113758 réponses à ce sujet

[Ashaantha]

hahaha I can see that too, lynroy seeing how much damage she can do to her mates in an mp game.

[Lynroy: Final Edition]

Doesn't stop me from shooting, punching, or throwing grenades at them all the same.

[Ashaantha]

It's the thought that counts!

[Serza]

Let it be known that ONI are idiots and SPARTAN-II's are the only cool thing they ever came up with. Unless, you know, I bumped into the most stupid ONI operative... ever.

 

To my defence, however, an hour is hardly enough to Trespass. I'm a bloody perfectionist, and that bollocks is going to prevent me to finish Trepasser before the heat death of the Universe.

[akbogert]

I'll keep with the spoiler tag theme here :-) And I'll try to break it up a little for ease of reading's sake.

Spoiler

I really do recommend you give Quantic Dream's games a shot for yourself, and I think you'll see where I'm going with this. But I'll give a few more examples of what I'm talking about as we go on.

Quantic Dream and QTE:
When I think QTE, I think of God of War, Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm, things like that, games where QTEs are basically cut scenes that require you to enter some stock on screen prompt. And if you fail, well, try try again. So I'm not particularly fond of those, moreso in GoW. Heavy Rain in particular is never remotely similar to that. Then I think of Shenmue, one of my other top three games all time, with Final Fantasy 7. Shenmue included the occasional QTE, basically in place of a few cut scenes, but they mimicked the actual combat controls, and you learned new moves to go and practice up, things like that. Shenmue got a little crazy with them towards the end of Shenmue 2, but wow, what a game. I seriously recommend those as well if you get the chance. Heavy Rain rarely uses a form of QTE, primarily for combat, but combat itself is rare, and Heavy Rain does something really special with it.

In Heavy Rain, gameplay is designed around the idea that everything is intuitive. So if you're manipulating an object, combing your hair, driving, crawling, climbing, juggling, or trying to get your kid ready for school, every input of your controller corresponds to how you would intuitively translate that movement to the controller. It makes use of motion sensitivity as well. What you choose to do is up to you the vast majority of the time, how fast or slow, how successful or unsuccessful. How you spend your time and the physical choices you make can greatly alter the narrative, and everything has a consequence, along with every thought you choose or dialogue response you make. There are something like 24 vastly different ending character resolutions for the primary cast, and those are further interspersed, depending on how your characters interact throughout the game, not to mention all the small and large ripple effects throughout the game. Then there are what people call QTEs. These aren't like any other QTEs. They are dependent on player choice, they're in keeping with the same intuitive movement gameplay throughout the game. They do not stop, do not repeat, and each moment of the scene changes according to success or failure, and the snap decisions you make. The entire narrative of the game can be drastically altered right in the middle of these "QTEs". Your primary characters in the story can actually die on the spot, and there's no game over and no repeat, try again. Any wounds you take remain throughout the entire game, and effect everything from the way your characters move and interact to whole subplot resolutions. Seriously, anybody crying QTE about this is vastly underselling it, or they just plain haven't played it. Or they might be frustrated with an outcome, that's possible. This is seriously the best, most engaging gameplay I've ever played. I wish more games would attempt gameplay on this level. Honestly I think there's just too much time and effort involved. They spend like five years dev time per game.

Tell Tale:
Probably my second favorite developer right now, because of the focus on strong branching narrative. It doesn't even approach what Quantic Dream does, though. Tell Tale's games are actually built on a common gameplay mechanic, stories wrapped around that. It's just that that mechanic is point and click adventure games. I recommend playing their Sam and Max games as well, where branching narrative wasn't even a thing. They were just well written, snappily paced adventure games. Probably the funniest games I've played. They've gotta be like one of two or three remaining adventure game studios with any real budget.

Then there's Witcher 3, that you mentioned. Practically every major plot point, character relationship, and sidequest has major branching, or in the monster hunting sidequests, the potential for a twist ending. The reason the game is so great, really, comes down to branching narrative and top class presentation. The same game with static story wouldn't get anywhere near this response. The gameplay, as great as it is, is basically playing catch up with the storytelling.

For a game built primarily around great gameplay to the detriment of the story, I'd look at MGS V. It's still got some great moments, but its story is almost entirely contained in a sparse set of very good cutscenes, and whether you treat Quiet well or not on missions. MGS 4 is a far better game overall in my opinion, because the story carries strongly throughout and the gameplay adjusts to suit it, rather than the other way round. Which doesn't mean I don't really enjoy MGS V; it's just my least favorite of the series.

Other great games where the gameplay followed after the storytelling (not branching narrative specifically): Steambot Chronicles, Bayonetta, Final Fantasy 7 & 8, Xenogears series, Saints Row 3rd and 4th (crazy stuff, but think about the design process and you'll see what I mean), Blazblue fighting series

Gameplay first games: Obviously any puzzle game, DA:I, Gears of War or any of these basic shooters, sports titled, DOA and plenty of fighting games

The trend there is that a game that starts and really ends with gameplay tends to try to find one golden system and stick with it, focus on environments after that (as sandboxes or a prop house), and ends up without much or undermined narrative strength. Gears came off that way to me from the beginning, so I never had any interest in it. DA:I, the focus on just tons of combat and giant sandboxes really undercut the strong companion story content. They chose to focus their efforts and budget far more on gameplay and level design than they should have. The games that are story first (or crazy notion first in SR's case) tend to throw the kitchen sink at you, but everything involved serves the story, the characters, the world. Mixing up the gameplay experience is a driving goal, not a throw in. I generally much prefer those games. They don't get old and stale the way these primarily mechanic based games tend to. They don't lose my interest halfway through.

There are exceptions, y'know, DOA or Tekken, I'll probably always like them just as much, but at the same time, those are fighting games where the variety of gameplay from character to character is a focus, and those details do follow their character concepts, and their place in the story. They're a little different breed. Sports games, like NBA 2K, it's generally as much or more about improvements in story elements, the Franchise, MyPlayer, etc. modes year over year as any gameplay improvement at this point. Not always, but typically.

So I know that idea is out there, "cinema envy", but I don't prescribe to it at all. I think if you're ambitious enough, you're going to get labeled by people that don't appreciate what you're doing. I think the idea of "cinema envy" basically comes from a combination of low expectations and genre snobbery, honestly. Great games can also be great narratives, great interactive storytelling platforms. That doesn't make them any less a game or less than any movie in that area. Having cinematic qualities or the presence of cut scenes does nothing to dimenish the game and can seriously enhance the storytelling at the same time. It's more that some people try to pigeonhole what constitutes a game or takes too much influence from other media, and all that really does is put nonsense constraints on the medium. The industry would be a lot worse off without those games, or had they lived within those same boundaries.

 

Spoilered for SO MANY WORDS

 

Spoiler

Heh. Well I do think it’s worth noting up front that we will probably remain in disagreement, since the concept of cinema envy is one I wholeheartedly agree with, and since I first read it applied to MGS4, which is notorious for literally being a movie at times (and nothing is as antithetical to player agency as requiring him or her to watch a 71-minute cutscene sequence). Any story which the storyteller feels can’t be told without taking the controls away from a player for that long is, by definition, not an interactive story. No one is saying that MGS4 is a bad experience (it is a very popular game), but to say that Kojima didn’t essentially become a film director for large segments of MGS4 (it boasts over eight hours of video footage, which is as long as some entire games) would simply be indefensible.

 

Now about Quantic Dream, I obviously can’t try to discuss the merits or problems with games I haven’t played. It’s good to hear from someone who really loves the games because while I know Heavy Rain in particular was popular I have rarely heard much about its gameplay other than the “nothing but QTE” bit. And it is likely that at least some of the complaining has to do with the simplicity of the input, which you’ve described as intuitive. Some people feel like if they aren’t having to hit a whole bunch of buttons or do complex things, the game isn’t really a game. You’re saying that the simplicity actually aids player agency/immersion, it sounds like. I’ll reserve actual opinions about the game until I play it, but I will say that even if I were to end up agreeing 100% with your feelings about it, that would make a game like Heavy Rain the exception that proves the rule. In most cases, games emphasizing storytelling do not provide true variety in storytelling outcomes, or they do so to the detriment of non-storytelling aspects of the game (e.g., weak and/or nonexistent combat, limited exploration).

 

I have loved every TTG I’ve played. I don’t think anything I have to say about taking advantage of the game medium (or failing to do so) should be interpreted as a criticism of games which I don’t think are very game-like. But I think it is difficult to really claim that the handful of quick response moments in the games (like swiping left or right to dodge an object) are interesting gameplay. I think the games tend to feel like really great choose-your-own-adventure books where you occasionally have to move across the screen and look at a few items until you find the right item to progress. In most cases I think the experience would have been equally fulfilling without those “game” parts — if it had mostly consisted of cutscenes and dialogue choices. Such a product would be a true “interactive story,” but not necessarily a game. Ironically it would be all the things that make us love their games, but would probably be criticized by players for not having enough for players to do.

 

The caveat to that, of course, is the rare time when TTG actually makes you feel clever for figuring out how to piece together elements from the environment, giving your virtual tourism an actual importance. It’s rare, but it’s the kind of thing that would be lost if you moved to the truly streamlined format I just described.

 

I’ll have more to say about Witcher 3 once I’ve played it (which I am hoping to do soon). I do indeed get the sense that storytelling was a major focus for CDPR, which underscores the point we’ve both made a few times: that the best storytelling games tend to turn the gameplay into a chore one must do in order to access more story (I like your phrasing “playing catch up with the storytelling”). The fact that RPG players literally refer to most combat as “grinding” illustrates the fact that player enjoyment of combat is often less important in games where story is the driving force. Games weaker on story (like Call of Duty) make a point of creating fun gameplay moments and smarter AI (companion/enemy) in a way you just very rarely see in story-driven games. Left 4 Dead is a prime example of this: we don’t get much of a story, but we do get procedurally-generated spaces in L4D2, real-time monitoring of performance to adjust difficulty/frequency of attacks, variety of weapon options and play styles.

 

One thing I’ve wondered about a lot is how one defines the difference between a toy and a game. I think it may come down to how much storytelling is done to the player versus by the player. The more sandbox a game is, the more it starts to feel like a toy: the developer hasn’t come up with a story for you, but has equipped you to tell a variety of stories of your own. Games like Little Big Planet and Minecraft are maybe the most archetypical examples.

 

I do think it’s important to consider — and this goes into an entirely different realm of discussion — that storytelling can be done without exposition. As poor as the actual plotting and dialogue in the first two Gears of War games may have been, the world itself told incredible stories. Environments speak to history in a clear way, and the world feels lived-in. This was less so in Gears 2, which spent so much time underground, but the point is that it’s not like the creators just wanted a chainsaw machine gun and put little thought into anything beyond the shooting. So “focus on environments…as sandboxes or a prop house” isn’t necessarily bad. That’s basic theatrical design, and a good theater set is believable from the angle you set before the audience. All that said, I think “undermined” is a good word to use about narrative strength there. It felt like it could have been better had they focused more on it, and that feeling is justified by how much better the story was when they did focus on it.

 

You discussed DAI and said they focused more on gameplay and level design “than they should have,” which I find interesting. I could understand if you had said “than I would have preferred.” As someone who loved DAI’s mix of pure environmental combat and character-driven moments between segments of combat, I can’t say I completely understand the criticism. Some elements (like the shards and the associated temple) are, I’d agree, a bit too estranged from the main plot to really make sense within the story, but I don’t think on the whole the exploration and combat were massive missteps for the game they were going for. Whenever combat got “old and stale” I would go do some companion stuff. When I got tired of chatting with people, I’d go out and fight. I liked that whatever I was in the mood for doing, I never felt like I was playing the less important part of the game. 

[Inverse_Twilight]

No posts for over 4 hours? I'm a little disappointed in the DQ right now

 

Have a pic of my Sole Survivor to bump the thread (Warning: Dialogue Spoilers for Cait Romance in FO4)

Spoiler

[Ashaantha]

*rises from her nap*

 

I ran out of things to say, so fell asleep. lol

[cindercatz]

Spoilers.. can't.. look..

@akbogert I enjoyed the read, will do my best to get back to you tomorrow on it. :-) When I've got enough time etc.

EVERYBODY ABOUT MY DAD

THANK YOU! Have a drink on me. It's a beautiful Christmas. :-)

[Duelist]

Just been making up for all the running I haven't done this week.
That and sleep. Precious, precious sleep.

Although, I could use a second opinion on this:

Spoiler

Black or Blonde?

[Ashaantha]

Opinion? if for hair colour: I love blondes, it's that simple.

[Inverse_Twilight]

Although, I could use a second opinion on this:

Spoiler

Black or Blonde?

I think she looks better with black hair 

[Al Foley]

Helllllllloooo

[Ashaantha]

*tackles Foley and wraps tinsel around him*

[Al Foley]

*tackles Foley and wraps tinsel around him*

Oof.  *is tackled...and now silvery*  

 

Hello Storm.

 

So I saw Star Wars.

[Ashaantha]

About time, i haven't seen it yet but have happily been spoiled a bit. Mostly because internet and mmo meaning people really can't keep themselves quiet about it hahaha

I don't mind.

[CoM Solaufein]

Saw Fallout 4 stuff on here. I'm on my third game. Was going to wait to play a third game after the GECK was released and modders can make awesome mods, but well, game three it is. Miss Inquisition though. hmm

[Inverse_Twilight]

Oof.  *is tackled...and now silvery*  

 

Hello Storm.

 

So I saw Star Wars.

*puts a star on Foley's head* You're our Christmas tree, now

 

I heard that Star Wars is really good. How did you like it?

[Al Foley]

About time, i haven't seen it yet but have happily been spoiled a bit. Mostly because internet and mmo meaning people really can't keep themselves quiet about it hahaha

I don't mind.

Its quite well done.

[Ashaantha]

woot new christmas tree. People keep knocking over or dismantling the ones I put up. it's almost a game hehe

[Al Foley]

*puts a star on Foley's head* You're a Christmas tree now

 

I heard that Star Wars is really good. How did you like it?

I really liked it.    Right now my third favorite of the 7.  But that could go up because the more I think about it the more I love it.  And I did a review in the SWs thingy and I did not cover a lot of what I wanted to cover. 

[CoM Solaufein]

Better be. Plan on seeing it tomorrow.

[Ashaantha]

on SW movie: I've heard it's well done, and worth the viewing. I am personally waiting until it's on disc solely because cinemas are far too crowded for anti-social, easily anxious, little ol' me.

 

I'm chugging along through Fallout 4 too, I'm as horrible at it as I thought I would be, at least the death animations are entertaining as heck lol.

[CoM Solaufein]

I'm old school. I saw the originals in the theaters when I was a kid. One of my fondest memories is my mother taking me to Empire Strikes Back, the best of all of them.

 

Fallout 4 I had to get used to the FPS type combat since I never played a true FPS game. Starting to get the knack of it

[Al Foley]

on SW movie: I've heard it's well done, and worth the viewing. I am personally waiting until it's on disc solely because cinemas are far too crowded for anti-social, easily anxious, little ol' me.

 

I'm chugging along through Fallout 4 too, I'm as horrible at it as I thought I would be, at least the death animations are entertaining as heck lol.

 

I'll pick up FO 4...one day.  

I'm old school. I saw the originals in the theaters when I was a kid. One of my fondest memories is my mother taking me to Empire Strikes Back, the best of all of them.

...I disagree.

[Ashaantha]

I only watched the first 3 released on VHS at home movie nights.