Questa discussione ha avuto 36 risposte

[nos_astra]

How is that a good explanation?

The answer to why the Catalyst would choose the course of action ist still "to reconcile the ME1 setup with the ME3 ending".

Why is the vastly superior AI afraid of being discovered while monitoring the situation?
Toddler logic? If I can't see them they can't see me either?

Why is it so hard to accept that these two bookends just don't work together?

I like the question who really created the Citadel and the relay network. Sure, the game said the Reapers. But how did the Leviathan travel the massive distances? And why was it deemed necessary to re-invent the wheel? How did the Catalyst turn the Leviathans into Reapers anyway? Did it secretly indoctrinate an army? But how did it manage to get them system by system then?

That the Catalyst ties into ME1 well is a stretch of epic proportions. Even a generous amount of headcanon on barely can hold this patchwork together.

[RVallant]

The catalyst is the citadel. It is a part of him. Using the keepers to maintain physical maintenance makes sense but the fact that the catalyst cannot activate the relay makes ZERO sense. Why is it Soverign can hug the tower and interact with the systems to activate the relay but the catalyst, which essentially IS the Citadel, cannot? It's a part of you, your home, yet you have no control over its systems without using the keepers?

 

See below in the next quote, but it appears to me that the Catalyst doesn't have control over the Citadel as a whole, it's most likely restricted to the top level and has signals that are sent to activate the Keepers.

 

Reasoning for this? (from below) - When the Prothean's were invaded they had time to wipe certain parts of their census and databases that were left on the Citadel - If StarChild had access to everything it would imply he would have had this information pre-wipe, meaning there would be no reason Ilos would be overlooked.

 

So yeah, it seems like he doesn't have complete access and/or perceived that it was safer to use the Keepers to lull everything in a false sense of security. The key thing with the Reapers is they appear to value stealth over an entire 50k cycle, Shepard is the FIRST to ever arrive at his door (minimum of ONE billion years and no one else managed it!) so it seems that this set up worked perfectly in terms of ensuring non-detection.

 

Furthermore, we all know the keepers are enigmatic species that self-destruct when physically bothered and even when affected by signals that are NOT from the Citadel - It seems to me that there are TWO signals;

 

1) A general citadel systems signal

 

This could be anything from the Citadel systems -for example clean-up duties, maintenance and any protocol signals that may activate throughout the 50k cycle.

 

2) Reaper signals (sent through the Citadel)

 

This would be the signal sent by the StarChild/Sovereign to inform the Keepers to activate the relay and unleash hell. This is the signal that the Protheans 'changed' - several ways this could happen 

 

a) They changed the signal itself (This is the in-game explanation, but nothing is said as to WHAT the signal is, we assume its a radio/tech signal but it could be anything.)

 

They changed the way the signal was received (possible, not stated in game though.)

 

So the Reaper invasion signal gets ignored and we're told the Keepers have switched to ignoring all Reaper-based signals and only following Citadel signals, so it might be that the Reaper signal piggybacked as a Citadel signal and the Protheans changed it so the Keeper's saw it as a completely new signal, or adjusted to consider that signal an 'error' and not respond to it (the 'evolution' theory postulated by the Reapers and co?)

 

So why didn't Starchild fix that signal when it was first sabotaged? It may very well be he didn't know about it - if someone phoned you once a year, every year and suddenly someone nicked your phone and changed the ringtone you may not notice that change until the following year when they ring you again. It's likely they 'fired and forgot' about the signal and simply didn't realise anything had been changed until 50k years later at the start of ME1, hence the panic and rushing about by Sovereign and co, because really, they only need to use the signal once.

 

As for why they didn't try fixing it, apparently they did and it didn't work.

 

It relying on the Keepers the best way to go about things? Probably not, BUT one things I like about Mass Effect is that the StarChild and the Reapers are actually flawed beings. - I think a lot of people expect them to be 'perfect' because they are AI or whatever, but really they are sort of 'mirrors' to organic species - except they don't rationalise and moralise things, it's ends justify the means - Perhaps the Keepers are a product of that thinking, a bio-organic species made and subjugated in order to fit a role in order to justify the plan and ensure stealth?

 

On that note a final mention; In ME1 we have the Chorban and friends quest about the Keeper signals - we are told that the keepers self-destruct when affected by scans and any attempts to study them - could it be that the reason Chorban and Co were able to scan the Reapers were they used a scanner that was based on or matched the old-Reaper signal? Or a variant of the Citadel signal? I can't remember but seems a curious one.

 

 

 

I have also began doing a replay of the whole series, and I came to the forum just to speak on this matter, so it's convenient that I find this thread - but my opinion is quite the opposite.

In ME1, it's established that Sovereign needs to send a signal to the Keepers, to let the other Reapers in. However, Keepers are also established as normally taking signals only from the Citadel. So if Catalyst is this commanding Reaper AI that has been residing in the Citadel all along, why does it require the Sovereign to send the signal to the Keepers? Wouldn't it be much easier for it to send the signal directly?

 

This one is easy, Sovereign is acting as the vanguard - he sleeps, re-awakens every few hundred years and evaluates the state of the galaxy at large - It is likely he is given a checklist or evaluation protocol whereby, once the galaxy reaches the optimal level he "sends the signal" to the citadel - this would merely be a signal to the StarChild to confirm that everything OUTSIDE of the limits of Citadel civilization is ready for invasion as well.

 

Remember, the Citadel is usually the seat of power but it isn't the only power - We're repeatedly told about the Terminus Systems and the various consortium of species over there, while it may be immaterial the Reapers have been shown to be thorough in their documentation of species that are space-faring in order to not 'miss' anything. The Citadel records cover most of this but there needs to be a free-roaming scout available to find out information that may not necessarily be in the Citadel records or known to citadel species at that time.

There are two more plotholes ME3 creates in light of the conversation with the Prothean VI in Ilos, I'll just dump them here as I've already began:

So, when it is brought up that Saren used the beacons to get to learn about Ilos, the VI explains that they did not fully understand indoctrination, so could not fathom it'd lead to this. But in ME3, we learn that the indoctrination was so sophisticated, that Cerberus-esque agents sabotaged the Crucible because they were led to believe that they should rather control the Reapers than destroy them (and this is something the Prothean VI can presumably know) - how can they still not fathom that the beacons could be used by indoctrinated agents?

 

It may have been the beacon warnings were sent out before full research was done on indoctrination. As we already know the Protheans were splintered and isolated everywhere, Vigil has limited access to data in comparison to the rest of the Empire, if I remember correctly Vigil and Ilos 'went dark' literally the moment the invasion happened as their records needed to be wiped from the Citadel database immediately the moment the invasion started otherwise they would have been found.

Well, it's misleading to call this one a plothole, but still; the fact that the Reapers are vulnerable in the dark space is brought up againd and again, as if it means something - I feel like Bioware's original intention involved catching the Reapers while they are vulnerable rather than a huge, galaxy wide confrontation; which might be less climactic than what ME3 gave us, but from a story-telling perspective, much better than the huge Deus Ex Machina Reaper kill switch.

 

Well, you're vulnerable when you're sleeping aren't you? If you get attacked when you're sleeping you're not going to be at full strength, of course adrenaline helps, but it may very well be that activating from hibernation to an active state requires a massive power-up that kills shields and weapons until the ship is running and that activating shields or weapons during this state would leave them vulnerable to a feedback loop akin to what Sovereign suffered when Saren got killed. This is theory though, I'm not sure if it was covered by a codex entry or two.

So I gotta say, playing ME1 makes me think that ME3 was a huge dump on the series. There are probably a lot more plotholes, but I was just playing Ilos, so these were glaring.

Edit: Reading the thread completely now, it seems like someone above me brought up my first point (which is the one that annoyed me the post), so I'm too late. Kudos to him, though.

 

My reply is in bold in the quotes, but it looks awful on these forums for whatever reason!

 

Modificata da RVallant, 13 febbraio 2015 - 02:44 .

[Valmar]

@RVallant

 

You could had just quoted it and added your response beneath the quote bubble.

 

 

See below in the next quote, but it appears to me that the Catalyst doesn't have control over the Citadel as a whole, it's most likely restricted to the top level and has signals that are sent to activate the Keepers.

 

 

I think you're misunderstanding my argument against the catalyst. You're right that he must not have control over the citadel as a whole. I'm saying the fact that he doesn't makes no sense - he SHOULD. He should have control over it. It is his creation. He is the OS. None of it makes sense.

 

I find this stance of "he was hiding" to be very silly and poorly written. I hate using the word but fact of the matter is it just isn't logical. Was the catalyst dormant with no control over the citadel? Apparently. Does that suddenly make any kind of sense? No. Not within the context of the lore, it does not. Nothing about it makes sense. It is a extremely weak argument used to defend a terribly written element of the plot.

 

The only explanation given to answer the question of why the Catalyst doesn't have control boils down "he was sleeping". Is it possible? Sure. Does it make sense? No, not at all. It's a poor excuse to wave away the glaring plothole and fails to sit within the context of the lore in any meaningful way.

 

In the same vein we should think synthesis makes sense. Clearly jumping into a beam of light CAN change all life in the galaxy. Because thats what happened. So therefore, its technically true. Yet it still doesn't make any sense, does it? Yes, the Catalyst apparently was asleep and powerless the entire time. That doesn't suddenly make any of it make any sense.

 

 

So the Reaper invasion signal gets ignored and we're told the Keepers have switched to ignoring all Reaper-based signals and only following Citadel signals, so it might be that the Reaper signal piggybacked as a Citadel signal and the Protheans changed it so the Keeper's saw it as a completely new signal, or adjusted to consider that signal an 'error' and not respond to it (the 'evolution' theory postulated by the Reapers and co?)

 

The citadel signal and the reaper signal should be one and the same, though. The catalyst is the citadel. It says so itself. All of this is headcanon trying to explain a poorly written plot element. Comparing it to a ringtone is not accurate. We are not our phones - not yet anyway. The catalyst is the Citadel. The citadel is not just a tool,  its actually part of him. Again, this is its own words, not speculation.

 

 

 

It relying on the Keepers the best way to go about things? Probably not, BUT one things I like about Mass Effect is that the StarChild and the Reapers are actually flawed beings. - I think a lot of people expect them to be 'perfect' because they are AI or whatever, but really they are sort of 'mirrors' to organic species - except they don't rationalise and moralise things, it's ends justify the means - Perhaps the Keepers are a product of that thinking, a bio-organic species made and subjugated in order to fit a role in order to justify the plan and ensure stealth?

 

 

Is it really a flaw of the reapers, or a flaw of the writing? I blame the ending, you blame the reapers. Even EDI was able to control the ship she was a part of. She could even hack into other ships and make their doors open and close. Yet the Catalyst has no control over its systems? Sense - it makes none.

 

Also the reapers are not really AI. Their minds are a billion organic minds conjoined together.

 

If stealth was really their goal, the keepers are a poor choice. The council races rely on the keepers to keep everything operating. Maintenance is one thing, but operation? This is something the OS should be able to do, what with OS standing for "operating system". You can actually physically observe the keepers. You can't observe the OS, at least not in the same sense.

 

In the end we'll just have to agree to disagree. For years I have heard many different excuses and headcanons for the catalyst to try to make it fit. Thus far, nothing has really stuck for me. The few headcanons that were decent were SO heavy in headcanon that it would be unreasonable to consider it a legitimate answer.

 

 

On that note a final mention; In ME1 we have the Chorban and friends quest about the Keeper signals - we are told that the keepers self-destruct when affected by scans and any attempts to study them - could it be that the reason Chorban and Co were able to scan the Reapers were they used a scanner that was based on or matched the old-Reaper signal? Or a variant of the Citadel signal? I can't remember but seems a curious one.

 

We aren't really told that so absolutely. The only thing made clear is that if we try to take them physically they'll melt. You cant interfere with their work. The act of scanning them in of itself shouldn't and indeed doesn't cause them to melt. Which makes sense, imo. Any attempt to run one through an X-ray machine is obviously going to make it melt itself because such a scan would involve interfering with its duty. Non-invasive scanning, such as that of Chroban, doesn't interfere with their work so therefor they don't turn to goo.

 

The idea that some random medical company somehow replicated a reaper signal of any kind is not only a stretch but it also doesn't really fit with the lore provided. He's even mentions the keepers are meant to interact with a type of signal and he examined parts of sovereign. You'd think he'd notice if his own signal was reaper. It'd also be rather amusing if some random medical company managed to inadvertently replicate reaper signal considering how much work Cerberus put into getting to that point. 

 

All that being said I wouldn't be surprised if the Asari already know about the keepers. I'm skeptical that in all the years they've been there that Chorban is the first to perform such scans. Infact, this might be why scanning them is illegal in the first place. To keep people from asking too many questions. It wouldn't surprise me given all the big secrets the Asari government have been hiding from us.

[RVallant]

 

I think you're misunderstanding my argument against the catalyst. You're right that he must not have control over the citadel as a whole. I'm saying the fact that he doesn't makes no sense - he SHOULD. He should have control over it. It is his creation. He is the OS. None of it makes sense.

 

I find this stance of "he was hiding" to be very silly and poorly written. I hate using the word but fact of the matter is it just isn't logical. Was the catalyst dormant with no control over the citadel? Apparently. Does that suddenly make any kind of sense? No. Not within the context of the lore, it does not. Nothing about it makes sense. It is a extremely weak argument used to defend a terribly written element of the plot.

 

The only explanation given to answer the question of why the Catalyst doesn't have control boils down "he was sleeping". Is it possible? Sure. Does it make sense? No, not at all. It's a poor excuse to wave away the glaring plothole and fails to sit within the context of the lore in any meaningful way.

 

In the same vein we should think synthesis makes sense. Clearly jumping into a beam of light CAN change all life in the galaxy. Because thats what happened. So therefore, its technically true. Yet it still doesn't make any sense, does it? Yes, the Catalyst apparently was asleep and powerless the entire time. That doesn't suddenly make any of it make any sense.

 

 

The citadel signal and the reaper signal should be one and the same, though. The catalyst is the citadel. It says so itself. All of this is headcanon trying to explain a poorly written plot element. Comparing it to a ringtone is not accurate. We are not our phones - not yet anyway. The catalyst is the Citadel. The citadel is not just a tool,  its actually part of him. Again, this is its own words, not speculation.

 

 

 

Is it really a flaw of the reapers, or a flaw of the writing? I blame the ending, you blame the reapers. Even EDI was able to control the ship she was a part of. She could even hack into other ships and make their doors open and close. Yet the Catalyst has no control over its systems? Sense - it makes none.

 

 

 

 

I know that, I was attempting to split the quotes up with individual replies but it didn't work out in the end.

 

 

Synthesis makes sense to me and I don't have an issue with the ending. I also don't have an issue with the catalyst not controlling everything, you're operating under the assumption that he works like EDI when the signs imply that he doesn't. 

 

Also you're missing my point regarding the two different signals, citadel signals would be different from the reaper signals by necessity - if the two were one and the same then any research done by citadel species regarding any innate citadel signal would potentially give the game away. So there needs to be two categories of signals, one that is the general functions of the citadel and one that is the 'order 66' of the ME Universe. 

 

And that also means the Catalyst has no desire to control or affect the area outside of where he is stationed (or the rest of the citadel) because this trap is the golden carrot, left for the organic species to populate and control in their own style. Assuming the catalyst operates on a logic of absolutes then the absolute safest way of non-discovery is to limit its presence throughout the citadel in any shape and form that may lead to it being found out - computer systems get tampered with, AI aren't always welcomed, things get messed around with, staying in a restricted, difficult place to find keeps things simple.

 

 Also the reapers are not really AI. Their minds are a billion organic minds conjoined together.

 

If stealth was really their goal, the keepers are a poor choice. The council races rely on the keepers to keep everything operating. Maintenance is one thing, but operation? This is something the OS should be able to do, what with OS standing for "operating system". You can actually physically observe the keepers. You can't observe the OS, at least not in the same sense.

 

In the end we'll just have to agree to disagree. For years I have heard many different excuses and headcanons for the catalyst to try to make it fit. Thus far, nothing has really stuck for me.

 

I didn't say the Reaper's are AI, I said the Catalyst is an AI. 

 

The Keepers are perfect for stealth, they're an organic species that pique the curiosity of new organic species arriving there, who because of their self-destruct nature and their lack of communication, yet their vital maintenance and operation services *forces* new species to accommodate them and more than likely, draft up laws that restrict interference with them (We know this much happened for the last two cycles) so really, we're seeing the perfect plan.

 

Moreover, by leaving the Keepers alone to do everything the other species are kept in the dark about the nature of the Citadel. Remember, we're told throughout the game that the Keepers do more than just general maintenance, it's just no one knows exactly what they're doing or why they do it and they're not interested in finding out any time soon due to the combination of law and convenience (for themselves that is, not for the story!)

 

Here's the thing, despite the 'illogical' nature of the set up, it worked perfectly and took a ridiculously long time to sabotage - We're talking in hindsight about 'why' things didn't happen when the reality was it was never needed because things worked like clockwork, every 50k years forever until the Protheans threw a spanner in the works. The Catalyst failed to account for organic evolution in the case of the keepers and the typical arrogance of synthetic thinking - This is a being that subjugated its masters based on an absolute conclusion to a dangerous mandate, and also, it's this synthetic thinking that results in the three rather stubborn ending types at the end. 

 

By the by on an unrelated note, what is it with people throwing out 'headcanon' as if it disproves or invalidates any points being made. That sounds to me that you don't want to discuss things and just want to explicitly disagree and invalidate what people theorise or think by making it 'lesser' to what you think yourself. =/

 

We aren't really told that so absolutely. The only thing made clear is that if we try to take them physically they'll melt. You cant interfere with their work. The act of scanning them in of itself shouldn't and indeed doesn't cause them to melt. Which makes sense, imo. Any attempt to run one through an X-ray machine is obviously going to make it melt itself because such a scan would involve interfering with its duty. Non-invasive scanning, such as that of Chroban, doesn't interfere with their work so therefor they don't turn to goo.

 

-Is that so? I was under the impression that Chorban's medical scanner was a relevation because its the first of its kind that could scan the keepers and NOT cause them to register it as an interference.

 

The idea that some random medical company somehow replicated a reaper signal of any kind is not only a stretch but it also doesn't really fit with the lore provided. He's even mentions the keepers are meant to interact with a type of signal and he examined parts of sovereign. You'd think he'd notice if his own signal was reaper. It'd also be rather amusing if some random medical company managed to inadvertently replicate reaper signal considering how much work Cerberus put into getting to that point. 

 

-It doesn't have to be an exact reaper signal, something similar to it, such a wavelength. But I concede the point, this one most certainly doesn't fit.

 

All that being said I wouldn't be surprised if the Asari already know about the keepers. I'm skeptical that in all the years they've been there that Chorban is the first to perform such scans. Infact, this might be why scanning them is illegal in the first place. To keep people from asking too many questions. It wouldn't surprise me given all the big secrets the Asari government have been hiding from us.

 

-I like that theory since it fits the Asari methods, never thought about it like that before.

[Valmar]

Synthesis makes sense to me and I don't have an issue with the ending. I also don't have an issue with the catalyst not controlling everything, you're operating under the assumption that he works like EDI when the signs imply that he doesn't. 

 

Shepard jumping into a beam of light that changes all life in the galaxy and makes synthetics part organic and even changes the DNA of trees makes sense to you? I'm a bit jealous. You must know something I don't.

 

Also I'm not really assuming that the catalyst has control of everything... I get that he must not. I'm saying the fact that he doesn't makes no sense and is in itself a contradiction and plothole. If even EDI can can control a ship she was built into why would the catalyst not have control of something it itself designed and built and incorporated itself into? I know he doesn't have that control like Edi. I'm not assuming he does. I'm saying the fact that he doesn't makes no sense. He doesn't make sense if he does and he doesn't make sense if he doesn't. The catalyst is a paradox because it is a plothole.

 

Also you're missing my point regarding the two different signals, citadel signals would be different from the reaper signals by necessity - if the two were one and the same then any research done by citadel species regarding any innate citadel signal would potentially give the game away. So there needs to be two categories of signals, one that is the general functions of the citadel and one that is the 'order 66' of the ME Universe. 

 

And that also means the Catalyst has no desire to control or affect the area outside of where he is stationed (or the rest of the citadel) because this trap is the golden carrot, left for the organic species to populate and control in their own style. Assuming the catalyst operates on a logic of absolutes then the absolute safest way of non-discovery is to limit its presence throughout the citadel in any shape and form that may lead to it being found out - computer systems get tampered with, AI aren't always welcomed, things get messed around with, staying in a restricted, difficult place to find keeps things simple.

 

 

You're still working off the notion the Catalyst OS would have to be disabled and separated from the systems that is part of it inorder to remain undetected. Something I still inherently disagree with for reasons explained earlier. Beyond that the Catalyst IS the citadel systems. Its own words. So even if it did turn itself off to hide... nothing would be working. If I remove my computer's OS the computer works sure but it isn't really operational. Hardware is nothing without the software to run it.

 

Catalyst is the software, it runs the citadel. Except if it runs it then why did it need the keepers and sovereign and why didnt it control it sooner. So it must not control it. Except it says its a part of it. So it should control it... It's a paradox that just keeps coming around on itself. A snake swallowing its own tail has no end in sight.

 

Because remember: the catalyst is the Citadel. The citadel is not a separate entity from the catalyst. They're the same. This is not my speculation it is what it tells us in the lore. If it only said "the citadel is my home" then okay. Maybe you're on to something. Home doesn't imply that it necessarily has control. I'd still hate the catalyst but the issue of control wouldn't necessarily come up. The catalyst doesn't just say that, though. It specifically says the citadel is a part of it.

 

 I didn't say the Reaper's are AI, I said the Catalyst is an AI. 

 

I must had interpreted you wrong then.

"BUT one things I like about Mass Effect is that the StarChild and the Reapers are actually flawed beings. - I think a lot of people expect them to be 'perfect' because they are AI or whatever"

You can probably see why I came to that conclusion.
 

 

The Keepers are perfect for stealth, they're an organic species that pique the curiosity of new organic species arriving there, who because of their self-destruct nature and their lack of communication, yet their vital maintenance and operation services *forces* new species to accommodate them and more than likely, draft up laws that restrict interference with them (We know this much happened for the last two cycles) so really, we're seeing the perfect plan.

 

 

Doesn't the whole Chorban angle you bring up disprove the notion of the keeper's being perfect for stealth? I ask you this... what scenerio sounds the most effective and hidden.

 

The keepers, a physical species that can be scanned and observed and are under constant surveillance walk up and manually tweak some controls and turn some knobs to activate the relay.

 

Or

 

The system that was running the citadel the entire time suddenly just activates the relay.

 

What are you more likely to notice, someone going in you computer and taking out your harddrive or the OS silently scanning it in the background?

 

Even if the Catalyst wanted to stay hidden the entire time there is no reason why it couldn't just turn on and take over the systems, even if they were for some reason made to operate without it. I can have hidden computers on my network that stay connected even though they're technically offline. All I have to do is turn them back on and I'm back up, able to share files between them. How would the catalyst coming back online every 50k years and toggling the "/relay:on" command be any less stealthy than having keepers physically interacting with controls and activating it manually?

 

If anything the reaper AI god being on the citadel the entire time is the absolute perfect trap. They wouldn't need to rely on keepers or anything. They would be the servers housing all the information on the cycle. It could flip the switch whenever it wanted. It would secretly have had control of the citadel the entire time. We never would have stopped it.

 

 

Moreover, by leaving the Keepers alone to do everything the other species are kept in the dark about the nature of the Citadel. Remember, we're told throughout the game that the Keepers do more than just general maintenance, it's just no one knows exactly what they're doing or why they do it and they're not interested in finding out any time soon due to the combination of law and convenience (for themselves that is, not for the story!)

 

If they don't care what a species they can physically observe are doing over there fiddling with systems then why would they care what the system is doing. How would they even monitor it? I doubt the catalyst has a Task Manager us puny organics can just launch. Or actually, it does, and it just hides the things it doesn't need us knowing about because its a super hyper intelligent AI that has existed for a billion years and knows how to do such things.

 

By the by on an unrelated note, what is it with people throwing out 'headcanon' as if it disproves or invalidates any points being made. That sounds to me that you don't want to discuss things and just want to explicitly disagree and invalidate what people theorise or think by making it 'lesser' to what you think yourself. =/

 

 

I don't have any problem with headcanon. I have headcanons of my own. The difference is that headcanon is a personal matter. Its fanfiction. It isn't "real". I, personally, prefer to keep in the grounds of the lore. If it isn't lore, it isn't real. I don't see value in debating over headcanon generally because its just headcanon. You're free to headcanon whatever you want in your story. I don't control your imagination, have at it Hoss. But when someone comes in saying the real story makes sense because their headcanon satisfies them, well now...

 

Just because some can headcanon stuff to explain something that makes them happy with the story doesn't mean I have to accept it. Headcanon does not make the story better, it just makes YOUR story better. Keep in mind the subject of this topic. It is not "this is how I headcanon the catalyst" its "the catalyst ties quite well into ME1" with the evidence and support provided being headcanon.

 

If someone is happy with a headcanon they have to make sense of the catalyst that is perfectly fine. You can headcanon whatever you want. To say that the real story therefore makes sense just because your headcanon makes you satisfied with it? Different matter entirely. You cannot defend a story just because headcanon can make it work. The fact that you have to resort to headcanon is actually the biggest sign that something failed in the story. The story should be able to stand on its own without relying on the user to come up with elaborate explanations to make it work, imo.

 

Also, just to touch on the general vibe I get from this accusation, I sincerely believe I'm one of the more open-minded and neutral members on this forum. I often get accused of defending and even loving the endings just because I don't agree with everything someone says against it. My stance against headcanon works bother ways. I don't reject it just when its trying to help the ending - I'm just as quick to call it out when its being used to hate on the ending aswell. Which, more often than not, it is. You would be surprised at how much hate and contempt gets thrown at Mass Effect 3's ending based squarely off someone headcanon.

 

I'm a strong advocate of lore. For better or for worse. Personal feelings generally have nothing to do with it. That being said, I'm only human.

 

 

-Is that so? I was under the impression that Chorban's medical scanner was a relevation because its the first of its kind that could scan the keepers and NOT cause them to register it as an interference.

 

Well, like I said, it isn't ever really made that clear to us one way or another. Chorban does prop it up as if its a really big deal but he'll also then say they'll "almost impossible to scan". So it wasn't absolutely impossible. How much of his claim is exaggerated due to personal feelings, I cannot say.

 

My own feelings on this were mentioned before; I think it depends on the method of the scan. The only thing made to be an absolute in the lore with the keepers is that if you try to interfere with their work they will self destruct or melt or whatever. The scanning was given more leeway. I don't believe there is anything particularly special about Chorban's scanner, at least in context of the keepers. I think any scanner that can be used in a non-intrusive manner (like just wave your hand in their general direction) would net the same results in the sense of not causing them to melt.
 

 

I like that theory since it fits the Asari methods, never thought about it like that before.

 

What makes matters even worse is that in the Citadel DLC you go into the Citadel Archives the council has restricted and there they have a hologram telling the events of the reaper attack in ME1. When you first activate it says it is a geth attack. It then stops, recognizes you're a spectre and then switches over to the "real" report which says it was a reaper. Does this mean they knew it was a reaper the entire time? Were they just trying to keep a lid on it? Or is it just something they edited recently to reflect recent information? Who knows.

 

https://www.youtube....4QkfPjJL4Y#t=96
 

 

 

 

 

[Mcfly616]

The Catalyst (as well as the ending) certainly fits within Mass Effect lore. Whether you like it or not is another thing entirely. Though, many who dislike it do tend to throw around statements such as "it makes no sense", "it doesn't fit the lore", "it's not consistent with established themes" etc etc.

[Valmar]

The Catalyst (as well as the ending) certainly fits within Mass Effect lore. Whether you like it or not is another thing entirely. Though, many who dislike it do tend to throw around statements such as "it makes no sense", "it doesn't fit the lore", "it's not consistent with established themes" etc etc.

No, it certainly does not. Based off of what reasoning do you proclaim it does?

[Laughing_Man]

The Catalyst (as well as the ending) certainly fits within Mass Effect lore. Whether you like it or not is another thing entirely. Though, many who dislike it do tend to throw around statements such as "it makes no sense", "it doesn't fit the lore", "it's not consistent with established themes" etc etc.

 

Indeed, the catalyst makes no sense on many different levels, and the fact that he offers the final choice to Shepard, supposedly an inferior being with very little knowledge about the "big picture" that supposedly made the entire charade necessary - makes even less sense.

 

And even after all that, why would it offer the choice to destroy itself  and all the Reapers it "preserved"? No matter what changed, it is still capable of achieving to some degree it's original objective if it remains active - nothing truly changed.

 

In essence, it feels like the writer simply wrote in some nonsensical reasons and artificial plot devices in order to get to where he wanted to.

Unfortunately, nothing about this entire disaster feels particularly logical, poetic, meaningful, or enjoyable if you really look at all the facts.

 

In short: Yes, the ending makes no sense.

[iM3GTR]

My reply is in bold in the quotes, but it looks awful on these forums for whatever reason!

I like the way that entire post literally did what the entire ME3 writing team never could, and did half their work from them.

[MrStoob]

On OP's premises.  There was never really a problem with any of that.  It was the ass pulled organic / synthetic war, with messed up "galaxy in balance" logic for the Reapers that many took exception to.

[Gago]

I avoid overthinking because when I start the first thing that comes to my mind is why the Reapers didn't do what they do every cycle? Why haven't they taken over the Citadel and turn off the Relay network? I know the answer is "ME3 would have lasted for 10 mins" but what is the lore explanation? It can't be explained without doing weird mental gymnastics. 

[darth_lopez]

Yeah, when you consider the fact that the Protheans disabled the Keepers from starting the invasion thousands of years ago, if there really was an AI on the Citadel, it'd see them do it, and then have Sov or the Collectors undo it before the Asari started space flight. Not only that, it wouldn't need the Keepers to start anything. The AI, who controls the Citadel, should be able to control the Relay inside as well, and not need Keepers to activate it. It also wouldn't require Saren. And for those who like to believe the Catalyst simply lives on the Citadel, but has no control over it (besides what the Keepers do), again, it would see what the Protheans did to the Keepers, and tell the Collectors to come over and fix it.

 

That's why, if Bioware does any expanding on the Catalyst in the future, I really do hope they have it where the Catalyst was dormant the entire time, until the Reapers took in back in ME3. Because that's the only explanation that makes sense. The AI can't be active, or else it might be spotted by the Citadel population. It also might break itself from being run for too long (even computers need to be in sleep mode). So it goes into dormant after a cycle is over, and a new one begins, only to be awaken when Sov tells the Keepers to begin the new Cycle. However, since it was offline, it didn't detect the surviving protheans disabling the Keepers "Begin Harvest" shift.

 

So when Saren was trying to open the Relays to dark space in ME1, he was really unknowingly trying to wake up the Catalyst. And was stopped.

 

From then on, it was Harb leading the Reapers for the first time. Which explains why everything about how the Reapers operated was in questions, because they were never programmed to be put in this situation. Harb and the other Reapers were not programmed to think like War Generals. Harb is only programmed to Harvest, and that is why it was Harvesting ahead of schedule. And that is why the Reapers were focused on Harvesting instead of just heading to the Citadel to turn the Catalyst back on and locking the Relays. Harb might have even expected the Catalyst being dead from not getting in contact with it. And if it wasn't for their overpoweredness and numbers, they would've have been beaten by any conventional fleet.

 

But again, none of this is confirmed. So for all we know, Bioware might make ME4, and say "Actually the Catalyst was awake since ME1, had complete control over the Citadel, and we don't care about how they messes up past lore".

I'm just going to put this here:

 

The Protheans only thought they disabled the signal between the keepers and the citadel. What they actually disrupted was the the AI controlling the citadel which required onsite repairs that couldn't be made without the reapers showing their hand or attempting some crazy stealth maneuvers in order to do it.

 

Protheans had a knowledge of AI Vigil wasnt just a VI if i recall but an AI with a personality imprint (I'm replaying 1 right now so if i'm wrong i'll correct that). So it serves that protheans would have ways to dissable or be able to figure out a way to dissable the AI controlling the citadel (Aka. The catalyst) Maybe Vigil and the protheans just didn't realize the extent of the damage they had caused and thought that they had only severed the link between the citadel and the keepers and didn't realize the link they severed was much more sophisticated. So forced dormancy or deactivated without alerting the reapers until they missed their cycle call...

 

EDIT:Regarding the continued function of the keepers they had no doubt some default programing that allowed them to continue in the regular physical maintanence of the citadel but since there was no need for them to be able to upkeep systems, since this was done by the controlling AI system, they would've been unable to engineer a repair to the AI while they could keep the physical maintenance of the citadel up. Even then you could say there was evidence of "misfiring" among the Keepers if you recall in ME 1 and ME 2 there are numerous conversations that imply or state the keepers are or do sometimes randomly move areas of the citadel around for no logical reason. While the the Citadel Races have assumed this to be necessary to the function of the keepers and the citadel it could just be them misfiring. There could be no directed purpose just them working to do what they believe to be default maintenance with no guidance from their AI controller, again thanks to prothean sabotage. 

 

Additionally regarding why the Reapers didn't just use the Citadel Relay anyway: It's been deactivated. the Citadel races don't know how to activate a relay just use one, we don't even know where all the relays are and no other relay has been shown to be dormant, even the Omega-4 Relay is visibly active though it uses the FFID system to determine where or whether to fire ships through. The MU relay which we know wasn't destroyed by a super nova but pushed away wasn't deactivated or dormant either, nor was charron Relay (it just needed to be dug out of some ice and debris) Even the conduit was active both on the citadel and on Ilos. squadies make reference to a low hum by the conduit implying it was still active the whole time and we never knew! Literally sat infront of the council chamber! My point here is that the only faction in ME who knows how to activate or fully operate a relay are the Leviathan and the Reapers and also i suppose the protheans to some extent. And since the leviathan are stuck on leviathan world and the protheans minus Javik are dead, that means only the reapers know what is necessary to activate a a Mass Relay. We are still in the dark and we will still be in the dark until bioware decides to tell us what is required to activate a relay in the event of a system failure of unknown origin on a relay while the bulk of reapers lay dormant in darkspace. 

 

As far as Sovereign goes: It's possible that it's standard reaper procedure to leave a vanguard unit behind just incase something should go wrong with their A plan, this would not be out of character for the reapers nor would it be all that "un understandable" it wouldn't be contradicted by anything. It's just a redundancy incase they need a redundancy. Otherwise we could look at Sovereign as the one reaper they sent to fix **** when they realized **** was whack after firing the relay activation signal and the relay not activating. Both explanations make sense and fit the story and faction well enough. As far as why sovereign excersizes stealth and works through agents he answered this pretty well when he explained that it was to prevent them from uniting against them or preparing adequately for the coming purgre. Our success in Masseffect 3 definately proves that a unified galaxy might be able to withstand the reaper onslaught even then Javik shares knowledge of the war against the reapers that implies that we were not the first to come close to victory. So the reapers have a real vested interest and reason in keeping their true intention and purpose hidden from the bulk of the galaxy or disguised for as long as possible. And again this doesn't make anything else in the story really irrelevant. There are no startling plot holes or glaring flaws that crop up because of this.

 

As far as Harbinger: **** harbinger. No one likes him. 

 

ME 2  begs the question why not just use the collectors from the get go? A: Again not to reveal some advanced threat to the galaxy. With the resources of a terrorist organization we were able to figure out they're prothean and surmise what had happened to them via genetics and tech data we acquired. It would've taken the citadel races united less time than us in a prolonged conflict to get to that conclusion. Plus it would've provided all the races not just our little terror cell with the opportunity to mine and study reaper-prothean hybrid technology which would've been very bad for the reapers. The collectors were a nifty idea to help study the current races but every forerunner race probably had collectors made of them at some point. But they present a liability that the geth wouldn't have presented this time around with Geth technology being different from the rest of the galaxies the geth could act as an appropriately safe vanguard group to replace the need for collectors. Thus the reaper interest in the geth later in ME 3 and ME 2 and ME 1. 

 

as far as the rest of ME2 idfc. ME2 did nothing to advance the story or really the lore of the trilogy beyond introduce Cerberus and the collectors as a tool for the reapers. And I think it's responsible for much confusion