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[I present Chuck Bass]

I can in two words: Writer's Pet.
 
edit: "Mary Sue" also works.

You're just jealous she's hotter than your cassandra...

[Fiery Phoenix]

• Hardening Leliana makes her embrace her more morally grey side, that she can act bad on behalfof good and that does not automatically make her an evil person. Hardening her does not rob her of her faith in the Maker and that she is doing His work.
• Unhardening Leliana as well makes her content that she is doing what she does for others’ sake, that the Maker approves, convincing her that she is therefore not like Marjolaine (in Origins, in Inquisition this doesn’t bother her because she has matured). Unhardening her does not rob her of her willingness to kill and cheat.

That's a pretty good way of looking at her two sides. I have a lot of preference for the unhardened version, but I won't deny that a hardened Leliana has her moments, and is perhaps even more interesting as a result.

 

I enjoyed the analysis at least.

I think Leliana is ultimately an idealist but one that has seen and experienced a lot of harsh realities in her life (so she'll differ from a "stuck in an ivory tower" idealist). Within her, I see a struggle between "this is how I'd like the world to be" and "this is how crappy the world really is and how can that be changed?". Unfortunately, some ideals may need to be temporarily discarded in order to bring change seen as necessary to her.

I think in Origins we meet a Leliana who has spent the past few years living a nonviolent and low conflict lifestyle so the idealistic side of her was nurtured and this shows in her character arc (you can harden her by reminding her of life before the Chantry and encourage her to embrace it).

DAI Leliana has spent 10 years doing Justinia's dirty work for the greater good but now she's dead and Leliana's wondering if it was worth it all. Leliana will always be at her core an idealist but can become jaded with circumstance since she's experienced first hand how crappy things can get. I think the internal conflict is interesting indeed.

An idealist who has been through a lot of harsh realities is probably the best way I could put it myself. She wants one thing while the world is showing her another, yet she keeps on fighting for what she believes in despite all the hardships.

 

As far as the internal conflict, it's quite interesting because I don't think she would be the same person if it weren't for it.

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

I'm trying to remember the last time I saw someone use the term "Mary Sue" correctly.
 
I'm having a lot of difficulty doing it, because it has been a long, long time...

Using it correctly would imply it has any sort of meaning...because, it really, really doesn't anymore. :S

[Qun00]

That's a pretty good way of looking at her two sides. I have a lot of preference for the unhardened version, but I won't deny that a hardened Leliana has her moments, and is perhaps even more interesting as a result.


An idealist who has been through a lot of harsh realities is probably the best way I could put it myself. She wants one thing while the world is showing her another, yet she keeps on fighting for what she believes in despite all the hardships.

As far as the internal conflict, it's quite interesting because I don't think she would be the same person if it weren't for it.

An idealist tries his hardest to stand by his principles unless there's no other way.

Leliana isn't like that. She would bend any morals to get what she wants, even if it doesn't need to be the first option.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

I'm trying to remember the last time I saw someone use the term "Mary Sue" correctly.
 
I'm having a lot of difficulty doing it, because it has been a long, long time...

Ive found that "Mary Sue" seems to mean "character i dislike" now to alot of people

[ComedicSociopathy]

Ive found that "Mary Sue" seems to mean "character i dislike" now to alot of people

 

[Fiery Phoenix]

An idealist tries his hardest to stand by his principles unless there's no other way.

Leliana isn't like that. She would bend any morals to get what she wants, even if it doesn't need to be the first option.

Leliana's idealism is obstructed by the hardships she has endured. Hence, you perceive her as someone keen on bending morals in order to satisfy her needs, when the reality is more complicated than that.

 

Ive found that "Mary Sue" seems to mean "character i dislike" now to alot of people

Since the ME2 days, by my calculations.

[Scuttlebutt101]

Ive found that "Mary Sue" seems to mean "character i dislike" now to alot of people

How about Special Snowflake then?

[Carmen_Willow]

Accepted definition of a  "Mary Sue" or "Marty Sue" is a fan fiction character who is so perfect he/she is irritating. You can look it up!

[SmilesJA]

Accepted definition of a  "Mary Sue" or "Marty Sue" is a fan fiction character who is so perfect he/she is irritating. You can look it up!

 

Unforunately it's been tainted to: "A character I dislike therfore she's a sue!" 

[Carmen_Willow]

Leliana, orphaned at an early age, first seeks refuge with her mother's former employer and then with Marjolaine, and then with the Divine Justinia.  Learns to sing with her mother's former employer, becomes a Bard for Marjolaine, and then a spymaster for the Divine Justinia.  She's a Norma Jean, abandoned by the most important female figure in her life, i.e., her mother, she spends the rest of her life looking for another.  She uses her body and her beauty to gain approval and other things from both men and women, and becomes cynical as time goes by and she realizes that what she seeks is impossible to find. Settling on the Maker, she often finds him an unsatisfactory substitute for that which she needs most. It would be interesting to know if she ever knew her father.

 

She is an excellent spymaster because she is intelligent, but also because she is a great actress who becomes her character, usually to please a female mother substitute, but sometimes she choose a role for political or social reasons rather than personal ones. Norma Jean meet Dragon Age.

[AWTEW]

You're just jealous she's hotter than your cassandra...

At least you could tell if Cass was faking it

As for hotness, you know what they say about orlisans and make-up.

[TevinterSupremacist]

It's easy to understand Leliana. She's a plot device, not a character. Need someone to disagree with the pc and result in companion death? Leliana. Oops, now we need her for the story. Resurrection. You can either keep Leliana as the goodie-two-shoes chantry sister or harden her. What does harden mean? Oh she embraces her bard side, likes assassinations and having fun, chantry doesn't matter so much. Oh, in our current story that wouldn't fit. Well, now hardened means she's full pro chantry again, only this time she's Jack Bauer too. And she's hardened and alive no matter what happened in DA:O.

 

Because it's all about choices people, all about choices. They matter. *serious nodding*

[Basement Cat]

Accepted definition of a  "Mary Sue" or "Marty Sue" is a fan fiction character who is so perfect he/she is irritating. You can look it up!

It was originally a character in a Star Trek fanfic created to parody the horde of self-insert characters who always ended up being super special.

 

Read about it here.

Or read the story itself. It's very short.

[Delilah Faye]

Mary Sue character also tend to be self-inserts more often than not, and more defined by how strong a reaction they get from others around them than by their own decisions. They tend to be able to cause change in other characters, just by existing.

 

Leliana is so much more likely to be inherently changed by our decisions, it's ironic to call her a Sue. 

[Master Warder Z_]

You're just jealous she's hotter than your cassandra...

Blasphemy!

[Augustei]

If I gave the time to try and understand insane people I'd be here for a lifetime

[Karlone123]

They tried too hard to make me like her, tbh. That was what pushed me from her initially. And all that vision ****. Which turned out to be a cry for attention. I don't have patience for delusional people like that.

 

There's no short supply of delusional people right here.

[Colonelkillabee]

There's no short supply of delusional people right here.

People not loving your waifu doesn't make them delusional.

[fhs33721]

Either she kills everyone that stands in her way to get what she wants or she just makes everyone love her/bribes them to achieve the most bullshit ending in the game.

 

You get mary sue either way.

Oh look someone confused the Inquisitor with Leliana.

Pro tip: Leliana is the Spymaster with the hood and red hair. The Inquisitor is your main charcter that you can customize and who kills everyone that stands in her/his way to get what s/he wants or s/he just makes everyone love her/him/bribes them to achieve the most bullshit ending in the game.

[Colonelkillabee]

Oh look someone confused the Inquisitor with Leliana.

Pro tip: Leliana is the Spymaster with the hood and red hair. The Inquisitor is your main charcter that you can customize and who kills everyone that stands in her/his way to get what s/he wants or s/he just makes everyone love her/him/bribes them to achieve the most bullshit ending in the game.

The inquisitor being a mary sue doesn't make lels any less of a mary sue, lol.

 

The fact that you could even compare her to the inquisitor is sad really, and highlights the point.

 

At least the Quizzy is the player character. It's almost expected.

[fhs33721]

The inquisitor being a mary sue doesn't make lels any less of a mary sue, lol.

 

The fact that you could even compare her to the inquisitor is sad really, and highlights the point.

 

At least the Quizzy is the player character. It's almost expected.

So basically we can't have anyone ridiciously competent/overly important in the story aside from the PC? Talk about double standards.

[Colonelkillabee]

So basically we can't have anyone ridiciously competent/overly important in the story aside from the PC? Talk about double standards.

Didn't say that, but thanks for making assumptions. Though it is more understandible with the player character.

 

Making a character literally rise from the dead. Not so much. Granted, very few people actually killed leliana, so they managed to get away with that.

 

The player character being a mary sue, a guy that just falls out of the fade with a mark on his hand and everyone praises him as jesus.. yea, not exactly a great comparison if you're trying to convince people she isn't a lame character. No one's going to deny the inquisitor has a pretty lazy setup, hence why I had to go and write up my own background for him.

[Efvie]

I think she's a victim of developers' going out of their way to show that hardening/softening matters.

 

…Except the hardening/softening you did in DA:O. Which mattered f— all.

[Carmen_Willow]

It was originally a character in a Star Trek fanfic created to parody the horde of self-insert characters who always ended up being super special.

 

Read about it here.

Or read the story itself. It's very short.

That is sooo cool! It comes from Star Trek! What could be better? Thanks for sharing!