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[Linkenski]

Obviously he still somewhat contradicts what Sovereign said in some areas, but I'm playing through the end of ME1 again right now and I instantly noticed something when talking to Vigil.

He talks about the Keepers and how they were probably indoctrinated slaves, but the interesting thing is that he also says they're directly controlled by the citadel, which actually makes sense in co ordinance with the Catalyst being part of the citadel and vice versa. I can actually play through ME1 and think "the reapers were always controlled by the citadel." without losing my suspension of disbelief.

Now I'm not excusing the ending itself. It's still garbage IMO, but from a lore standpoint I think it all makes sense.

[Valmar]

The catalyst is the citadel. It is a part of him. Using the keepers to maintain physical maintenance makes sense but the fact that the catalyst cannot activate the relay makes ZERO sense. Why is it Soverign can hug the tower and interact with the systems to activate the relay but the catalyst, which essentially IS the Citadel, cannot? It's a part of you, your home, yet you have no control over its systems without using the keepers?

 

Coincidentally even if the catalyst DID have control of the keepers... it still doesn't actually hold well, it still has plotholes even with that. Lets pretend for a moment that it makes sense that the catalyst has no control of the relays but does control the keepers... the protheans changed the keepers before our cycle even really began. In 50k years the catalyst didn't realize its tools had been altered and were no longer under its control? Doesn't fit - even EDI has control of the Normandy systems without the support of organics.

 

"The keepers have changed and evolved so they only respond to the Citadel itself; they are now no longer under Reaper control and pose no threat to anyone.

Seeing as the keepers are now useless to the Reapers, Sovereign sought to replace them with a more controllable race, like the geth, believing synthetic races were more predictable and malleable to its wishes."

 

So the keepers no longer respond to the reapers, only the Citadel. Except... the catalyst is the Citadel. So they should still respond to the reapers since the citadel is part of the Reaper God.

 

Sorry, the catalyst still makes no sense in ME1 to me at all and stands as one of the biggest plotholes in the trilogy. I appreciate the effort but it falls short, imo.

[TMA LIVE]

Yeah, when you consider the fact that the Protheans disabled the Keepers from starting the invasion thousands of years ago, if there really was an AI on the Citadel, it'd see them do it, and then have Sov or the Collectors undo it before the Asari started space flight. Not only that, it wouldn't need the Keepers to start anything. The AI, who controls the Citadel, should be able to control the Relay inside as well, and not need Keepers to activate it. It also wouldn't require Saren. And for those who like to believe the Catalyst simply lives on the Citadel, but has no control over it (besides what the Keepers do), again, it would see what the Protheans did to the Keepers, and tell the Collectors to come over and fix it.

 

That's why, if Bioware does any expanding on the Catalyst in the future, I really do hope they have it where the Catalyst was dormant the entire time, until the Reapers took in back in ME3. Because that's the only explanation that makes sense. The AI can't be active, or else it might be spotted by the Citadel population. It also might break itself from being run for too long (even computers need to be in sleep mode). So it goes into dormant after a cycle is over, and a new one begins, only to be awaken when Sov tells the Keepers to begin the new Cycle. However, since it was offline, it didn't detect the surviving protheans disabling the Keepers "Begin Harvest" shift.

 

So when Saren was trying to open the Relays to dark space in ME1, he was really unknowingly trying to wake up the Catalyst. And was stopped.

 

From then on, it was Harb leading the Reapers for the first time. Which explains why everything about how the Reapers operated was in questions, because they were never programmed to be put in this situation. Harb and the other Reapers were not programmed to think like War Generals. Harb is only programmed to Harvest, and that is why it was Harvesting ahead of schedule. And that is why the Reapers were focused on Harvesting instead of just heading to the Citadel to turn the Catalyst back on and locking the Relays. Harb might have even expected the Catalyst being dead from not getting in contact with it. And if it wasn't for their overpoweredness and numbers, they would've have been beaten by any conventional fleet.

 

But again, none of this is confirmed. So for all we know, Bioware might make ME4, and say "Actually the Catalyst was awake since ME1, had complete control over the Citadel, and we don't care about how they messes up past lore".

[Linkenski]

I always assumed that the Catalyst's only ability was to send signals that controls the reapers and the indoctrinated forces, not directly control the physical aspects of the Citadel... But yeah, it does seem contrived how it apparently can't send the signal that opens or closes the arms or control the relays when the press of a button (which is just a manual way of sending a signal) works.

A shame. I really just wanted this franchise to come full circle, and i'd have let many of its flaws go if just the Reaper story had worked out which was my main concern since the Vigil revelation in ME1.

I do hope they find some way to subvert some of the less great things with NME. I honestly don't mind if they retcon the endings, as long as it's better. As far as I'm concerned there's only 2 choices as it is. I can't see any way Synthesis is going to be shown in detail without being completely terrible.

[TMA LIVE]

I always assumed that the Catalyst's only ability was to send signals that controls the reapers and the indoctrinated forces, not directly control the physical aspects of the Citadel... But yeah, it does seem contrived how it apparently can't send the signal that opens or closes the arms or control the relays when the press of a button (which is just a manual way of sending a signal) works.

A shame. I really just wanted this franchise to come full circle, and i'd have let many of its flaws go if just the Reaper story had worked out which was my main concern since the Vigil revelation in ME1.

I do hope they find some way to subvert some of the less great things with NME. I honestly don't mind if they retcon the endings, as long as it's better. As far as I'm concerned there's only 2 choices as it is. I can't see any way Synthesis is going to be shown in detail without being completely terrible.

 

Well, I don't think we'll get a retcon in ME4, since they claim it takes place during the ME timeline, and not after. I'd only see them retconning if ME4's protagonist somehow finds Time travel, goes back in time, and stops the Reapers during or before the invasion Days of Future Past style.

 

Though if they do make an ME after ME3, I imagine they'll pick an ending, and make that one the "canon" for this new series.

[themikefest]

The catalyst does have control of physical parts of the Citadel. Its able to use the elevator to bring Shepard to the decision chamber and it lifts up those ramps that Shepard uses to pick control or destroy

[Ithurael]

Yeah...the catalyst/starjar creates the worst plotholes in the trilogy. I touched on this in an earlier thread

http://forum.bioware...ing/?p=18388908

http://forum.bioware...ing/?p=18395334

 

It would require a LOT of headcanon to make starjar work.

[TMA LIVE]

Yeah...the catalyst/starjar creates the worst plotholes in the trilogy. I touched on this in an earlier thread

http://forum.bioware...ing/?p=18388908

http://forum.bioware...ing/?p=18395334

 

It would require a LOT of headcanon to make starjar work.

 

Yep. That's why I hated Casey's choice on the Citadel DLC. Originally, Patrick Weekes and John Dombrow were thinking about making another DLC that would explain more elements about the ending and the Reapers, but instead Casey dropped that, and said "We're done explaining the ending. Just make something fun. Oh, like fighting Shepard's evil clone as the last story for Commander Shepard? Yeah, that's a great idea Patrick. Go with that."

 

So now we got this thing in ME3 that'll never be explained, and plotholes that'll probably be forever unfilled, and Harb forever taking a back seat after all the setup in ME2. And even if they were fixed in a future ME game, they should've been filled in ME3.

[Linkenski]

Smart move by Casey. With every piece of ending context DLC Bioware was losing every ounce of credibility they had left. It had to be in the original product to be acceptable or good, although Extended Cut was an exception for being free and unplanned.

The damage had already been done, and I'm already pissed they ended up making Leviathan DLC to add something that should have been in the game originally. It's funny how much they want to go the long way around the issue, yet they didn't want to just redo the last 10 minutes of the story entirely.

[TMA LIVE]

Smart move by Casey. With every piece of ending context DLC Bioware was losing every ounce of credibility they had left. It had to be in the original product to be acceptable or good, although Extended Cut was an exception for being free and unplanned.

The damage had already been done, and I'm already pissed they ended up making Leviathan DLC to add something that should have been in the game originally. It's funny how much they want to go the long way around the issue, yet they didn't want to just redo the last 10 minutes of the story entirely.

 

No I don't consider it a smart move. Especially when the story for Citadel was stupid (Yep, I'm gonna replace Shepard and his entire crew because I'm somehow better because I have no friends???). And Omega being an original story did not change anyone's hatred for the ending, or give them any reason to buy it if it had no impact on the main story or the ending. As a matter of fact, the biggest complaint about Omega has was it was so self contained, it's like it never happened. But anyways, when you have the options to fix lore mistakes, and instead leave them as unfixed, you're telling me I should never buy your games if I care about your lore. Why? Because if you don't care about your lore, then why should I?

 

Because that's now my feelings towards the ME series. They're consistently inconsistent, and I don't see that changing. I feel like every ME game is gonna be treated like the other games before and after doesn't matter, and make up stuff on the spot. I see ME4 coming out, and having the Catalyst dance around in front of the ME4's protagonist, saying "I'm just hear for laughs, until Shepard shows up to pick an ending".

 

I don't care if they wanted the story to end with what we got with the current ending, as long as it works with what came before.

 

The fact of the matter is, no matter what you think of the ending, they chose to keep them. And I'm fine with that because I do like the concept of the endings. But if that's the path they wanna walk, they better explain it and make it work with the current lore using whatever DLC sources they're allowed to give. Them choosing not to I consider a bad thing, especially for future projects. Why you might ask? Because if the same thing happens again, guess how it's gonna be fixed?

[Linkenski]

Look the way I see the Citadel DLC is as not being part of the ME3 story. That's just something they consciously did to not alienate a majority of fans. I don't think the Citadel is meant to be taken seriously - I think it's common sense that it is so tonally different and in another genre so it goes without saying. It's as if it's the characters are actors and they are cast in a different movie, and it was a breather to take me away from all the negative feelings I had for ME3.

If you're one of those who looks for canonization in everything, don't... Just don't do it for the Citadel DLC. It's a literal apology and also a love letter to every fan. No it doesn't fix the problems in ME3's plot, but it exists beside of all the problems and it effectively helped me forget or at least lay aside all my negative emotions towards the ending and the rest of ME3's wonky plot.

I've seen a lot of fans and even a writer (Mac Walters) take the content of Citadel DLC too seriously to the point where it just defies my common sense. Maya Brooks does not need to be canon. The DLC doesn't have to be canon in order to be good or even enjoyable.

I'd much, much rather stick with this than having another DLC hamfistedly and retroactively kick me in the balls trying to tell me that the ending actually makes sense or that its good. It was a lost cause as soon as they went with the whole "clarification and closure" schtick.

[TMA LIVE]

I'm afraid I do consider Citedal as canon (I mean, Mac wrote a whole comic series about Maya Brooks. You can't get more canon then that). But I do agree with not taking it seriously. ME1 was a very serious game, and it tried being as grounded as possible. While ME2 and ME3 abandoned that, and became more comic book logic in style. I consider Mass Effect now in the same seriousness as Farscape, where I can only take things serious from the Soap Opera and drama side of thing, but everything else was more style over substance. And Citadel is just the comic relief episode. I look at Citadel as Bioware's way to telling those who over criticized the series "Hey... Don't take everything so seriously."

[Valmar]

No one should avoid accepting Citadel as canonical content just because its lighthearted and silly.

 

Canon is canon. You don't have to take everything seriously to accept that.

[Bakgrind]

 

It would require a LOT of headcanon to make starjar work.

 

That really sums it up and shows that starjar really is the bane of the series and that is my main beef with it. The suits at EA wanted moar Mass Effect because they know the fans want moar Mass Effect and the developers at Bioware wrote it in such a way so that series can not go forward with out the ending being retconned. As it stands now the series can only go sideways or backwards instead of forward.

[Linkenski]

I'm afraid I do consider Citedal as canon (I mean, Mac wrote a whole comic series about Maya Brooks. You can't get more canon then that). But I do agree with not taking it seriously. ME1 was a very serious game, and it tried being as grounded as possible. While ME2 and ME3 abandoned that, and became more comic book logic in style. I consider Mass Effect now in the same seriousness as Farscape, where I can only take things serious from the Soap Opera and drama side of thing, but everything else was more style over substance. And Citadel is just the comic relief episode. I look at Citadel as Bioware's way to telling those who over criticized the series "Hey... Don't take everything so seriously."

Mac also wrote the ending and the whole child bullshit to begin with. He's not a very smart writer.

[Cuttleshark]

I have also began doing a replay of the whole series, and I came to the forum just to speak on this matter, so it's convenient that I find this thread - but my opinion is quite the opposite.

In ME1, it's established that Sovereign needs to send a signal to the Keepers, to let the other Reapers in. However, Keepers are also established as normally taking signals only from the Citadel. So if Catalyst is this commanding Reaper AI that has been residing in the Citadel all along, why does it require the Sovereign to send the signal to the Keepers? Wouldn't it be much easier for it to send the signal directly?

There are two more plotholes ME3 creates in light of the conversation with the Prothean VI in Ilos, I'll just dump them here as I've already began:

So, when it is brought up that Saren used the beacons to get to learn about Ilos, the VI explains that they did not fully understand indoctrination, so could not fathom it'd lead to this. But in ME3, we learn that the indoctrination was so sophisticated, that Cerberus-esque agents sabotaged the Crucible because they were led to believe that they should rather control the Reapers than destroy them (and this is something the Prothean VI can presumably know) - how can they still not fathom that the beacons could be used by indoctrinated agents?

Well, it's misleading to call this one a plothole, but still; the fact that the Reapers are vulnerable in the dark space is brought up againd and again, as if it means something - I feel like Bioware's original intention involved catching the Reapers while they are vulnerable rather than a huge, galaxy wide confrontation; which might be less climactic than what ME3 gave us, but from a story-telling perspective, much better than the huge Deus Ex Machina Reaper kill switch.

So I gotta say, playing ME1 makes me think that ME3 was a huge dump on the series. There are probably a lot more plotholes, but I was just playing Ilos, so these were glaring.

Edit: Reading the thread completely now, it seems like someone above me brought up my first point (which is the one that annoyed me the post), so I'm too late. Kudos to him, though.

[TMA LIVE]

Mac also wrote the ending and the whole child bullshit to begin with. He's not a very smart writer.

But its still canon.

[Linkenski]

Personally speaking I always take the whole idea of something being "canon" with a grain of salt. It's 'officially canon' because Bioware made it so, but to me none of ME3 is really canon since half the writing staff had been switched out, and the only real consistency to find in the game is in Mordin's arc.

 

As far as I'm concerned canon doesn't really matter too much to me. It never did. I decide what I consider to be canon or not and it doesn't have to be called headcanon. I'd rather just not use the term "canon" at all.

[DirtySHISN0]

Obviously he still somewhat contradicts what Sovereign said in some areas, but I'm playing through the end of ME1 again right now and I instantly noticed something when talking to Vigil.

He talks about the Keepers and how they were probably indoctrinated slaves, but the interesting thing is that he also says they're directly controlled by the citadel, which actually makes sense in co ordinance with the Catalyst being part of the citadel and vice versa. I can actually play through ME1 and think "the reapers were always controlled by the citadel." without losing my suspension of disbelief.

Now I'm not excusing the ending itself. It's still garbage IMO, but from a lore standpoint I think it all makes sense.

Which came first, the reapers or the citadel?

[Valmar]

Which came first, the reapers or the citadel?

 

The reapers. The Citadel, being the backbone of the relay network, was only created later to make the harvesting cycles more efficient.

[Linkenski]

My theory is that the citadel was gradually constructed so that at first it was just the Catalyst AI blue box and perhaps an underlying structure, but then after the reapers began they expanded the construction of the Catalyst to create a space station and the relays.

[MrFob]

Or maybe it was a Leviathan construction. Since the Leviathans already controlled basically the entire galaxy, one would assume the Mass Relay Network predates the reapers. Maybe the catalyst was only added (or developed/constructed) there.

[Valmar]

Or maybe it was a Leviathan construction. Since the Leviathans already controlled basically the entire galaxy, one would assume the Mass Relay Network predates the reapers. Maybe the catalyst was only added (or developed/constructed) there.

 

The reapers claim they built the mass relays and citadel. Leviathan also says it was the reapers that made the Mass Relays.

[Vazgen]

All the problems come from one stupid line - "The Citadel is part of me" which contradicts a line said a few moments ago - "The Citadel is my home" (unless we're talking about some philosophical aspects to the question - "my home is a part of me"...). Remove that line and we can have the Catalyst AI be entirely passive without any control over the Citadel's functions (except, perhaps, a few near its core (the elevator).

[Lumix19]

Yeah, when you consider the fact that the Protheans disabled the Keepers from starting the invasion thousands of years ago, if there really was an AI on the Citadel, it'd see them do it, and then have Sov or the Collectors undo it before the Asari started space flight. Not only that, it wouldn't need the Keepers to start anything. The AI, who controls the Citadel, should be able to control the Relay inside as well, and not need Keepers to activate it. It also wouldn't require Saren. And for those who like to believe the Catalyst simply lives on the Citadel, but has no control over it (besides what the Keepers do), again, it would see what the Protheans did to the Keepers, and tell the Collectors to come over and fix it.
 
That's why, if Bioware does any expanding on the Catalyst in the future, I really do hope they have it where the Catalyst was dormant the entire time, until the Reapers took in back in ME3. Because that's the only explanation that makes sense. The AI can't be active, or else it might be spotted by the Citadel population. It also might break itself from being run for too long (even computers need to be in sleep mode). So it goes into dormant after a cycle is over, and a new one begins, only to be awaken when Sov tells the Keepers to begin the new Cycle. However, since it was offline, it didn't detect the surviving protheans disabling the Keepers "Begin Harvest" shift.
 
So when Saren was trying to open the Relays to dark space in ME1, he was really unknowingly trying to wake up the Catalyst. And was stopped.
 
From then on, it was Harb leading the Reapers for the first time. Which explains why everything about how the Reapers operated was in questions, because they were never programmed to be put in this situation. Harb and the other Reapers were not programmed to think like War Generals. Harb is only programmed to Harvest, and that is why it was Harvesting ahead of schedule. And that is why the Reapers were focused on Harvesting instead of just heading to the Citadel to turn the Catalyst back on and locking the Relays. Harb might have even expected the Catalyst being dead from not getting in contact with it. And if it wasn't for their overpoweredness and numbers, they would've have been beaten by any conventional fleet.
 
But again, none of this is confirmed. So for all we know, Bioware might make ME4, and say "Actually the Catalyst was awake since ME1, had complete control over the Citadel, and we don't care about how they messes up past lore".

The Catalyst being dormant is a good explanation. If it is the collective consciousness of the Reapers then their retreat to Dark Space and subsequent hibernation probably forces it into slumber too.