161 réponses à ce sujet

[Julmor]

Does sparing Loghain as a cityelf make any real sense? When I created my recent main Storyline in dragons keep, i decided to go with cityelf instead of dalishelf (mostly because i think the dalishelf storyline is kinda boring in a "generic elf" kind of way). But in retrospect, its kinda hard to figure out why my cityelf would spare Loghain. I mean, the guy basically tried to sell his family into slavery.

 I guess its not completly unbelievable. Sparing Loghain made sense to me since a civil war was brewing, and the kingdom needed to stand united. And because Loghain is conidered a ferelden warhero, it would make sense to let him atone as a grey warden instead of getting executed.

 

I love Loghain as a character, but from a character standpoint it doesnt really add up.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The City Elf might decide to get over his (entirely justified) hatred of Loghain in the name of using him. Though I can very easily understand one who can't.

[Persephone]

I've done it with ONE city elf and here's why:

She conscripted him as a punishment because she knew he didn't want it. And that it was a slow, agonizing death sentence. And that he'd end up dead & ravaged by darkspawn in the DR instead of a pyre, mourned by his daughter, allies and what not.

 

She also had nothing but contempt for him and also refused his request to kill Archie (She ordered him to do the DR).

 

It's not my fave kind of character to RP (Esp. since I love Loghain & his redemption arc) but a cruel mind can think of a punishment far worse than a quick death by decapitation. Plus my elf had no beef with Anora & wanted her as an ally, so she kept her hatred under wraps until they were back on the road.

[mousestalker]

Even if Loghain were a city elf, I wouldn't spare him.

What?

[Wulfram]

My city elf spared him.

A mix of seeing it as the pragmatic choice to end the civil war, and her just not being the sort of person who was good at killing people in cold blood - and Riordan and everyone kept talking too long for her blood to still be heated from the fight.

She still hated his guts, and largely saw the opportunity for him to die to the Archdemon instead of her as nicely serendipitous. Even if she is persistently irked by suggestions that this constituted redemption for him.

[Mike3207]

I could see doing it with a city elf who is also a mage. There just doesn't seem to the close connection in the Denerim Alienage you have with a city elf who is a rogue or a warrior. They don't seem to know who you are, and ask you what Alienage you're from.

 

To me, city elves seem very insular-especially if you're not from their Alienage. I can't see a city elf from another Alienage caring about the Denerim Alienage the same way a home town resident would. Now you add that in with what happened to the Highever Alienage the same year, then you're looking at  a different story.

[TEWR]

I can see a Denerim City Elf doing it by adopting a mentality of "Your life is mine now".

 

Basically enslaving the man who signed off on slavery of the DCE's friends and family.

[Obadiah]

Sounds like a rationale could be used similar to the one in The Calling, recruited for vengeance.

Spoiler

Isn't that why Duncan was conscripted? As a way to punish and kill him during the Joining?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Sounds like a rationale could be used similar to the one in The Calling, recruited for vengeance.

Spoiler

Isn't that why Duncan was conscripted? As a way to punish and kill him during the Joining?

Spoiler

He argues that if that was the case, the woman who recruited him would probably have transferred him away as soon as her plan failed so as to not have to be reminded of that plan's failure every. Single. Day. I think the woman in question conceded the point, too.

[springacres]

I could see doing it with a city elf who is also a mage. There just doesn't seem to the close connection in the Denerim Alienage you have with a city elf who is a rogue or a warrior. They don't seem to know who you are, and ask you what Alienage you're from.

 

To me, city elves seem very insular-especially if you're not from their Alienage. I can't see a city elf from another Alienage caring about the Denerim Alienage the same way a home town resident would. Now you add that in with what happened to the Highever Alienage the same year, then you're looking at  a different story.

I don't 100% buy that, but then my headcanon for a CEM is that they were taken from the Alienage long enough ago that people other than their immediate family might have forgotten them (or at the very least might not recognize them after so many years.)

 

At any rate, that's how I play my canon Warden.  His childhood friends might have lost touch with him, but he still feels a strong connection to the Alienage and blames Loghain for the fact that he doesn't know where his parents are anymore.  He also, perhaps unfairly, holds the guy at least partially responsible for Uldred's attempted takeover of the Circle.  Take all that, add it to Loghain's seal on the slaver documents, then add Loghain's statement about the Alienage during the Landsmeet... and in spite of Anora's appeals, he still couldn't quite bring himself to spare Loghain.

[phaonica]

I had a city elf that would have probably spared Loghain if Alistair hadn't protested.

I had a Cousland who spared him, even though he could potentially have been involved in the Highever massacre; so for me it's not hard to conceive of a Tabris who might spare him despite his involvement in the slaver deal.

[springacres]

That's just it though. With Cousland, he could potentially have been involved with the massacre. You don't know for sure, so you can give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

Tabris knows he was involved, because you find the documents that prove that he not only knew, but greenlit it. Then he rubs salt in the wound if you confront him by basically saying, "Everything I've done has been to assure Ferelden's independence," conveniently ignoring that the elves are Ferelden citizens too. "Oh goody," says the Warden Tabris, "You're selling my people into slavery to ensure human freedom; they'll be so glad to know."

And he tells you that the Alienage was beyond saving and "not a place I would send my worst enemy".  Well, yeah, thirty-odd years of absentee landlordism neglect by ruling overlords will do that to a place.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

And he tells you that the Alienage was beyond saving and "not a place I would send my worst enemy".  Well, yeah, thirty-odd years of absentee landlordism neglect by ruling overlords will do that to a place.

To be fair, Loghain had no direct control over that problem until the Blight started: we have no evidence that he tried to help them at all, which he should have since he might have known some of the elves in that Alienage (IIRC he commanded an elven unit), but he himself wasn't their ruling overlord in any sense if that was what you were trying to say.

 

In order to do right by the elves as a whole, he'd need to mention it to his daughter and her husband, who I'm nearly certain would need to mention it to Arl Kendalls instead of personally handling the matter. And while I doubt he did this (especially since Cailan provably has no idea how bad things are in there) it likely wouldn't have made things much different if he had. I'm not saying what he did when he got his power was right, or that he shouldn't have used the power he had; I'm just saying that he's not the one primarily responsible for the way the Denerim Alienage typically is.

[springacres]

To be fair, Loghain had no direct control over that problem until the Blight started: we have no evidence that he tried to help them at all, which he should have since he might have known some of the elves in that Alienage (IIRC he commanded an elven unit), but he himself wasn't their ruling overlord in any sense if that was what you were trying to say.

 

In order to do right by the elves as a whole, he'd need to mention it to his daughter and her husband, who I'm nearly certain would need to mention it to Arl Kendalls instead of personally handling the matter. And while I doubt he did this (especially since Cailan provably has no idea how bad things are in there) it likely wouldn't have made things much different if he had. I'm not saying what he did when he got his power was right, or that he shouldn't have used the power he had; I'm just saying that he's not the one primarily responsible for the way the Denerim Alienage typically is.

I get that.  But the point is that, as a human noble, Loghain could have used his influence to make things better for the elves.  Instead, from their point of view, he made it considerably worse.  So while he may not be personally responsible for the overall situation in the Denerim Alienage, his behavior and attitude towards the elves living there (at least during the events of DAO) typify the sort of patronizing attitudes that helped create alienages in the first place.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I get that.  But the point is that, as a human noble, Loghain could have used his influence to make things better for the elves.  Instead, from their point of view, he made it considerably worse.  So while he may not be personally responsible for the overall situation in the Denerim Alienage, his behavior and attitude towards the elves living there (at least during the events of DAO) typify the sort of patronizing attitudes that helped create alienages in the first place.

Makes sense to me.

[phaonica]

My Warden city elf hated everything about the alienage and was happy to be leaving. He didn't consider the slavery plot to be any worse than all the other sh*t the alienage elves put up with on a daily basis. He didn't wish for bad things to happen to people, but he did kind of expect it. He didn't consider himself to have any particular expertise on human politics, but had heard stories that Loghain used to be some kind of hero who seemed to want to help his people, but had made some grave errors. Loghain didn't seem that much worse than all the other humans, and he would have spared Loghain if Alistair hadn't protested.

One might argue that this warden sounds like an a**hole, and I wouldn't argue with that. All that I disagree with is the implication that it is inconceivable that a City Elf would spare Loghain.

[TEWR]

I get that.  But the point is that, as a human noble, Loghain could have used his influence to make things better for the elves.  Instead, from their point of view, he made it considerably worse.  So while he may not be personally responsible for the overall situation in the Denerim Alienage, his behavior and attitude towards the elves living there (at least during the events of DAO) typify the sort of patronizing attitudes that helped create alienages in the first place.

 

I doubt he could've done much, because he wasn't in control of Denerim. Howe was. And the first thing Howe did upon appointing himself Arl of Denerim (which Loghain signed off on, but politically speaking there was nothing he could do as Howe had full control at this time) was lead a purge of the Alienage, so bad that it tore the Veil and allowed Demons to pour through.

 

Sure, nominally Howe is answering to Loghain, but it's made clear that Howe is the one calling the shots over Loghain. Howe presents a potential third threat that Loghain needs to keep on his side -- the path to Denerim and Amaranthine is a vital trade route, to say nothing of Howe's military might now and the supplies he has that would help the army.

 

It would, however, be fair to say that Loghain -- along with Maric and Rowan -- could've done something when the three of them were rebuilding Ferelden. And when Loghain was chancellor to the throne for Maric. 

[springacres]

My Warden city elf hated everything about the alienage and was happy to be leaving. He didn't consider the slavery plot to be any worse than all the other sh*t the alienage elves put up with on a daily basis. He didn't wish for bad things to happen to people, but he did kind of expect it. He didn't consider himself to have any particular expertise on human politics, but had heard stories that Loghain used to be some kind of hero who seemed to want to help his people, but had made some grave errors. Loghain didn't seem that much worse than all the other humans, and he would have spared Loghain if Alistair hadn't protested.

One might argue that this warden sounds like an a**hole, and I wouldn't argue with that. All that I disagree with is the implication that it is inconceivable that a City Elf would spare Loghain.

And with a character like that, I can see how it would be concievable.  I just haven't been able to bring myself to play an elf like that, yet.

 

I guess what I'm really saying here is that it's hard for me as a player to construct and play a Tabris warden that could spare Loghain without breaking character or metagaming.

 

I doubt he could've done much, because he wasn't in control of Denerim. Howe was. And the first thing Howe did upon appointing himself Arl of Denerim (which Loghain signed off on, but politically speaking there was nothing he could do as Howe had full control at this time) was lead a purge of the Alienage, so bad that it tore the Veil and allowed Demons to pour through.

 

Sure, nominally Howe is answering to Loghain, but it's made clear that Howe is the one calling the shots over Loghain. Howe presents a potential third threat that Loghain needs to keep on his side -- the path to Denerim and Amaranthine is a vital trade route, to say nothing of Howe's military might now and the supplies he has that would help the army.

 

It would, however, be fair to say that Loghain -- along with Maric and Rowan -- could've done something when the three of them were rebuilding Ferelden. And when Loghain was chancellor to the throne for Maric. 

I feel like there might have been more he could have done, even if it was only to ask questions of the Kendells in the Landsmeet.  But when it comes down to it, I suspect the main factor in my characters' not having been able to spare him to date might boil down simply to revenge.  "He signed the slaver document, maybe Howe was behind it/maybe not, but I killed Howe before I ever knew about this and it was Loghain's seal anyway, so Loghain has to be held accountable.  And I can't risk that he might survive the Joining."  That's how I've played my elven Wardens to date, anyway.

[Aimi]

"Nothing personal, yes?"

"F**k nothing personal. Everything's personal."

I don't find it particularly difficult to roleplay characters that kill people that try to kill them. The slavery, the politics, the propaganda, all that is there too in varying degrees depending on the character, but they're just window dressing.

I have played a few characters that keep Loghain alive, mostly because I wanted to see what it was like rather than actually considering it an interesting roleplay. None of them were city elves.

[Bethgael]

To be fair, Loghain had no direct control over that problem until the Blight started: we have no evidence that he tried to help them at all, which he should have since he might have known some of the elves in that Alienage (IIRC he commanded an elven unit), but he himself wasn't their ruling overlord in any sense if that was what you were trying to say.

 

No, but Anora (as defacto ruler) did.

 

If she was such a great Queen who was doing it all because Cailan was a twit, it's nuts to say she had no idea of the state of things. Rumours of Vaughan Kendell's depravities had been around for a fair while. If she had no idea that this was going on in the city she lives in, she was not that great.

 

I always want to slap Alistair when he says things like "she can have it. She's doing a great job." Especially as a city elf. Even when romancing him.

The only characters I had that spared Loghain were:

1. a human mage bloke who was a blood mage and would have supported Uldred and freedom, given the chance (although obviously not to the extreme it ended up as). Married Alistair to Anora, spared Loghain. Just because, he could, romancing Morrigan, did the DR. Power. Also, he loved the idea of Ali having to deal with Loghain as his father in law. Bit of an arse, I suppose.

 

2. A dwarf, who couldn't see the issue with Loghain's behaviour. Crap like that happens n Orzammar all the time. If you can use someone, do.

 

Could not imagine sparing him as a city elf. I can't twist my headcanon far enough to justify it.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

No, but Anora (as defacto ruler) did.

 

If she was such a great Queen who was doing it all because Cailan was a twit, it's nuts to say she had no idea of the state of things. Rumours of Vaughan Kendell's depravities had been around for a fair while. If she had no idea that this was going on in the city she lives in, she was not that great.

 

I always want to slap Alistair when he says things like "she can have it. She's doing a great job." Especially as a city elf. Even when romancing him.

Anora's more responsible than Loghain is, but still not the biggest offender. She doesn't have direct control over the Alienage. She does have some degree of direct power over the guy who does, which is why I hold her more responsible than I do her father, but if Arl Kendalls or Arl Howe want to be difficult about this I think they can manage it. Of course, we see no evidence that they had to, which is mildly troubling.

[Persephone]

Anora's more responsible than Loghain is, but still not the biggest offender. She doesn't have direct control over the Alienage. She does have some degree of direct power over the guy who does, which is why I hold her more responsible than I do her father, but if Arl Kendalls or Arl Howe want to be difficult about this I think they can manage it. Of course, we see no evidence that they had to, which is mildly troubling.

 

There is that but in addition there's also this:

 

• Playing the Noble Origin you see nobles and human servants abusing elves first hand, heck, the Warden can even encourage their Nan to beat them. The Warden can coerce an elven lady in waiting into their bedchamber, that always squicked me out, given the power imbalance
• Nelaros, fiance to female city elves, tells you that the Alienage at Highever is worse (!) than the one at Denerim. Nessa's parents tell you that bribes are necessary to move into the Alienage at Highever.
• King Cailan tells you that his advisors "all but forbid" him to venture into the Alienage

Now, if the treatment of elves, esp. city elves, is a major factor in how you deal with Anora & her father, these standards better apply to other characters too. Alistair displays blatant racism against elves at the Alienage. Leliana's conversation about elves. The nobles being far less outraged if you declare that it's elves being enslaved rather than saying "Fereldan citizens" are being enslaved. The entire nobility would have to be purged in order for that to change. Killing one man changes nothing, it's treating the symptoms, not the cause. Alistair fanning the hatred as King by being blatantly favorable towards elves without actual political clout & reforms lead nowhere except to more long term problems  (As Witch Hunt, DAII and DAI confirm).

 

Truth be told, no shem on that throne could do right by the elves. The power imbalance is too great. Why do I choose Anora though? Because she has competence, experience, willingness, political expertise in her favor. Recruiting her father cemented the alliance further and was part of the bargain. Because, and I'll stand by that, killing Loghain will not improve the lives of the elves whatsoever. The rot goes far deeper than one man.