232 réponses à ce sujet

[Seraphael]

The whole saving the world idea has always been in Bioware games but I never minded until DA:I

Its like after DA2 Bioware "listened" to the criticism and went overboard like with the big areas and fetch quests

just so the player can feel important

 

We have a mark, we lead a big army we are the Herald of Andraste etc. its like we are Jesus 2.0

and I really hope they go back to DA:O's style or even DA 2 style

 

Especially since there are no consequences of being the Herald some mind sure but in the long run

everyone just rolls with it and there are no effects of the mark for the Inquisitor

 

Like it or not, the most successful Bioware games prominently feature not only Jesus 2.0, but Jesus 3.0 and 4.0 as well:

 

Baldur's Gate: You were quite litterally a god child, battling hell and could ascend to godhood.

Mass Effect: You were a bionically enhanced super soldier, the best humanity had to offer, saved an entire galaxy from a never ending cycle of destruction (next iteration will necessarily have to be less epic though). It was so epic you chose to use his name on the forum lest you forgot.

Dragon Age Origins: You saved a country, slayed an archdemon and could father a demigod. Sounds pretty epic to me.

 

On the other hand Bioware made less epic stories:

 

Never Winter Nights: Can't really remember the story, must not have been epic enough to stand out. Disappointed with the game.

Dragon Age 2: Something with saving a city repeatedly over the span of several years. Not very epic. Very disappointed with game.

 

You should check out Josh Sawyer's (big believer in low beginnings and non-epic stories) and Obsidian's "Pillars of Eternity". Mundane fantasy coming your way on March 26! 

 

Oh and...the mark of the inquisitor enables the inquisitor out of all people to close rifts. Wouldn't exactly say that is "no effect", it's at the very core of the story.

[Lewie]

You're a hero of sorts in most games if you think about it.

 

Also Neverwinter nights was a great game. Played that quite a few times. Fondest memory of that is chasing Tomi everywhere. 

 

Nwn2 was awful though for me.

[Spankatola]

Well at the end you have to lend your support to a new Divine.  It's like asking an atheist to select a pope. So no matter what, you have to support the continuation of the Andrastian faith. It would have been awesome if the IQ could take the Divine role themselves, in my case my IQ would have been a black Divine. Or simply choose to eliminate any chances of a Divine sitting on the Sunburst throne and just leave it empty. But nope, you are simply told how important it is to continue the faith and you pick your girl based on what changes they bring thru the religion.

 

I think that's a pretty narrow way of looking at it. The Divine is a political figure, and you can choose (in broad strokes) how she'll govern. It's awfully naive to think that not choosing a Divine would simply end the faith. That's not how it works.

 

The choice is between picking something that works best for the inquisition going forward or just letting whatever happens happen, as you're advocating by simply not choosing one. This actually gives you more control over the game world, not less. This is another case of misidentifying the disliking of choices as there being no choice.

[Hazegurl]

I think that's a pretty narrow way of looking at it. The Divine is a political figure, and you can choose (in broad strokes) how she'll govern. It's awfully naive to think that not choosing a Divine would simply end the faith. That's not how it works.

 

The choice is between picking something that works best for the inquisition going forward or just letting whatever happens happen, as you're advocating by simply not choosing one. This actually gives you more control over the game world, not less. This is another case of misidentifying the disliking of choices as there being no choice.

Oy Vey! I never said it would end the faith. I said "Let it die or fade into irrelevance" and the intent is for their not to be a religious figure telling everyone how the world should be and to "let them figure it out on their own".  Of course it won't end the religion. But my hope would be to get people thinking on their own, and perhaps believers such as Varric to decide to set foot in a Chantry on his own without someone having to tell him he can, not burning down freaking Chantries. Last I checked Thedas wasn't imploding due to the lack of a Divine. People were making their own way in the world just fine. The only people scrambling were those within the Chantry and it was really all about holding on to their own political power and nothing more.  Leaving the Sunburst throne empty is simply weakening another political faction, not destroying people's faith entirely, perhaps to some yes but not all.  At the end of the day, who actually needed a chosen Divine?? Not the Mages or Templars, who are better off not even being within that system. Not the rulers, who rule their lands anyway. Not the GW who were never apart of it. Not the people, who were still living their lives. The only distressed and ousted people in DAI were the Chantry mothers, sisters, and brothers.

 

And I know that picking a Divine gives me more control over Thedas, why do you think I called them "The ignorant Masses"? lol!! Why do you think I said "I don't mind riding the wave of religion to ultimate power."  I'm talking about as a player. If you want to play a nonbeliever, especially one who has expressed leaving the Inquisition et al. You are basically left with not many rpg options or dialogues to choose from.

[Spankatola]

Oy Vey! I never said it would end the faith. I said "Let it die or fade into irrelevance"and the intent is for their not to be a religious figure telling everyone how the world should be and to "let them figure it out on their own".  Of course it won't end the religion. But my hope would be to get people thinking on their own, and perhaps believers such as Varric to decide to set foot in a Chantry on his own without someone having to tell him he can, not burning down freaking Chantries. Last I checked Thedas wasn't imploding due to the lack of a Divine. People were making their own way in the world just fine. The only people scrambling were those within the Chantry and it was really all about holding on to their own political power and nothing more.  Leaving the Sunburst throne empty is simply weakening another political faction, not destroying people's faith entirely, perhaps to some yes but not all.  At the end of the day, who actually needed a chosen Divine?? Not the Mages or Templars, who are better off not even being within that system. Not the rulers, who rule their lands anyway. Not the GW who were never apart of it. Not the people, who were still living their lives. The only distressed and ousted people in DAI were the Chantry mothers, sisters, and brothers.

 

And I know that picking a Divine gives me more control over Thedas, why do you think I called them "The ignorant Masses"? lol!! Why do you think I said "I don't mind riding the wave of religion to ultimate power."  I'm talking about as a player. If you want to play a nonbeliever, especially one who has expressed leaving the Inquisition et al. You are basically left with not many rpg options or dialogues to choose from.

Leaving aside your personal take on the world state . . .

 

"Let it die" vs. "end it" is a distinction without a difference. You wanted a choice wherein you could cause the end of the religion, whether actively or passively. That's silly. That's like stating you don't have a choice in how to explore the maps because you'd prefer to destroy the mountains rather than walk around them. Again, you have pretty much every rational option at your disposal. You want to Kobayashi Maru the thing, fine. Mod it. But don't pretend there aren't choices.

[ComedicSociopathy]

You don't actually have to pick a Divine in Inquisition. In fact, you can completely ignore that quest and just allow Vivienne to win the job by fiat. Furthermore, you can even weaken the Chantry and begin its collapse if your approval with Vivienne is low. So, yeah you don't have to choose a Divine at all and you actively weaken the Chantry if you want. Not seeing the problem here. 

 

Vivienne Negative Approval Even so, this new Divine's reign is troubled, and signs of fracturing within the Chantry grow daily. Many believe its days are numbered.

[Spankatola]

Yeah, that too!

[In Exile]

I can express my beliefs. It has zero effect on anything. The power of my organization rests at least in part on faith, and thus it strengthens the faith with every success. I'm not saying this isn't completely plausible, and at least we can influence future Chantry policy somewhat (at least in theory, likely this will all be 90% streamlined in the next game) but it's still galling if you'd rather weaken people's dependence on these things. I like this story in spite of that, but I'd rather not have another one of this kind.

@In Exile:
I have a problem with the ideological core of Andrastianism as expressed in the tale of the Golden City. So it's neither a Chantry problem nor a problem of being generally anti-religion (I am that in RL, but it wouldn't have that much of an effect on my DA rp preferences without the specifics of this faith. I can happily play an elf who believes in the elven pantheon).

I can't really do the RP as a person of faith bit. It sort of works for me if everyone shares the belief but otherwise it's just too much of a departure from my IRL personality.

I suppose I'm indifferent to the oft-repeated moral about misplaced pride. To me the issue with faith is that the very idea of it, in that I think actual religious beliefs are silly. That it venerates particular moral beliefs is - for me - beside the point. At the same time I understand how important faith is to people. I don't mind the institutions existing because they'll always exist. The absence of prejudice is important to me but beyond that its all whatever to me.

[Elhanan]

While the various religions of Thedas may be based on RL cultures, it is fairly easy for me to separate reality from fantasy. And while I hold my own personal thoughts and opinions on matters of faith, my Dwarves, Elves, Humans, and Qunari hold a wide difference of opinion on how to approach these matters, even within their own races.

It's a game that can help guide RL choices; not a course in religion and theology. Reading Dr Seuss, Ray Bradbury, and Rod Serling as a youth did much the same for me, but not many were consulted for actual research.

[OdanUrr]

Um... do we want another DA2?

[Spankatola]

Um... do we want another DA2?

 

I liked DA2. I think if it had been called Dragon Age: Kirkwall or something, a lot of the criticism would have been hamstrung. Actually I think a lot of Bioware's problems over the last couple years are spawned by poor management of fan expectations than in delivering subpar products.

 

Even for DA:I, where there was the early "show, don't tell" mantra, they did an awful lot of telling.

[Zehealingman]

Well at the end you have to lend your support to a new Divine.  It's like asking an atheist to select a pope. So no matter what, you have to support the continuation of the Andrastian faith. It would have been awesome if the IQ could take the Divine role themselves, in my case my IQ would have been a black Divine. Or simply choose to eliminate any chances of a Divine sitting on the Sunburst throne and just leave it empty. But nope, you are simply told how important it is to continue the faith and you pick your girl based on what changes they bring thru the religion.

 

Something like this?

http://mattrhodesart...er-one-of-those

[Lebanese Dude]

Something like this?

http://mattrhodesart...er-one-of-those

 

Is Leliana crying?

[Elhanan]

Is Leliana crying?

You might also if you backed into one of those spikes. Someone is going to lose an eye.... *spots Iron Bull, and smirks*

[Hazegurl]

Something like this?

http://mattrhodesart...er-one-of-those

I would have loved that ending!

[Hazegurl]

Leaving aside your personal take on the world state . . .

 

"Let it die" vs. "end it" is a distinction without a difference. You wanted a choice wherein you could cause the end of the religion, whether actively or passively. That's silly. That's like stating you don't have a choice in how to explore the maps because you'd prefer to destroy the mountains rather than walk around them. Again, you have pretty much every rational option at your disposal. You want to Kobayashi Maru the thing, fine. Mod it. But don't pretend there aren't choices.

By placing myself on the Divine's throne or leaving it empty. Two things may happen. My Male Mage becomes the Black Divine and thus it would become the Imperial Chantry of Tevinter and not Andrastianism. Or, I leave it empty and the Andrastian faith continues in those who wish to practice it but others may split to find their own way. Regardless, Andrastianism becomes irrelevant whether it dies into a future memory or is simply another sect. Religions can in fact die. You know.  Denomination even faster. So spare me, just because you don't like an idea doesn't mean it's impossible.

[stop_him]

Does the DA series have a Jesus impersonation problem?

 

DAO: The Warden had contracts for help, but still had to run around doing favors before allies honored them.

DA2: Hawke was a nobody until halfway through the game, then became a noble, but still failed to save his/her city. (Also: Hawke sucks)

DAI: Jesus 1.0. Or maybe Jesus in beta testing.

[Spankatola]

By placing myself on the Divine's throne or leaving it empty. Two things may happen. My Male Mage becomes the Black Divine and thus it would become the Imperial Chantry of Tevinter and not Andrastianism. Or, I leave it empty and the Andrastian faith continues in those who wish to practice it but others may split to find their own way. Regardless, Andrastianism becomes irrelevant whether it dies into a future memory or is simply another sect. Religions can in fact die. You know.  Denomination even faster. So spare me, just because you don't like an idea doesn't mean it's impossible.

Move the goalposts all you like. I'm not here to debate history with you, although the idea that some ancient, established religion will fade into irrelevance based on a single choice from a single person is (sorry to keep using this word) silly. So is the idea that if you're not actively working to end a thing, you're supporting it.

 

You've implicitly admitted now that it's not there are no choices, just not the one narrow, impossible choice you wanted. Now you just need to admit that to yourself.

[fizzypop]

The whole point is you are Jesus well until you find out that you totally aren't jesus which of course I guessed as soon as I saw what was suppose to be "Andraste"

[Phoe77]

The whole point is you are Jesus well until you find out that you totally aren't jesus which of course I guessed as soon as I saw what was suppose to be "Andraste"

 

The hat gave it away, if you ask me.  

[Hazegurl]

Move the goalposts all you like. 

 

And how did I move them? Go read the post you're bitching about again. I said I wanted to sit on the Sunburst throne or leave it empty. I said I wanted it to die or fade into irrelevance. (Of course I know that won't happen overnight, it's simply the start and would fit my IQ's earlier words to Mother Giselle.) I haven't said anything any differently than before except try to explain it to you, who continue to pick one sentence and claim it's my entire argument. I don't know why I even bothered. 

 

I'm not here to debate history with you, although the idea that some ancient, established religion will fade into irrelevance based on a single choice from a single person is (sorry to keep using this word) silly.

 

Of course not, because history proves what you claim to be impossible as something that is very much possible. It's obvious that what you want to do is throw your head in the sand in favor of your own argument. Which is...silly. I also find it funny that your entire point is that one person cannot possibly do this. Yet all it takes is one Divine to change the course of the entire freaking religion anyway.  But keep on saying how impossible it would be for the Jesus of Thedas to do anything when the entire choice of a Divine is based on whether or not you took a shyt on Sunday.

 

So is the idea that if you're not actively working to end a thing, you're supporting it.

 

Reading comprehension my friend. I spoke about two choices. To take the throne myself or leave it empty. Either way my mage won't be continuing the Andrastian faith. Unlike the choice you never get in game. There is never a single point in this game where you are not Andraste's Herald. Sure you can ignore the Divine choice, it only means its made thru your actions anyway.  Into the Abyss only proves it privately but means nothing at the end of the day.

 

You've implicitly admitted now that it's not there are no choices, just not the one narrow, impossible choice you wanted. Now you just need to admit that to yourself.

 

And you need to admit that you can't read.

 

And I'm done.

[MaxQuartiroli]

Many people who claims that a RPG is good only if you are a leader/winner/demi-god who is going to save the world/the universe and so on, and who claims that otherwise there is no point in playing should really play one of the best RPG ever: Planescape Torment.

 

That game showed to everybody that a RPG can be great even if you are playing a piece of ****

[AngelOfOutlaws]

We should all remember that BioWare can't please everyone.

Very, very true. However the game that I have heard the least criticisms from was Dragon Age: Origins. I feel like it was the perfect middle ground (which is odd because it was the first.)

 

You start out as a no one and build your way up to fame slowly.

 

You are saving the world, but your companions give you in-depth side quests that you care about.

 

The dialogue wheel! Instead of, here, pick one of three personalities, you could have up to five or six replies and I loved that I wasn't smushed into a personality. 

 

The dialogue was more difficult. It wasn't "Click The Heart To Start A Romance." I also liked how in DAO I could go about the romance my own way. I wanted to being sweet and kind or sarcastic and teasing? I could do that. FemHawke in DAII reminded me a stalker rapist. I cringed when she hit on Anders. A lot. The Hawke I created in my head would never say, "Don't tell me that or I'll have to lock you up in my house."

 

It had the perfect balance of open world and and story line.

 

Honestly, I feel that if DAO was made with all the graphics and mechanics of 2015. I would never leave my house again. 

 

Again, some of y'all my disagree, but this is just from my opinion and opinions I've picked up on. 

[Spankatola]

And how did I move them? Go read the post you're bitching about again. I said I wanted to sit on the Sunburst throne or leave it empty. I said I wanted it to die or fade into irrelevance. (Of course I know that won't happen overnight, it's simply the start and would fit my IQ's earlier words to Mother Giselle.) I haven't said anything any differently than before except try to explain it to you, who continue to pick one sentence and claim it's my entire argument. I don't know why I even bothered. 

 

Of course not, because history proves what you claim to be impossible as something that is very much possible. It's obvious that what you want to do is throw your head in the sand in favor of your own argument. Which is...silly. I also find it funny that your entire point is that one person cannot possibly do this. Yet all it takes is one Divine to change the course of the entire freaking religion anyway.  But keep on saying how impossible it would be for the Jesus of Thedas to do anything when the entire choice of a Divine is based on whether or not you took a shyt on Sunday.

 

Reading comprehension my friend. I spoke about two choices. To take the throne myself or leave it empty. Either way my mage won't be continuing the Andrastian faith. Unlike the choice you never get in game. There is never a single point in this game where you are not Andraste's Herald. Sure you can ignore the Divine choice, it only means its made thru your actions anyway.  Into the Abyss only proves it privately but means nothing at the end of the day.

 

And you need to admit that you can't read.

 

And I'm done.

 

Lame. Poster complains about being the Jesus of Thedas by wishing to have the godlike power to singlehandedly end a religion. Since you're "done" here, use that free time to look up the concept of dramatic irony.

[Phoe77]

I wonder if Origins would get as much love as it does if it had been released after Inquisition.  Not to say that it's a bad game by any means or that it's undeserving of praise, but I feel like it also gets bonus points because it was the starting point.