232 réponses à ce sujet

[Aimi]

Oh, the irony of using the term ubermensch to describe Jesus. You do realize that was coined by Nietzche who was a vocal critic of Christianity and once claimed that God is dead?

Actually, Nietzsche specifically referred to Jesus of Nazareth as an overman: an individual who, by dint of his exceptional effect on the beliefs of others, created a new system of morality to replace the old. Nietzsche suggested, from The Birth of Tragedy onward, that Christian morality had become philosophically useless and needed to be superseded in its own turn by something better (which he modestly believed might come from his own writings, especially his Zarathustra). Hence his eminently quotable "God is dead" - a claim not about the mortality of the deity, but about the mortality of deities in general as a philosophically valid idea from which morality and ethical precepts spring to be slavishly followed by the hoi polloi. But this, in Nietzsche's eyes, did not diminish Jesus' own achievement in creating a new kind of morality to supersede Greco-Roman paganism.

Nietzsche was wrong about the history of philosophy in that sense; he failed to recognize continuity between Christian philosophy and Hellenistic forms like Neoplatonism, among other things. And his concept of the overman is quite suspect. But Jesus is one of the few people to whom Nietzsche ever attributed the term.

[Cyonan]

The only two Bioware protagonists that could be defined as "Chosen Ones" is Shepard and The Inquisitor, and Shepard only because he was a soldier prodigy. The Warden wasn't. The only reason he and the rest of the DA:O cast were able to accomplish what they did, is because they tried. Unlike most of the people in that setting during the time.

 

I see nothing wrong with the "saving the world" storyline, as long as it's done well. 

 

Actually, the Warden just kind of showed up at people's doors(or forests) and said "Hi there, you're contractually obligated to help me".

 

Also while maybe not quite Shep or Inquisitor level of "Chosen One", you're still special in Origins in that a Grey Warden is required in order to actually kill an archdemon which is basically just you and Alistair or Loghain.

 

I would mention Revan, but honestly 90% of the people in Star Wars who are special are only special because of the force anyway. It's pretty much par for the course with that universe.

[Mathias]

Actually, the Warden just kind of showed up at people's doors(or forests) and said "Hi there, you're contractually obligated to help me".

 

Also while maybe not quite Shep or Inquisitor level of "Chosen One", you're still special in Origins in that a Grey Warden is required in order to actually kill an archdemon which is basically just you and Alistair or Loghain.

 

I would mention Revan, but honestly 90% of the people in Star Wars who are special are only special because of the force anyway. It's pretty much par for the course with that universe.

Except they were all reluctant to help the Warden, unless he helped them first. They didn't immediately bow to his will. You were special, but you weren't "Jesus" as the thread seems to imply. There are hundreds of Wardens out there. If the HoF and Alistair died and it was a couple of other random Wardens that lived, they probably would have turned tail and fled to Orlais to get help. The only reason the HoF and Alistair succeeded is because they cared enough to actually try.

[Nohvarr]

We were a Grey Warden first time around.

 

Then champion of Kirk Wall.

 

I don't know if you can do anything bigger then DA:, it is a massive game

You show a surprising lack of imagination.

 

Let's go with Tevinter as the main setting, with trips into Nevarr, the Anderfels, and Orlais if so desired.

 

Origins:

 

Slave: (Human, Elf, Dwarf, Qunari) You have been with your current master ever since you were young. She has been tough but fair, for a Tevinter Magister and has granted you a certain degree of freedom in completing tasks.

 

Warrior: Seeing your martial skill at a young age she began grooming you to be the Bodyguard of her beloved Daughter who has the potential to be a dreamer. The Daughter is arrogant, but genuinely cares for Tevinter and it's people, and seeks to change the status quot.

 

Rogue: Seeing your talent for pranks and stealth at a young age she began grooming you to be her personal spymaster. Learning the secrets of her enemies and sticking daggers in those that needed to be silenced. Her daughter finds you a necessary evil, and her current spymaster sees you as a threat to his position.

 

Mage: The Mistress was surprised to discover your talent for magic, and has since taken you under her wing as an apprentice. Her daughter views you as a rival (possibly a frenemy) for her mothers attention.

 

Soparati: (Human, Elf, Dwarf) Your family has had to work hard to become one of the more prominent merchant families. However your current status could shift as their are always those below and above that would see your family fall. Your new alliance with a Tevinter Magister should provide aid your family needs to gain a little breathing room

 

Warrior: You've ben protected your siblings from bullies (or perhaps bullying others) every since you were a child. Your older now, with more experience, training, and tools at your disposal but the job remains the same: Ensure NO ONE walks over your family. That is why your are aiding this Magister in their endeavor.

 

Rogue: You learned long ago that a whispered word, or a well played prank could do far more damage than a punch to the face. Your expierence and talent in that regard has only expanded as the stakes you play for have grown significantly. This new alliance with a Tevinter Magister should provide many opportunities to ensure your families dominance.

 

Laetans: (Human, Elf) Your family has a proud tradition of providing competent capable mages to the Tevinter circles. You may have no voice in the government, but that is not the same as having no influence. As an apprentice to a Magister you are getting an education few in the Imperium could dare hope to received.

 

(Okay, could do more withe the backgrounds but I think you get the idea...moving on)

 

Once you get past the Origin adventure (A short city adventure that takes into account your background etc) you join a Tevinter mage as she explores an Eluvian. One of her rivals turned her Spymaster to his cause and has set a trap for her, intending to do away with her while she's trapped in the Alien space. Things go VERY wrong, the magic she was working, freeing an Elven god: Falon'Din: Friend of the Dead, who Possess the Rival and sets out to regain worshipers as you remain trapped between worlds. With Your Magisters dying breath she passes on the key and encourages you to seek out the door to which it's bound. You find said door nearly too late stumbling through and finding yourself in a lost Elven temple to Elgar'nan: God of Vengeance and near death....where you find Solas waiting for you. Too weak to resist, Solas has you drink from a pool granting you knowledge. Knowledge of the Eluvens, and much more.

 

Back in Tevinter, The Rival begins to preach a convincing heresy, swaying some people away from the Maker, and the old gods and to a new one. Tevinter is thrown into turmoil as people clash in the streets and in the courts. Lines are drawn....and The Rival seems to be moving towards victory. Even if you'd like to See Tevinter fall....The Rival won't stop there, they wish to be adored, worshiped by all and will use lost elven magics to see it done. In The Rivals mind they are already a god, and see no need to tear open a the sky or storm the fade. All they want is the devotion of the people of the world, who once unified under their sway can build something that surpasses what came in his age.

 

Using the Eluvians you build alliances, race across The Tevinter Imperium and it's neighboring countries, arm your allies with weapons both martial and political, while denying The Rival the Elven artifacts they seek (But you can't be everywhere and thus grabbing one item leaves another ripe for the plucking by your enemy). Eventually you become the head of the Rebel/Loyalist faction seeking to stop Falon'Din...and perhaps change the Empire as we know it, forever.

 

This is a game where you can win every single fight you are in and still lose if you ignore or fail at the political game. Simply put, whether it be on the battlefield, in the Council, or even amongst the merchants guilds...you win or Tevinter dies....and a new god rises to claim the devotion of the world.

 

Why is the Inquisition not involved? Falon'Din learned his lesson from his last attempt. He's not going to launch an invasion of the south until he has Tevinter secured, the Qunari brought to heel and his people have already begun seeding this new faith amongst the southerners. Also, Tevinter has stood against several exalted marches so invading is right out of the question as all it'd do would be to unite Tevinter against a common foe.

 

So there you go, a little imagination and we have a plot for Dragon Age: Revolution.

 

Addendum.

 

To be fair, Falon'Din wouldn't have to be a soul possessing The Rival. He could be an Elf with an Orb and the Rival could be his right hand/prophet.

[Cyonan]

Except they were all reluctant to help the Warden, unless he helped them first. They didn't immediately bow to his will. You were special, but you weren't "Jesus" as the thread seems to imply. There are hundreds of Wardens out there. If the HoF and Alistair died and it was a couple of other random Wardens that lived, they probably would have turned tail and fled to Orlais to get help. The only reason the HoF and Alistair succeeded is because they cared enough to actually try.

 

Fair enough, but Shep doesn't really have everybody bowing to his/her will either in that regard. Especially in Mass Effect 3 where 90% of the game is going around uniting the galaxy against the Reapers, but you do need to help them out first as well.

 

Honestly I think the Inquisitor is the only one that really fits the description, as there's only one problem that you need to personally sort out before a faction joins you and then people just start lining up to help out.

 

It's also hard to say what a pair of random "not HoF/Alistair" Wardens would have done in their case. It's entirely dependent on the personalities of these non existent Wardens.

[Cell1e]

I loved that my Inquisitor was important and that everyone acknowledged that.

 

It made a nice change from some games where you save someones life one minute and they tell you to shove off the next

[Jorji Costava]

Actually, Nietzsche specifically referred to Jesus of Nazareth as an overman: an individual who, by dint of his exceptional effect on the beliefs of others, created a new system of morality to replace the old. Nietzsche suggested, from The Birth of Tragedy onward, that Christian morality had become philosophically useless and needed to be superseded in its own turn by something better (which he modestly believed might come from his own writings, especially his Zarathustra). Hence his eminently quotable "God is dead" - a claim not about the mortality of the deity, but about the mortality of deities in general as a philosophically valid idea from which morality and ethical precepts spring to be slavishly followed by the hoi polloi. But this, in Nietzsche's eyes, did not diminish Jesus' own achievement in creating a new kind of morality to supersede Greco-Roman paganism.

Nietzsche was wrong about the history of philosophy in that sense; he failed to recognize continuity between Christian philosophy and Hellenistic forms like Neoplatonism, among other things. And his concept of the overman is quite suspect. But Jesus is one of the few people to whom Nietzsche ever attributed the term.

 

I'm no Nietzsche expert, but I'm not quite sure that Nietzsche actually thought of Jesus as an overman. Part of the problem is that if you ask any two Nietzsche scholars what he said on any given subject, they'll completely disagree (and more than likely, both will think that you're a moron if you don't agree with their interpretation). But as far as I know, Nietzsche admired Jesus the way he respected Buddhism; massively preferable to Pauline Christianity in their repudiation of ressentiment, but still decadent (to use Nietzsche's own term), still life-denying in his insistence that we love everyone, including our enemies. Nietzsche's own examples of the overman tended to be military types like Napoleon or artistic geniuses like Beethoven.

[Aimi]

I'm no Nietzsche expert, I'm not quite sure that Nietzsche actually thought of Jesus as an overman. Part of the problem is that if you ask any two Nietzsche scholars what he said on any given subject, they'll completely disagree (and more than likely, both will think that you're a moron if you don't agree with their interpretation). But as far as I know, Nietzsche admired Jesus the way he respected Buddhism; massively preferable to Pauline Christianity in their repudiation of ressentiment, but still decadent (to use Nietzsche's own term), still life-denying in his insistence that we love everyone, including our enemies. Nietzsche's own examples of the overman tended to be military types like Napoleon or artistic geniuses like Beethoven.

haha neither am I obviously

Nietzsche also disagreed with himself about would-be overmen; as I recall, he thought Wagner was one, or 'kind of' one, early on, but then decided that his pan-Germanism was idiotic and repudiated him in an entirely deserved fit of vitriol. Like many of Nietzsche's ideas, I think that the overman was described in mutually contradictory (or at least divergent) ways in different places, and his language didn't help matters. Combining his own lack of clarity as a writer with his sister's efforts to rewrite his oeuvre after his death makes me suspect that none of the Nietzsche scholars (although I think that whatsisface, Kaufmann, is probably my favorite) will ever really have much of a definitive answer about most of the things he wrote. Of course, I imagine actual philosophers are less interested in what Nietzsche actually thought than in how his works contributed to the rest of the field...

Regardless, saying that he described Jesus as an overman 'explicitly' was going too far on my part. :S

[Jorji Costava]

haha neither am I obviously

Nietzsche also disagreed with himself about would-be overmen; as I recall, he thought Wagner was one, or 'kind of' one, early on, but then decided that his pan-Germanism was idiotic and repudiated him in an entirely deserved fit of vitriol. Like many of Nietzsche's ideas, I think that the overman was described in mutually contradictory (or at least divergent) ways in different places, and his language didn't help matters. Combining his own lack of clarity as a writer with his sister's efforts to rewrite his oeuvre after his death makes me suspect that none of the Nietzsche scholars (although I think that whatsisface, Kaufmann, is probably my favorite) will ever really have much of a definitive answer about most of the things he wrote. Of course, I imagine actual philosophers are less interested in what Nietzsche actually thought than in how his works contributed to the rest of the field...

Regardless, saying that he described Jesus as an overman 'explicitly' was going too far on my part. :S

 

No worries.

 

RE: Wagner: That's my understanding as well. For a time, Nietzsche and Wagner were quite close personally, but a number of events (including Wagner's conversion to Christianity) conspired to sever their relationship; by the time of Wagner's Parsifal, Nietzsche was quite savage in his criticism of the opera's overtly religious symbolism and themes.

 

Interestingly, when you look at a lot of history of philosophy, evaluation of the overall plausibility of a given philosopher's corpus usually takes a back seat to the nitty gritty of just getting it right in terms of interpreting what that philosopher actually said. The unspoken rules of doing this sort of work are that you generally can't say, "Philosopher X was just playing Calvin ball; there's no coherent overall view to be extracted from his writings," or "X's argument was just really bad. There's no clever reinterpretation that will make it seem not bad."--That just doesn't make for publishable work. There are exceptions, of course (I think everyone pretty much agrees that Descartes' third Meditation argument for the existence of God is bad), but that's usually how things seem to go in the history of philosophy.

 

Anyways, this has been a bit of a tangent, and I should probably shut up for the mods show up.

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

 Inocently enters thread.. sees a hell of alot about nazies..

 

ok i wouldnt mind things being more grounded in the next game.

[In Exile]

The only two Bioware protagonists that could be defined as "Chosen Ones" is Shepard and The Inquisitor, and Shepard only because he was a soldier prodigy. The Warden wasn't. The only reason he and the rest of the DA:O cast were able to accomplish what they did, is because they tried. Unlike most of the people in that setting during the time.

I see nothing wrong with the "saving the world" storyline, as long as it's done well.

You're wrong. Aside from literally being chosen by Duncan, the Warden was in every origin an absolute superlative badass. Even in the CE origin, where Duncan is coming to recruit you specifically.

[In Exile]

Except they were all reluctant to help the Warden, unless he helped them first. They didn't immediately bow to his will. You were special, but you weren't "Jesus" as the thread seems to imply. There are hundreds of Wardens out there. If the HoF and Alistair died and it was a couple of other random Wardens that lived, they probably would have turned tail and fled to Orlais to get help. The only reason the HoF and Alistair succeeded is because they cared enough to actually try.

They tripped over themselves to help you. You didn't have to convince them to help. You had to fix a problem that stopped them from helping. At Redcliffe it was Emom being sick. At the Tower it wad the abominations. At Orzammar it was the chaos. And with the Dalish it was the werewolves.

[TheJediSaint]

They tripped over themselves to help you. You didn't have to convince them to help. You had to fix a problem that stopped them from helping. At Redcliffe it was Emom being sick. At the Tower it wad the abominations. At Orzammar it was the chaos. And with the Dalish it was the werewolves.

And with the werewolves, it was Dalish.

[Guitar-Hero]

I like being Jesus. I just wish it was more of a rags to riches kind of thing

[PhroXenGold]

Yeah, I don't mind it so much when, over the course of the game, you discover you are - or indeed become - the messiah. I don't mind it when, with 80% of the game done, it turns out you are now the last hope to save the world. I just really dislike it when those things are apparent from the word go or soon after...

[Xyxlplic]

People keep saying that the Inquisitor is a 'chosen one' when in fact he/she is the exact opposite. Gaining the Anchor is a pure accident that happens to an otherwise unremarkable denizen of Thedas. It's how he/she reacts to the situation coupled with the desperate hopes of the population for salvation that leads to being appointed Inquisitor.

[Nomen Mendax]

Actually, the Warden just kind of showed up at people's doors(or forests) and said "Hi there, you're contractually obligated to help me".

If only we'd been allowed to choose between warrior, rogue, mage and lawyer.

[ComedicSociopathy]

We probably won't be a holy figure in the next game but being the only competent person in Thedas and everyone's psychiatrist won't be changing anytime soon.  

[CronoDragoon]

People keep saying that the Inquisitor is a 'chosen one' when in fact he/she is the exact opposite. Gaining the Anchor is a pure accident that happens to an otherwise unremarkable denizen of Thedas. It's how he/she reacts to the situation coupled with the desperate hopes of the population for salvation that leads to being appointed Inquisitor.

 

I suspect this, like discussions about "Mary Sues" and "choices mattering," is simply a case of different people operating under their own definitions without listing them. Semantics are boring but half the battle.

 

 

haha neither am I obviously

 

Just to chime in, while I was in undergrad I attended a "Nietzsche summit" where a bunch of different American Nietzsche scholars gathered to just shoot the **** about the dude. One of them said as a preface, "Each time I read On The Genealogy of Morality I understand it less." Everyone else laughed and nodded their head. The contradictions and unwillingness to properly define are, I think, part of the appeal with him.

 

Regardless, we can at least say Nietzsche makes clear that he thinks what Jesus actually did and what Christ represents to Christians are very different, possibly even in opposition.

[PhroXenGold]

People keep saying that the Inquisitor is a 'chosen one' when in fact he/she is the exact opposite. Gaining the Anchor is a pure accident that happens to an otherwise unremarkable denizen of Thedas. It's how he/she reacts to the situation coupled with the desperate hopes of the population for salvation that leads to being appointed Inquisitor.

 

The fact that the "chosing" was accidental doesn't change the basic storyline that you are the only one with special powers and the last hope for saving Thedas, which are the fundamentals.of a "chosen one" archetype.

[Dulas]

I'd love to be nothing bigger than perhaps the leader of a small merc band. No saving the world plots or anything. If not in Dragon Age, then let us be such in Mass Effect.

[Korva]

I love the "Herald of Andraste" premise and really wish they'd have explored it more, and the Anchor and its effects as well -- both on a personal level (what does it do/mean to me?) and on an interpersonal level (how does it affect how others view and treat me?). The main story was, unfortunately, almost criminally underdeveloped as a whole and felt more like a vaguely connected series of "You know what would be cool next?" events than a coherent campaign. However, that is not the fault of the large-scale, save-the-world theme but rather of crappy planning, resource-distribution and writing. The game definitely suffers hugely from the massive focus on essentially meaningless filler quasi-content. In Your Heart Shall Burn was awesome, but something is badly wrong when the emotional and dramatic climax of the game happens after, at most, a third of the entire story!

 

Big, heroic themes are fun IMO, and I don't mind at all that they "restrict" the player a bit. If anything, I want more restrictions and less power/freedom/ego-stroking without consequences. Make me work to earn and keep respect and leadership roles.

[Cyonan]

I love the "Herald of Andraste" premise and really wish they'd have explored it more, and the Anchor and its effects as well -- both on a personal level (what does it do/mean to me?) and on an interpersonal level (how does it affect how others view and treat me?). The main story was, unfortunately, almost criminally underdeveloped as a whole and felt more like a vaguely connected series of "You know what would be cool next?" events than a coherent campaign. However, that is not the fault of the large-scale, save-the-world theme but rather of crappy planning, resource-distribution and writing. The game definitely suffers hugely from the massive focus on essentially meaningless filler quasi-content. In Your Heart Shall Burn was awesome, but something is badly wrong when the emotional and dramatic climax of the game happens after, at most, a third of the entire story!

 

Big, heroic themes are fun IMO, and I don't mind at all that they "restrict" the player a bit. If anything, I want more restrictions and less power/freedom/ego-stroking without consequences. Make me work to earn and keep respect and leadership roles.

 

I have to wonder if they don't sometimes end up fleshing out and making an entire story mission as something that started out as a way to get a cameo from a previous character in the series.

 

Without getting into spoilers, I could see one of the main story missions of the second act having started out that way.

[In Exile]

The fact that the "chosing" was accidental doesn't change the basic storyline that you are the only one with special powers and the last hope for saving Thedas, which are the fundamentals.of a "chosen one" archetype.

But it's also about deconstructing the trope a bit. It's about how having a special power - regardless of how you got it - has the result of making people WANT to believe you're chosen. Because that makes them feel safe, secure, etc.