1363 réponses à ce sujet

[Sports72Xtrm]

I still don't think my actual argument (namely that the mages had the protection of the Ferelden royalty and of a freaking castle) has been adequately answered. And I don't see how your argument can work if mine isn't answered.

Because your argument is irrelevant. The circumstances were different, the mages were in desperate need of immediate protection which the Ferelden monarchy didn't provide. The tevinter imperium was offering and an arl urged fiona to seal the deal by agreeing with the thousands of people whispering in her ear that the templars were out to annhilate her and her followers. It's not a black and white issue so we cannot judge her actions as such.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Because your argument is irrelevant. The circumstances were different, the mages were in desperate need of immediate protection which the Ferelden monarchy didn't provide. The tevinter imperium was offering and an arl urged fiona to seal the deal along by agreeing with the thousands of people whispering in her ear that the templars were out to annhilate her and her followers. It's not a black and white issue so we cannot judge her actions as such.

I am arguing that Fiona had a freaking castle, and that to the best of my knowledge the Templars didn't have the equipment to handle one. How is that irrelevant to your argument that she was afraid of imminent destruction?

[Sports72Xtrm]

I am arguing that Fiona had a freaking castle. How is that irrelevant to your argument that she was afraid of imminent destruction?

with little troops to defend against a massive templar host. agents of alexius and an arl told her her defenses were inadequate. So saying "but you have a castle you should have known better" does not dismiss the fact that she was manipulated and under duress. Even the peasants were leaving because they feared a losing battle. Seriously, if you are pinned down, and someone gives you an out, would you not take it? It's ridiculous to expect an cornered animal to react any other way.

[Ryriena]

I agree Riverdale it made no sense in a military sense it only was put into paint the mages in a bad light. Anyone with common sense would have stayed in the impregnable castle and fight which they done the day before according to several people.


A small force of Mages could defend easyily against a horde of Templars.

[Sports72Xtrm]

It's not arguing that the impregnable castle didn't help, its that alexius' extra troops to man it would have increased their chances of survival. after the templar host pulled back however, alexius had his troops displaced the arl. how is that irrational at the time they were outnumbered and after the battle was canceled because they pulled back, they alienated the rebellion's benefactors by displacing their arl?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

with little troops to defend against a massive templar host. agents of alexius and an arl told her her defenses were inadequate. So saying "but you have a castle you should have known better" does not dismiss the fact that she was manipulated and under duress. Even the peasants were leaving because they feared a losing battle. Seriously, if you are pinned down, and someone gives you an out, would you not take it? It's ridiculous to expect an cornered animal to react any other way.

Thank you for finally addressing the actual argument. That said, Eamon and Teagan both take as read that that castle can hold against freaking Ogres and Emissaries for as long as it takes the Hero to save Denerim, with what they describe as a skeleton crew. Do we even know that the Templars could still afford catapults? I know she was being manipulated and was under duress, but part of the duress was manufactured through the manipulation, which she ought to have seen.

 

It's not arguing that the impregnable castle didn't help, its that alexius' extra troops to man it would have increased their chances of survival. after the templar host pulled back however, alexius had his troops displaced the arl. how is that irrational at the time they were outnumbered and after the battle, they alienated the benefactors by displacing their arl.

Because their chances were already pretty good. You can do desperate things to win a war, but you want to be... actually desperate first.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Thank you for finally addressing the actual argument, but Eamon and Teagan both take as read that that castle can hold against freaking Ogres and Emissaries for as long as it takes the Hero to save Denerim, with what they describe as a skeleton crew. Do we even know that the Templars could still afford catapults? I know she was being manipulated and was under duress, but part of the duress was manufactured through the manipulation, which she ought to have seen.

 

Because their chances were already pretty good.

Her entourage has been compromised. I don't know how you can be so harsh, there's no way she could have been omniscient with time magic, tevinter agents among her entourage, and a ferelden arl all pushing for the tevinter alliance. Your demand that she be able to see through it with such limited resources and time pressuring her, is an unreasonable demand.

 

"pretty good" to you is a subjective opinion of a person who wasn't there and wasn't under the duress they were. It's easy for you to be so judgemental in hindsight.

[SnakeCode]

with little troops to defend against a massive templar host. agents of alexius and an arl told her her defenses were inadequate. So saying "but you have a castle you should have known better" does not dismiss the fact that she was manipulated and under duress. Even the peasants were leaving because they feared a losing battle. Seriously, if you are pinned down, and someone gives you an out, would you not take it? It's ridiculous to expect an cornered animal to react any other way.

There was no massive templar host. Just a few strays left in the hinterlands. The bulk of the order had been summoned to Val Roxeaux to be sent to Therinfall. The tevinters created that threat by infiltrating the rebel mages and making it all up, it tells you this in game.

 

They had the most defensible keep in Fereldan, had they had Teagan send word to the king/queen, they could easily have held out until an army was sent to rescue them. Redcliffe is also a large fishing village surrounded by lush farmland, they wouldn't have been starved out either.

 

Either way, the point was moot as there was no approaching templar force. Fiona just took them at their word  and sold her people into slavery. She didn't even investigate the claims, you just can't find a way to make Fiona look good coming out of this.

 

Not even mentioning her and her people just stood by and allowed their protecters to be thrown from their homes and cast from the village, or watched as the Tevinter's butchered the tranquil.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Her entourage has been compromised. I don't know how you can be so harsh, there's no way she could have been omniscient with time magic, tevinter agents among her entourage, and a ferelden arl all pushing for the tevinter alliance. Your demand that she be able to see through it with such limited resources, is an unreasonable demand.

Here's one thing that can settle this: do we have any evidence that she asked Teagan their odds? He knows better than either of us (and almost certainly better than his peasants, though from Teagan's War Table mission request I think most of the reason they fled was because of the mages lack of control rather than the Templars) what the castle can throw back and what it can keep out for as long as is needed. And he knows way more about this than Fiona can be expected to. If we know for a fact that Teagan told her the castle was screwed, then I'd argue you're right about this decision. If Teagan had faith in his castle holding, and he either said as much to her or wasn't consulted, I'm still inclined to look down on Fiona. If we have nothing either way, then this gets more difficult, but I'd be inclined to hold to my earlier assessment.

[earl of the north]

I think the question was answered fully in the first reply on this topic......she lead an inept rebellion, without even the majority of mages supporting her, at probably the worst time (after a mage terrorist attack), without any plan, with no support, betrayed the one group who offered her mages refuge, conspired with a foreign power  (since she doesn't know their actually a cult and not offically Tevinter) signed her mages into actual slavery (unlike the circles) including children who were planned to be used as cannon fodder and allowed the slaughter of the tranquil...........I don't hate her (not least because she's a fictional character), she's just pitiful as a leader and a person.

 

 

I've played both routes now (Templar and Mage) and I think I'll stick with the Templars since I think its the better written of the two and I don't have to put up with Fiona hanging around contributing nothing, I find it strange that Vivenne is hated for her power hungry ways but Fiona who climbed the ladder of power within the mage ranks to the highest rank and engineered a vote for independence knowing she didn't have the support of the majority of mages which lead to countless mage deaths isn't.

[Sports72Xtrm]

sigh, agree to disagree then. Nothing I say will disuade you guys. Fiona was a victim here, but people need a fall guy for the debacle. "human justice" i suppose.

[SnakeCode]

On you mean when Gregior the Knight Captian beat that pregant mage in the comics or how about when in DAI you hear from chantry sisters about the abuses committed by the Templars. They never beat them in front of me, but I did see the burses on the Mages. This is the exact qoute.

The comic makes Gregoir so OOC it's hard to consider it canon. As for the rest, it's word of mouth. You choose whether to believe it or not depending on whether you like the message.

 

Characters like Wynne, Vivienne and Finn have said abuses are extremely rare, but something tells me you don't just take them at their word?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

sigh, agree to disagree then. Nothing I say will disuade you guys. Fiona was a victim here, but people need a fall guy for the debacle. "human justice" i suppose.

I'd thought I'd made clear several times that I am willing to change my mind on this. The problem is that I do not believe you have given me reason to.

[Sports72Xtrm]

I'd thought I'd made clear several times that I am willing to change my mind on this. The problem is that I do not believe you have given me reason to.

just saying you're objective might not really mean you are objective. It could be that the reality does not actually meet the ideal. 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

By Varric for exmaple by calling them loyal ect and personal bias much

When was that? And I was looking more for an example of a group of mages handling some conflict in an appropriate and competent manner, not the subjective opinion of a dwarf who lies as a hobby. I, for my part, cannot think of one example.

Despite whatever you have been made to think, one does not have to hate mages to recognize their flaws as a group. If anything made me much less sympathetic to the likes of them, it was playing as a mage myself, because they would routinely disappoint me and make me want to distance myself from them 'til I finally got tired of trying to make excuses for them. Other people seem to be full of those excuses, though, to justify their enchantment with "ooh, magicks!"

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

just saying your objective might not really mean you are objective. It could be that the reality does not actually meet the ideal. 

That possibility has occurred to me, but given that my last post before you threw your hands up and gave up was me deliberately giving you a chance to completely win the argument I'm inclined to doubt it.

[Ryriena]

The comic makes Gregoir so OOC it's hard to consider it canon. As for the rest, it's word of mouth. You choose whether to believe it or not depending on whether you like the message.

Characters like Wynne, Vivienne and Finn have said abuses are extremely rare, but something tells me you don't just take them at their word?

Take Cole with Vivienne and he tell you what she says is bullshit, and you think he was OOC but the writer of the novel though it wasn't so out of character for him.

I mean, he threatens to kill the warden mage if you tell the plot about too the first enchanter. Ect

[SnakeCode]

Here's one thing that can settle this: do we have any evidence that she asked Teagan their odds? He knows better than either of us (and almost certainly better than his peasants, though from Teagan's War Table mission request I think most of the reason they fled was because of the mages lack of control rather than the Templars) what the castle can throw back and what it can keep out for as long as is needed. And he knows way more about this than Fiona can be expected to. If we know for a fact that Teagan told her the castle was screwed, then I'd argue you're right about this decision. If Teagan had faith in his castle holding, and he either said as much to her or wasn't consulted, I'm still inclined to look down on Fiona. If we have nothing either way, then this gets more difficult, but I'd be inclined to hold to my earlier assessment.

We know that Redcliffe Castle is the most defensible keep in Fereldan, and if you side with the mages Cullen says it would be suicide to launch an assault on the keep, and that's just with a skeleton crew of Tevinters guarding it. There's nothing to suggest it wouldn't have held (even had there been a significant force advancing.)

[Sports72Xtrm]

That possibility has occurred to me, but given that my last post before you threw your hands up and gave up was me deliberately giving you a chance to completely win the argument I'm inclined to doubt it.

possibly because i'm just weary of defending the innocence of a fictional character. I am human after all.

 

but her claims weren't unfounded. Her mages were dying in the hinterlands, you can't deny a major battle was brewing. Whether we believe it was right for her to be intimidated is were we branch off in opinion, both subjective which i doubt will reach any sort of agreement. We both said our piece:

Me:she was manipulated

you:she should have stood her ground she had a castle and the monarchy's support

Me: did you see what she was up against? time magic, agents, an arl, a templar host approaching, how could she not be intimidated,

you: nope

 

see where i'm coming from? I rather this not be a circular argument.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

possibly because i'm just weary of defending the innocence of a fictional character. I am human after all.

Okay, yeah, but I don't see how being willing to argue longer than you are means I'm not objective. You also gave up just as I gave you a chance to completely win, which does put your defense of Fiona in an interesting light.

 

 

We know that Redcliffe Castle is the most defensible keep in Fereldan, and if you side with the mages Cullen says it would be suicide to launch an assault on the keep, and that's just with a skeleton crew of Tevinters guarding it. There's nothing to suggest it wouldn't have held (even had there been a significant force advancing.)

Not quite as good as I was hoping, but it does seem to make Sports' argument harder to swallow.

[Sir DeLoria]

Fiona is just a horrible, horrible character. She's even worse than Tallis and that's saying a lot.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Okay, yeah, but I don't see how being willing to argue longer than you are means I'm not objective. You also gave up just as I gave you a chance to completely win, which does put your defense of Fiona in an interesting light.

 

 

 

Not quite as good as I was hoping, but it does seem to make Sports argument harder to swallow.

very well her claims weren't unfounded. Her mages were dying in the hinterlands, you can't deny a major battle was brewing. Whether we believe it was right for her to be intimidated is were we branch off in opinion, both subjective which i doubt will reach any sort of agreement. We both said our piece:

Me:she was manipulated

you:she should have stood her ground she had a castle (a very well known defensible castle admitttably) and the monarchy's support

Me: did you see what she was up against? time magic, agents, an arl, a templar host approaching. how could she not be intimidated?

you: nope. she should have known better.

 

see where i'm coming from? At this rate it will be a circular argument. beccause it is impossible for me to prove if redcliffe could have been defended with or without the tevinter's support unless it actually happened. 

[Morroian]

Her entourage has been compromised. I don't know how you can be so harsh, there's no way she could have been omniscient with time magic, tevinter agents among her entourage, and a ferelden arl all pushing for the tevinter alliance. Your demand that she be able to see through it with such limited resources and time pressuring her, is an unreasonable demand.

 

 

IMHO this is how its meant to be seen unfortunately however we weren't shown it so its harder to judge and some people aren't willing to take a more objective view.

[actionhero112]

Just because she was manipulated doesn't give her the right to align herself with the most morally corrupt faction of the most morally corrupt empire in the world. 

 

Like oh god someone threatened me, better do what they say, no matter how many people suffer because of my stupid decision. What an idiot. Not to mention it's inconsistant that she chose freedom over safety in the rebellion but chose safety over freedom in the redcliffe event. Like great, you exchanged one prison for another. Except your new one is much worse.

[Dean_the_Young]

Because their chances were already pretty good. You can do desperate things to win a war, but you want to be... actually desperate first.

 

And the desperate things should actually advance your position.

 

In selling herself and the magi to Tevinter, Fiona increased the war potential of the mages by... a few more mages, mainly whatever retinue Alexius brought with him. This came at the cost of the political, military, and diplomatic support of Ferelden, which was lost when the Arl and all the Arl's forces who left with him departed.

 

Even in the face of a Templar attack, this is a Bad Deal. The unique and significant ability of the Templars is their anti-magical abilities. The best defense against them is mundane military power- or blood magic. Alexius's benefits of the former are negligable- Tevinter has neither the forces nor the logistics nor the interest nor the time to move an army to Redcliffe. And if Fiona is counting on Tevinter to win the battle with blood magic, then the question of 'where is the blood coming from' becomes highly important. Certainly the Tevinters aren't going to kill themselves, and presumably they aren't going to kill their new mage-slaves, so betting on a blood magic defense would be Fiona betting on the blood-sacrifice of the villagers of Redcliffe- a crime compounding her betrayal of Ferelden's prior aid.

 

Fiona or Alexius might claim that Alexius's coup won them the castle for security, but this is a losing proposition. There has never been any credible threat or indication that the Arl of Redcliffe was going to put up the drawbridges and let templars butcher the town and mages. Redcliffe Castle, with the backing of Ferelden, was a safe haven that could reliably be expected to hold off a Templar seige until the Royal Ferelden Army could bring in forces to break the siege.  Kicking out the Arl (or, more accurately, not intervening as he was deposed) turned Redcliffe Castle from a safe-haven into a death trap- unlike the Templars, the Kingdom of Ferelden could be reasonably expected to lay seige to reclaim their castle. No other visible power could have or would have had reason to intervene, and the only reason Redcliffe didn't fall was because the Venatori kick off the apocalypse- a meta-argument that damns the mages far more than defends them if raised.

 

As soon as Alexius launched his coup of the castle, Redcliffe was a trap for the mages that needed to be escaped as soon as possible. It was a self-defeating move that should have immediately raised red flags amongst the mages- the only rational for ousting the arl (to take over the castle) would instead only ostracize, alienate, and give them more enemies who, unlike the Templars, actually would have a force that could lay seige to the castle.