1363 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

Joining the military isn't great, but it's hardly slavery. And competent commanders wouldn't waste military assets like mages casually.

[Sports72Xtrm]

People really don't seem to understand that the cuture of thedas pushes them into desperate measures, which I don't understand why people have this indignant reaction to when the mages decided to get in bed with tevinter after the explosion of the conclave made them anathema to all andrastian nations. fiona's plan of having the conclave work out was the best case scenario, that was the plan for peaceful compromise. What happens when you take that away? War- and mages are respected in Tevinter, better than being slaughtered and persecuted by the muggles. And then ofcourse, alexius changes the terms so what happens? she goes into bed with calpernia, champion of the downtrodden in tevinter.  As Solas says, "And most of them are "savage," as you say, because your culture taught them nothing else." They know nothing but to close ranks because the alternative is subjugation or slaughter. So even as they fight against it, they are guided by the chantry's fearmongering principles.

 

The game was rigged for the mage rebellion, so yes, it is ones right to be callous to their plight but I don't know how anyone could have guided the mage rebellion out of that rock and a hard place unless the inquisition took a chance for them.

[X Equestris]

The game was in development for years. The story of DA:O was fleshed out long before The Calling was written.

It is canon story but was certainly a retcon.

As for Fiona - I felt bad for her on my first encounter because I could tell she acted out of desperation and you can see she is already regretting the deal and feels trapped. Then I did some research on her past and I totally feel bad for her considering what she went through. It magnified my sympathy exponentially. Not enough for me to abandon my plan to do Champions of the Just, but I really felt terrible I abandoned her and the Mages to their fate.

You don't seem to understand what a retcon is. A retcon is when published information is contradicted and replaced by new info in a later installment, or Word of God. It doesn't matter if the game was in development for years or not. Origin's story altered several times during its development. Nothing before a piece of media is released should be considered set in stone, as it can be changed.

[Addai]

The game was in development for years. The story of DA:O was fleshed out long before The Calling was written.
 
It is canon story but was certainly a retcon.

There has to be a "con" in order to "retro" it. Alistair's character did undergo development- he was originally supposed to be older- but IMO that meant he was originally going to be Katriel's son, not a Redcliffe chambermaid's.

The point of the Goldanna quest was not to find Alistair's family, it was to see the unforeseen consequences of Maric and Fiona trying to protect their son from their legacies.

[Sifr]

'Regardless of how the vote for independence went' is presuming that the vote for independence was a given or necessary. It wasn't- Fiona and other agitators egged it on despite knowing, and counting, on the escalating Templar reactions. It was not a surprise to Fiona, nor was it exactly unexpected. At which point you could just as well turn the responsibility on Fiona, who went forward with trying to stage independence votes even thought it was obviously spurring escalating Templar responses. Which was the point- Fiona needed the Lamberts and hardliners of the Templars to frighten the mages enough to give her the vote she wanted, after her first attempts failed.

 

Of course it wasn't unexpected, everyone and their mum's knew what would happen. Still, what do you expect given how much the Templars were cracking down and doing as much as they could to antagonise things? It's not like Fiona was in the wrong to gather the mages to meet and discuss how things were, nor to want to raise the motion, since they were legally allowed to do both under Chantry Law.

 

An appropriate term for 'indentured servants forced into military service' is 'slave.' Slavery does not require being for life to be slavery- nor does citizenship afterwards change the dynamic.

 

No-one is denying that they would be slaves, and indeed, that's why indentured servitude is banned in our world in most countries. Still, as pointed out beforehand, indentured servitude for a fixed term of time is not uncommon elsewhere in Thedas where slavery is illegal, such as Kirkwall. And indeed, it seems to be the case even in Ferelden and Orlais, since you are allowed to conscript Blackwall into military service after pardoning him?

 

Still, the original terms Fiona agreed to that they were not going to be pressed into military service and she objects when Alexius reveals that he intends to do so against her wishes, so the fault on this lies with Alexius, not her?

 

...she gave them a chance, by selling them without their consent or any vote of support, into subjugation and involuntary military service for a racial-supremacy oligarchy that devours its own upper-class and has a human-rights record that makes the Circles look positively progressive by comparison. When they weren't even being faced by the alternative of 'or death,' because the man she sold them and their children to was lying. Not only about the threat of the Templars, but about ever giving them 'freedom' in a Tevinter, considering that they would be bowing to his cult and its victorious post-apocalypse god-king. Or, if they refused, either dead or brainwashed.

 

Uh, yeah. Right. A chance, in a game rigged from the start.

 

Except that again, the deal didn't include military service and while the human right's abuses in Tevinter are awful (no question), the fact that Krem tells us that the public-owned slaves are given far more rights and protection under the law suggests that it's a far cry from the type of slavery subjected on those like Fenris, who are at the very bottom of the ladder.

 

As for the threat of the Templars, it's left unclear about whether or not this was a lie, or that the Templars were outside the gates, only to withdraw as Lucius Corin decided to call the order to fall back to Therinfal? Indeed, several notes and the amount of rogue Templars in the Hinterlands suggests they might have been stragglers who ignored the call?

 

And as for the Venatori, none of them knew or heard about it, nor did they know about Corypheus, so it's hardly unfair to throw that as another reason that FIona was wrong to ally with Tevinter? That was a curveball that no-one saw coming!

[Wulfram]

One of the worst things about selling out to Tevinter is that it also totally screws over all the mages that aren't with her right now. She's abandoning southern Thedas to the Templars, and giving them a pretty strong justification for continued persecution.

[Ieldra]

This may be slightly OT, but....do people get this worked up about characters in TV shows? I mean yeah, ok, there are a few things to criticize in Fiona's presentation - basically I agree with Dean's take on the matter - in the books and in the game, but I don't find that a reason for strong emotions. If she were more prominent, I'd feel insulted by the writers for expecting me to accept her as a valid leader of the mage rebellion, and I vaguely recall feeling exactly that for her being overly emotional in one of the books, but in the end she's not important enough to get worked up over. I find Vivienne's enforced conversational superiority much more annoying since it comes at the cost of my character's intelligence.

In any case I'd not hate her rather than tell her writer(s) they did a bad job.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

People really don't seem to understand that the cuture of thedas pushes them into desperate measures, which I don't understand why people have this indignant reaction to when the mages decided to get in bed with tevinter after the explosion of the conclave made them anathema to all andrastian nations.

This argument would work if they hadn't just gotten an alliance with Ferelden. Seriously. Fiona has a crowned head thinking kind thoughts about her and has been allowed to live in a castle that the Guerrin brothers assert a skeleton force could hold. I have seen no real evidence that the Templars have either, or anything to counter either with (since I don't think any Behemoths have finished mutating yet.) If she was reacting to a legitimate Godzilla Threshold situation I'd agree with you. This really isn't one.

[SnakeCode]

One of the worst things about selling out to Tevinter is that it also totally screws over all the mages that aren't with her right now. She's abandoning southern Thedas to the Templars, and giving them a pretty strong justification for continued persecution.

The big thing for me is that the crux of the mage rebellion is freedom. That's the whole reaon they rebelled and why they're fighting. Yet their freedom is exactly what Fiona gives up when she hands them over to Tevinter, as indentured servants. She put them in a position where they would have less freedom than they did in the circles.

[Ryriena]

The big thing for me is that the crux of the mage rebellion is freedom. That's the whole reaon they rebelled and why they're fighting. Yet their freedom is exactly what Fiona gives up when she hands them over to Tevinter, as indentured servants. She put them in a position where they would have less freedom than they did in the circles.

Which to me was to me a bullshit cop out to put the Mages and her character into a nose dive. Am I right!

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Which to me was bullshit cop out to put the Mages and her character into a nose dive. I am I right!

It does sound about right.

[Sports72Xtrm]

This argument would work if they hadn't just gotten an alliance with Ferelden. Seriously. Fiona has a crowned head thinking kind thoughts about her and has been allowed to live in a castle that the Guerrin brothers assert a skeleton force could hold. I have seen no real evidence that the Templars have either, or anything to counter either with (since I don't think any Behemoths have finished mutating yet.) If she was reacting to a legitimate Godzilla Threshold situation I'd agree with you. This really isn't one.

Arl Wulf urged her to accept the alliance because as he reasoned, their presence was hurting ferelden. Not to mention, alexius used time magic and political pressuring to assure her rebellion's life was in danger. Are we simply to dismiss the entrapment simply because we need someone to take the blame for something? It's unjust that sort of mentality but I'll let others decide for themselves.

[SnakeCode]

It does sound about right.

Personal bias clouds the matter too, if the templars had done anything near as bad there wouldn't be anybody calling it a cop out to make them look bad (not the same people anyway.)

[Ryriena]

It does sound about right.

lol It just was so unlikely she would do something like this since it felt like a cop out by the writers to paint Mages in a bad light....."

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Which to me was to me a bullshit cop out to put the Mages and her character into a nose dive. Am I right!

 

When were mages as a group ever shown to be very trustworthy before this?

[Ryriena]

Personal bias clouds the matter too, if the templars had done anything near as bad there wouldn't be anybody calling it a cop out to make them look bad (not the same people anyway.)

I am not a fan of templars however I tend to also see somthing like that as a small cop out. However, they also painted the templars as nothing but followers whom beat the Mages ect

[Ryriena]

When were mages as a group ever shown to be very trustworthy before this?

By Varric for exmaple by calling them loyal ect and personal bias much

[SnakeCode]

I am not a fan of templars however I tend to also see somthing like that as a small cop out. However, they also painted the templars as nothing but followers whom beat the Mages ect

Since when? In Origins the templars were depicted as extremely reasonable. In DA2 both the templars AND the mages were shown at their absolute worst. In DA:I it's actually fairly balanced, with all of the problems stemming from the leadership of both groups. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Arl Wulf urged her to accept the alliance because as he reasoned, their presence was hurting ferelden. Not to mention, alexius used time magic and political pressuring to assure her rebellion's life was in danger. Are we simply to dismiss the entrapment simply because we need someone to take the blame for something? It's unjust that sort of mentality but I'll let others decide for themselves.

No. We are to dismiss the entrapment for the reasons I gave, unless you can refute them. Can you?

[Sports72Xtrm]

No. We are to dismiss the entrapment for the reasons I gave, unless you can refute them. Can you?

Everyone in redcliffe has said they were scared of a templar assault. The hinterlands was a warzone, why the templars pulled back because of what lucius corin's doppleganger's deal was an unforeseeable outcome. But by that time, the pressuring was clear duress. If you dismiss it well, I say it's because you want a scapegoat. Fiona wasn't at fault.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

You mean the impregnable fortress that the Hero of Ferelden, a dog, and two buddies liberated?

A PC taking a castle isn't the same as that castle being weak. Besides which they used a secret passage that the Templars wouldn't have knowledge of to get in at all. And Connor didn't have a superior to take offense at all of this, which is another major advantage the mages do in fact have. (Or did, before they ruined it.)

 

Everyone in redcliffe has said they were scared of a templar assault. The hinterlands was a warzone, why the templars pulled back because of what lucius corin's doppleganger's deal was an unforeseeable outcome. But by that time, the pressuring was clear duress. If you dismiss it well, I say it's because you want a scapegoat. Fiona wasn't at fault.

I still don't think my actual argument (namely that the mages had the protection of the Ferelden royalty and of a freaking castle, and that the situation therefore hadn't yet become as bad as merits what Fiona did) has been adequately answered. And I don't see how your argument can work if mine isn't answered.

[Ryriena]

Since when? In Origins the templars were depicted as extremely reasonable. In DA2 both the templars AND the mages were shown at their absolute worst. In DA:I it's actually fairly balanced, with all of the problems stemming from the leadership of both groups.

On you mean when Gregior the Knight Captian beat that pregant mage in the comics or how about when in DAI you hear from chantry sisters about the abuses committed by the Templars. They never beat them in front of me, but I did see the burses on the Mages. This is the exact qoute.

[o Ventus]

My problem with Fiona:

 

She'd rather die than be slaves to the Templars.   But would rather be slaves to Tevinter than die.

 

It's so hypocritical.

Not slaves to the Templars, but prisoners under the Templars. And when Fiona made the deal with Alexius, it was time working as indentured labor (and military work) in exchange for eventual freedom. Obviously, it being Alexius, he went back on his word and enslaved them after Fiona signed on.