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Understanding Leliana


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#1
TheLastArchivist

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Leliana is a character of extremes.

When she uses her head, she is completely cerebral. Fully committed to reaching a goal, using all the resources available to her without allowing the interference of emotions in her planning and decision-making.

When she listens to her heart, she cannot agree with any of what her head dictates and seems to be a completely different person. Willing to listen, to understand and compromise both her interests as well as yours.

What can explain or justify such distance between head and heart? Why are both at such odds in her?

 

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She's either a terribly intelligent woman who understands the human behaviour so deeply she can read our deepest secrets and show unbelievable compassion or be a mastermind manipulator, turning our wills and wants against ourselves.

The fact that she's been trained by Marjolaine to use her gift of empathy to subvert it and turn it into the ability of misusing such quality to harm people and take advantage of them has taught her a second set of moral values, one that clashes with her true self and forced a schism in her personality.

Leliana's core personality is that of a dreamer and an idealist. At the same time, she's fiercely competitive and confident about her skills, although discreet about it.  

And even after Marjolaine' death, she continues to use her skills quite naturally, without remorse. The one time she comes to think about them at all is when we confront her old master. She has a glimpse of the future and of what she'll become. She knows it's wrong, that she'll hurt people who are undeserving of it, and that she'll forget her true self. She'll be consumed by paranoia (according to her own words).

And indeed, in DA:I, we see how she deals with cases of treason. Justinia's death has hardened her to such a degree that, whenever she hears of traitors, she immediately opts for the most violent and final solution. She completely shuns her natural empathy and makes the decision based solely on what her mind (trained by Marjolaine) tells her, ignoring what motivations and facts lead or forced one of her own to betray her.

What if the person was being a victim of blackmail? Her head doesn't care and says: he's become a threat. Eliminate him. While her heart will say: I cannot trust you anymore, but I want to know why you did this to me. Give me a chance to understand.

Such ruthless skills have become a part of her, or rather, a second part of her, associated with a second self. She is two people, but not at the same time. Her core personality is and forever will be divided. Is that even possible?

How does she manage to live having two such distinct behaviours? Does she oscillate between them? Whenever she talks about her private life, she is back to her old, happy self. Is that her true self? But when she talks about work, her demeanor changes and she is calculating and cerebral. Leliana should feel torn all the time, but she doesn't seem to be aware of this contradictory condition, even going as far as to proclaiming death and deception are her trade (when hardened).

What are your thoughts on this? Can anyone explain this formidable woman? Two women inside one same person, bound by what criteria?



#2
Colonelkillabee

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I can in two words: Writer's Pet.

 

edit: "Mary Sue" also works.


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#3
Steelcan

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I can in two words: Writer's Pet.
 
edit: "Mary Sue" also works.



#4
TheKomandorShepard

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I can in two words: Writer's Pet.

 

edit: "Mary Sue" also works.

This



#5
Fiery Phoenix

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What you've described more or less summarizes why I find her to be the most organic, realistic character in the series. There's nothing artificial in her behavior as far as I can tell. She's completely herself, reacting and responding in a way you'd expect a real person would. She's come a long way since Origins and continues to develop along that path.

 

That's not to say she's without her flaws; quite the opposite. I would even go so far as to say the term 'Mary Sue' applies to her in some way. However, Leliana really is a troubled character, both internally and externally. But it's this kind of intrapersonal conflict that makes her personality/character so distinct in my eyes.


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#6
TheLastArchivist

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And here I thought there was this deep, sophisticated psychological reason lurking behind the mystery that is the woman...

 

Oh well.

 

:P



#7
rda

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Really, Leliana can best be understood in one of two ways:

1) Mental illness of some sort. (Bipolar disorder? Narcissism? I dunno.)

2) Uneven writing that's put her character all over the map.
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#8
Steelcan

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What you've described more or less summarizes why I find her to be the most organic, realistic character in the series. There's nothing artificial in her behavior as far as I can tell. She's completely herself, reacting and responding in a way you'd expect a real person would. She's come a long way since Origins and continues to develop along that path.
 
That's not to say she's without her flaws; quite the opposite. I would even go so far as to say the term 'Mary Sue' applies to her in some way. However, Leliana really is a troubled character, both internally and externally. But it's this kind of intrapersonal conflict that makes her personality/character so distinct in my eyes.

I'd say its this scatterbrained approach to her that is what is her biggest failing. She's constantly being change around in personality and depiction and that's only serves to kneecap any real growth on her part since it will just be changed for the next scene
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#9
Colonelkillabee

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What you've described more or less summarizes why I find her to be the most organic, realistic character in the series. There's nothing artificial in her behavior as far as I can tell. She's completely herself, reacting and responding in a way you'd expect a real person would. She's come a long way since Origins and continues to develop along that path.

 

That's not to say she's without her flaws; quite the opposite. I would even go so far as to say the term 'Mary Sue' applies to her in some way. However, Leliana really is a troubled character, both internally and externally. But it's this kind of intrapersonal conflict that makes her personality/character so distinct in my eyes.

Eh, I guess I can give her that. As much as she annoys me, you can indeed see the changes in the character and how certain events shaped her.



#10
TheLastArchivist

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What you've described more or less summarizes why I find her to be the most organic, realistic character in the series. There's nothing artificial in her behavior as far as I can tell. She's completely herself, reacting and responding in a way you'd expect a real person would. She's come a long way since Origins and continues to develop along that path.

 

That's not to say she's without her flaws; quite the opposite. I would even go so far as to say the term 'Mary Sue' applies to her in some way. However, Leliana really is a troubled character, both internally and externally. But it's this kind of intrapersonal conflict that makes her personality/character so distinct in my eyes.

 

That's how I feel about her, too. It's the imperfections in the character that make her so compelling because it allows us to see her as a person, and not a projection of an idealised person.



#11
Eliastion

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I think she's a victim of developers' going out of their way to show that hardening/softening matters. The problem is that this leads to each version beina an extreme written to emphasize how completely different it is from the other (equally extreme) version...

But this contrast with no real middle ground doesn't serve her believability too well.

It would be much better were at least one of her options more balanced: cold and manipulative could do without knight-templar psychopathic flavor OR the nugs-and-rainbows version could remain more rooted in reality. When both versions are extreme, it seems like diagnosis more than personality development ;) 


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#12
AWTEW

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Everything about her personality was foreshadowed in origins. She was never this innocent, wide-eyed, happy, goodie goodie some fans paint her as. 


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#13
Colonelkillabee

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They tried too hard to make me like her, tbh. That was what pushed me from her initially. And all that vision ****. Which turned out to be a cry for attention. I don't have patience for delusional people like that.


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#14
HuldraDancer

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Either I know a lot of insane people or no that's probably it, since while her behavior can be intense (that conversation with her about the next Divine always slightly freaks me out) I can still say I know quite a few people who jump from one extreme to the other quite quickly and easily. So I suppose her behavior doesn't stand out as much to me in that regard but honestly I think that her behavior is more akin to sloppy execution (strictly imo here) than how her character was suppose to be. I do in fact know people that jump around the extremes like she does but they are all pretty awful people so I can't really say I think she was intended that way.



#15
Jeremiah12LGeek

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I'm trying to remember the last time I saw someone use the term "Mary Sue" correctly.

 

I'm having a lot of difficulty doing it, because it has been a long, long time...


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#16
Colonelkillabee

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I'm trying to remember the last time I saw someone use the term "Mary Sue" correctly.

 

I'm having a hard time doing it, because it has been a long, long time...

Must've forgot to put your reading glasses on or something then.



#17
AWTEW

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I think she's a victim of developers' going out of their way to show that hardening/softening matters. The problem is that this leads to each version beina an extreme written to emphasize how completely different it is from the other (equally extreme) version...

But this contrast with no real middle ground doesn't serve her believability too well.

 

There is no real contrast though, both sides fit. There is this amazing Character Analysis  by makerssent on tumblr that IMO hits the nail on the head:

 

I feel like I have to begin from scratch, meaning Leliana’s Song and up Inquisition for this to be conveyed understandably. So head’s up for spoilers on both (and Origins).

 

First and foremost; what we see in Leliana’s Song is the start. She is not innocent from the start (, in fact she’s never truly that)What you see in Origins is a result of everything that happened in Leliana’s Song, which although released after Origins was already a part of her character through an edited version of the events told by Leliana herself.

 

The ‘everything’ is important here, because Leliana’s lessons from LS was not only that the Grand Game is dangerous and hurts people (which notably was something she had carelessly ignored because she had fun tricking and killing people) and that Andraste will guide her. The probably most defining change in her character is fromwhen she trusts Marjolaine to remove the incriminating documents that would pin them both as traitors to Orlais and potentially start a war, to Marjolaine instead stabbing her in the guts and leaving her and her friends to take the blame and (unecessary and excessive) punishment.

 

Leliana has lived a careless life of adopted nobility most of her life up until now, and when the Game suddenly isn’t as fun as its name makes it out to be Leliana is shocked. She now realises she had been blindly trusting,putting not only her own life but also her friends’ lives and the stability of two nations in danger. The fact that this realisation shakes her is what splits her and Marjolaine apart in personalities. (In the last paragraph you will see how she learnt from this and does not trust blindly in even the Chantry’s teachings.)

Now after Dorothea gives Leliana the key to escape (which in Inquisition Leliana phrases something like ‘she showed me that I could save myself’) we see a beaten and apathic Leliana. She’s lost, she doesn’t have a purpose, she doesn’t even want vengeance on Marjolaine because she doesn’t know who she is anymore.

 

 A recurring theme for Leliana is doubting her identity. When she was young she sought fun and danger, now she feels guilty for ever having wanted that because the idols she had were people like Marjolaine who are ultimately egoistic and unsympathetic.

Leliana stubbornly refuses any similarities with Marjolaine, and leaves her for the new guidance of the Chantry. When Leliana is lost she goes from one guide to another, to reveal but not create her core. This is later seen as the Warden and Inquisitor can influence how she acts upon her morals. 


Back on topic, however; Leliana refuses Marjolaine’s comparison of them because they do not share the same purpose. Leliana’s Song concludes with Leliana reflecting how her finding purpose is the heart of her story. She has found what she truly wants to dedicate her life to — the greater good, not the Game’s egoistic agenda, showing a great divide between Leliana and Marjolaine’s otherwise similar characters.

he now spends the next five years beingtaught how to be idealistically good. Desperately, we see her cling to this ideal way to be when she joins the Warden. She acts overwhelmingly innocent despite her natural contradictions because she needs to convince both those around her and herself that she canBut what gives her away is when her grey morals show, as in a few out of many examples here;

  • She happily accepts Zevran, an assassin of an organisation with legendary loose morals (to put it mildly) and deadly efficiency, in joining their quest as he will be a tool to help the greater good.
  • In conversation with Alistair, we also hear her saying that she does not fully regret leaving the people in Lothering to die at the hands of darkspawn as their effort overall will be worth more than she could do there.

Both in Origins and Inquisition we see her willing to be merciless if it benefits a greater cause. This is also why I believe that some/most of her positive attitude in Origins is genuine; she is happy that she can lead a life of both elements of what has defined her so far, and she belives she is utilizing that for everyone’s best. Leliana has both idealistic and pragmatic sides to her. (This is likely why your Warden will get negative reaction from her when they canbe helpful, and why she didn’t react as strongly to choices in Redcliffe as Alistair did among other reasons).

 

What Origins and Inquisition does, however, is show the doubt even now (yes, with a ten years gap and further adjustment of her character to the dark side of good). As stated earlier we are able to guide Leliana in both games because she lives a life of such conflicting morals, and the fact that this is believable is what makes her a well-written and strong character. The fact that she is doubting herself is why the Warden and Inquisitor can influence her — and fear not, dear gamers! Both unhardening and hardening Leliana is true to her character;

 

 

  • Hardening Leliana makes her embrace her more morally grey side, that she can act bad on behalfof good and that does not automatically make her an evil person. Hardening her does not rob her of her faith in the Maker and that she is doing His work.
  • Unhardening Leliana as well makes her content that she is doing what she does for others’ sake, that the Maker approves, convincing her that she is therefore not like Marjolaine (in Origins, in Inquisition this doesn’t bother her because she has matured). Unhardening her does not rob her of her willingness to kill and cheat.

 

Either path shows that ultimately, Leliana does not only believe in the Maker no matter what but also in herself, which convictions are now so intertwined it is hard to say where one begins and the other ends. 

This is why she does not hesitate to become the Left Hand of the Divine, knowing what shady work it entails but also that she is doing it for the people of Thedas.

This is why she is shaken seemingly out of her faith after the Conclave, but bounces back soon after. 

This is why, when she realises her socially-imposed ignorance towards the oppression of elves and mages, that she takes a stand for them because she believes without being told so that it is right. 

This is why her goal as Divine, no matter what, will be for the betterment of the oppressed and the inclusion of the excluded.

 

Even in Origins you hear her contradicting the Chantry with her own interpretations of what is important, and as Left Hand and Divine she continues on this path by working towards conversion. No matter what paths she takes, she stays true to herself.

Leliana’s strength lies in her faith and doubt in herself, in others, in the Maker and everything. With both factors the writer has made a balanced, believable and still surprising character, who can genuinely be both merciful and merciless.'


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#18
jlb524

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And here I thought there was this deep, sophisticated psychological reason lurking behind the mystery that is the woman...

Oh well.

:P


I enjoyed the analysis at least.

I think Leliana is ultimately an idealist but one that has seen and experienced a lot of harsh realities in her life (so she'll differ from a "stuck in an ivory tower" idealist). Within her, I see a struggle between "this is how I'd like the world to be" and "this is how crappy the world really is and how can that be changed?". Unfortunately, some ideals may need to be temporarily discarded in order to bring change seen as necessary to her.

I think in Origins we meet a Leliana who has spent the past few years living a nonviolent and low conflict lifestyle so the idealistic side of her was nurtured and this shows in her character arc (you can harden her by reminding her of life before the Chantry and encourage her to embrace it).

DAI Leliana has spent 10 years doing Justinia's dirty work for the greater good but now she's dead and Leliana's wondering if it was worth it all. Leliana will always be at her core an idealist but can become jaded with circumstance since she's experienced first hand how crappy things can get. I think the internal conflict is interesting indeed.
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#19
TheLastArchivist

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I enjoyed the analysis at least.

 

Thank you.  :wub:



#20
Wulfram

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In DA:I she's just a badly written mess. Neither outcome fits with her character as presented previously, neither outcome has believable causation. She's either a crazy murderer or a saint, with nothing left of the ruthless spymaster or the bard.

For the rest of the game she's just boring. And the romanced dialogue is just out of character fanservice, that is totally disconnected to her story.

#21
Qun00

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I can in two words: Writer's Pet.
 
edit: "Mary Sue" also works.


Were it true, the option to change her wouldn't be available.

The devs would decide Leliana already is perfect in her bloodthirsty self, which they clearly have not.
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#22
Colonelkillabee

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Were it true, the option to change her wouldn't be available.

The devs would decide Leliana already is perfect in her bloodthirsty self, which they clearly have not.

Either she kills everyone that stands in her way to get what she wants or she just makes everyone love her/bribes them to achieve the most bullshit ending in the game.

 

You get mary sue either way.



#23
Qun00

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[*]Hardening[/size] Leliana makes her embrace her more morally grey side, that she can act bad on behalfof good and that does not automatically make her an evil person. Hardening her does not rob her of her faith in the Maker and that she is doing His work.


Murdering Felix was far from righteous.

And don't play the alternative reality card on me. As Leliana said it herself, that future wasn't just pretend. It was real.
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#24
Basement Cat

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Murdering Felix was far from righteous.

And don't play the alternative reality card on me. As Leliana said it herself, that future wasn't just pretend. It was real.

Actually, in a war table convo Leliana herself says that ''I'm not her''

 

It's somewhere in this video.

 



#25
Wulfram

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Murdering Felix was far from righteous.

And don't play the alternative reality card on me. As Leliana said it herself, that future wasn't just pretend. It was real.


It was real. But it is a ridiculously extreme situation. The dude is only remaining alive through the "implantation" of Leliana's flesh and skin.
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