eye roll worthy. "I'm a badass Grey warden, oh met a man, now I'm immune to the taint so we can have babies! Now I have a kid who is a prince, but he can never know about me because reasons. Peace out I'm off to become Grand Enchanter and free the mages because everyone loves me." Mary Sue used to be used a lot when talking about her pre-DAI.

The second camp hates her because she is a complete moron in DAI (which is also the reason why the term Mary Sue is used less often when talking about her than it used to be). She started a war against the templars with absolutely no plan on how to make the rebellion work beyond, "We deserve freedom." By dumb luck her people manage to get positioned in the most defensible city in the South thanks to the mercy of the Fereldan monarch. However the moment she hears (false) rumors that the templars are marching on Redcliffe her solution is not to plan with the ARL on how to best protect the village, but to betray his trust, ally with a foreign power that is incapable of assisting in the hypothetical situation she fears, and institute a rebellion. And to top it off, in the process she sells her people into slavery unknowingly. Then when she realizes that she is dealing with Darth Vader, her response is to whimper like a kicked puppy rather than trying to do anything about it. Hell she doesn't even help save the mages in their quest. And no, time travel magic does not excuse any of these incompetencies. In DAI she is an incompetent leader and does more to hurt the cause of mage freedom than even the templars by showing that yes the mages will side with the evil empire if freed from the watchful eye of the templars.

 

I'm in the second camp the first camp Mary Sue explanation paragraph just makes Fiona's DA:I stupidity even more galling. 

[Lebanese Dude]

Don't forget her distaste for commoners. Vivienne is the only companion that doesn't approve of taking Vale's refugees in as she claims gold is better than a bunch of unskilled commoners, and she suggests leaving everyone in Haven to die to save yourself. Not to mention her looking down of people like the Grey Wardens.

She actually gains approval if you help them anyway

[Zeroth Angel]

Posted this in response to you asking the question in another topic, so here you go again.

 

There are two camps of people who hate her, with some overlap.

The first camp hates her because she comes off as a character from a bad fan fiction in the novels because of how much of a special snowflake she is. She upended what people who read the book after playing the game, considered established canon regarding Alister for no discernable reason making the sister side quest make no sense, and all we get for that upending is a writer's pet that seems to have been designed to be the most super special awesome thing ever, to the point that it is eye roll worthy. "I'm a badass Grey warden, oh met a man, now I'm immune to the taint so we can have babies! Now I have a kid who is a prince, but he can never know about me because reasons. Peace out I'm off to become Grand Enchanter and free the mages because everyone loves me." Mary Sue used to be used a lot when talking about her pre-DAI.

The second camp hates her because she is a complete moron in DAI (which is also the reason why the term Mary Sue is used less often when talking about her than it used to be). She started a war against the templars with absolutely no plan on how to make the rebellion work beyond, "We deserve freedom." By dumb luck her people manage to get positioned in the most defensible city in the South thanks to the mercy of the Fereldan monarch. However the moment she hears (false) rumors that the templars are marching on Redcliffe her solution is not to plan with the ARL on how to best protect the village, but to betray his trust, ally with a foreign power that is incapable of assisting in the hypothetical situation she fears, and institute a rebellion. And to top it off, in the process she sells her people into slavery unknowingly. Then when she realizes that she is dealing with Darth Vader, her response is to whimper like a kicked puppy rather than trying to do anything about it. Hell she doesn't even help save the mages in their quest. And no, time travel magic does not excuse any of these incompetencies. In DAI she is an incompetent leader and does more to hurt the cause of mage freedom than even the templars by showing that yes the mages will side with the evil empire if freed from the watchful eye of the templars.

A good post.

 

Whether she is a Mary Sue doesn't actually bother me but her being a idiot is what bothered me. I mean let's sell the mages to Tevinter! I'm sure that will turn out well!

 

If we had the option I would execute her after I have the mages on my side.

[Iakus]

So basically, what you're saying/suggesting, is that it's hypocritical of someone to make a choice when backed into a corner. And that that hypocrisy somehow makes them a problem.

 

BTW, you're forgetting that she asked for Tevinter's help 3 years after her rebellion began, not when it started. She never planned to force the rebel mages into the servitude of magisters. She made a choice she didn't want to have to make. That might make her a bad leader, but it doesn't make her a hypocrite.

But when her rebellion started she was willing to lead the mages in a war against the Templars, to kill and die, rather than go back to the Circles.  Heck she almost got everyone in White Spire killed in her drive t declare independence.

 

But when things were looking bad, suddenly her principles of mage freedom didn't seem to be so important.  She was willing to sell herself, and the men, women and children into slavery to Tevinter (apparently without the knowledge or consent of other mages).

 

 Might as well have stayed in the Circles.

[Ranadiel Marius]

Huh... I guess you hateful people are nothing like those saps I found on YouTube. To me, they seem like they must/would cuddle their family members because it's the only way they know how to cope with loss. I just figured you hateful people would be the same. Turns out you guys are actually evil, not just misguided fools.

 

Or maybe you're just one guy (straight male, white skin, dark brown/dark hair no doubt, LOL), and don't actually represent the populace of questioning morons here.

 

For me, I never made Alistair a drunk, or made Loghain a Grey Warden (except to see what he has to say when you talk to him in camp), and in my most evil playthrough (I had 3, all female), I had Alistair sacrifice himself. The other two romanced him, and I'm not even attracted to Alistair. Hopefully that will show you where I stand on him. As for Fiona, there is no way to interact with her in a positive or negative way (ignoring siding with the Templars) directly with a PC.

I'm evil now? O.o Where the hell did this come from? I don't understand what's going on anymore.

[Gervaise]

You know I'd have had more sympathy for her if we'd been given a more conventional reason for her change of heart rather than time warp.   When I first turned up at Redcliffe and she seemed so genuinely confused my immediate reaction was "blood magic" considering we were dealing with a Tevinter Magister.   I could believe that an ex-Warden, ex-Circle mage might not be equipped to resist the control of a powerful blood mage but then we met Dorian and it is all about turning back time so Alexius simply got to her first and I suddenly felt a lot less sympathetic.

 

Was it explained in the game actually what happened at Andoral's Reach?   I don't recall a codex and I'm almost certain no one discusses it with you.   The odd thing is, if they had lost Andoral's Reach to Templar attack then surely the best option would have been to head north into Tevinter and throw themselves on the mercy of the Magisters, if Fiona was okay with that idea, which she seems to have been.   However, I thought the reason they left their hideaway and came south was because the conflict had hit a stalemate and Justinia had called the peace conference to try and act as mediator between the Templars and mages and negotiate a peace settlement, which is presumably why Alistair/Anora offered them the use of Redcliffe Castle as a base where the main bulk of mages could shelter whilst their leaders went to the conclave.    I still think it a bit odd that Fiona wasn't in attendance.    Even if she didn't trust the Templars she really had an obligation to turn up on behalf of her fellow mages since she had got them into the conflict in the first place.      I presume her deputy, Adrian, went instead, even though she would have been a terrible negotiator.  Still that meant she got blown up, so I suppose some good came out of Fiona's non-attendance.

 

I still find it rather satisfying doing the Templar run  and confronting Fiona at Haven, particularly since I had Vivienne in my party.   Boy must Vivienne have enjoyed us blowing Fiona away

[Helmetto]

From my understanding, she didn't techinically sign the mages on for slavery; what she actually did was sign them on to become citizens of Tevinter, which would've required ten years of living there via indentured servitude.

 

Which, in comparison to being brutally massacred and/or being shoved back into prison-like circles for the rest of their natural born lives, sounds like the better deal.

[Sifr]

But when her rebellion started she was willing to lead the mages in a war against the Templars, to kill and die, rather than go back to the Circles.  Heck she almost got everyone in White Spire killed in her drive t declare independence.

 

But when things were looking bad, suddenly her principles of mage freedom didn't seem to be so important.  She was willing to sell herself, and the men, women and children into slavery to Tevinter (apparently without the knowledge or consent of other mages).

 

 Might as well have stayed in the Circles.

 

Technically, it was Lambert who nearly got everyone killed because he and the Templars struck first, Fiona and the others merely acted in self-defence. Cole even says that he read his mind and that Lambert was willing to murder them all to crush any kind of dissent, so it's not like Fiona and the Conclave weren't probably going to be put to the sword, regardless of how the vote for independence went?

 

People seem to getting hung up on the slavery part, not the part where it's stated that they were been indentured servants for ten years, whereupon their contract will expire and they will become free citizens in the Imperium. It's not clear whether they'd become Laetans and be allowed to join the Circle since they are mages, or merely be stuck as emancipated slaves and thus Liberati, but presumably the former since Alexius intended them to join the military, something the Liberati are not permitted to do?

 

It's still going to be a hard ten years, slavery no matter what type is still abhorrent and she should have consulted them over it first, but it's hardly like she sold them into a life of chains that they'd never escape from? She gave them a chance to live as free men, women and children of a country that doesn't look down on magic... and compared to the Circle or death, it seemed the far better option from the precious few on the table?

[Addai]

Well, yes, Goldana was his half sister.
 
But none of that really matters. It was a retcon. An unnecessary retcon for no good reason. It came to nothing. I thought there was some good reason the writers felt compelled to do that. But no.
 
Unless they were just trying to protect the image of Maric as well as Eamon. So now Alistair is a love child of a casanova king that finally fell in love.  Instead of just the basturd son of an arrogant, privileged king and a scullery maid.
 
And it was not a fact until they made it a fact later. Retcon.

The Calling came out before the game. It wasn't a retcon. You can say you don't like the real story, but that's the way it is.

As for the hatred of Fiona, it's a snowball effect from the forums.

[keesio74]

The Calling came out before the game. It wasn't a retcon. You can say you don't like the real story, but that's the way it is.

As for the hatred of Fiona, it's a snowball effect from the forums.

 

The game was in development for years. The story of DA:O was fleshed out long before The Calling was written.

 

It is canon story but was certainly a retcon.

 

As for Fiona - I felt bad for her on my first encounter because I could tell she acted out of desperation and you can see she is already regretting the deal and feels trapped. Then I did some research on her past and I totally feel bad for her considering what she went through. It magnified my sympathy exponentially. Not enough for me to abandon my plan to do Champions of the Just, but I really felt terrible I abandoned her and the Mages to their fate.

[Dean_the_Young]

Technically, it was Lambert who nearly got everyone killed because he and the Templars struck first, Fiona and the others merely acted in self-defence. Cole even says that he read his mind and that Lambert was willing to murder them all to crush any kind of dissent, so it's not like Fiona and the Conclave weren't probably going to be put to the sword, regardless of how the vote for independence went?

 

'Regardless of how the vote for independence went' is presuming that the vote for independence was a given or necessary. It wasn't- Fiona and other agitators egged it on despite knowing, and counting, on the escalating Templar reactions. It was not a surprise to Fiona, nor was it exactly unexpected. At which point you could just as well turn the responsibility on Fiona, who went forward with trying to stage independence votes even thought it was obviously spurring escalating Templar responses. Which was the point- Fiona needed the Lamberts and hardliners of the Templars to frighten the mages enough to give her the vote she wanted, after her first attempts failed.

 

 

 

People seem to getting hung up on the slavery part, not the part where it's stated that they were been indentured servants for ten years, whereupon their contract will expire and they will become free citizens in the Imperium. It's not clear whether they'd become Laetans and be allowed to join the Circle since they are mages, or merely be stuck as emancipated slaves and thus Liberati, but presumably the former since Alexius intended them to join the military, something the Liberati are not permitted to do?

 

 

An appropriate term for 'indentured servants forced into military service' is 'slave.' Slavery does not require being for life to be slavery- nor does citizenship afterwards change the dynamic.

 

 

It's still going to be a hard ten years, slavery no matter what type is still abhorrent and she should have consulted them over it first, but it's hardly like she sold them into a life of chains that they'd never escape from? She gave them a chance to live as free men, women and children of a country that doesn't look down on magic... and compared to the Circle or death, it seemed the far better option from the precious few on the table?

 

 

 

...she gave them a chance, by selling them without their consent or any vote of support, into subjugation and involuntary military service for a racial-supremacy oligarchy that devours its own upper-class and has a human-rights record that makes the Circles look positively progressive by comparison. When they weren't even being faced by the alternative of 'or death,' because the man she sold them and their children to was lying. Not only about the threat of the Templars, but about ever giving them 'freedom' in a Tevinter, considering that they would be bowing to his cult and its victorious post-apocalypse god-king. Or, if they refused, either dead or brainwashed.

 

Uh, yeah. Right. A chance, in a game rigged from the start.

[Ranadiel Marius]

From my understanding, she didn't techinically sign the mages on for slavery; what she actually did was sign them on to become citizens of Tevinter, which would've required ten years of living there via indentured servitude.

 

Which, in comparison to being brutally massacred and/or being shoved back into prison-like circles for the rest of their natural born lives, sounds like the better deal.

Ten years of service.....in the TI military. Aka, ten years fighting the Qunari as the most expendable mages on the battlefield. If half of those she signed away survived that, then I would be in shock (assuming Alexius hadn't altered the deal further to put them in the Venatori).