Questa discussione ha avuto 161 risposte

[Bethgael]

There is that but in addition there's also this:

 

• Playing the Noble Origin you see nobles and human servants abusing elves first hand, heck, the Warden can even encourage their Nan to beat them. The Warden can coerce an elven lady in waiting into their bedchamber, that always squicked me out, given the power imbalance

Actually, she does have the option to say "no". This is shown if you ask Dairren first, and he accepts. If you then invite her to get to know your better, she says "Did I not hear you proposing the same to Lady Landra's son? Whatever you are thinking, I want none of it."

 

HN response? A polite, "Please excuse me."

 

Also, the option doesn't appear at all if you have not reached a certain "flirt ratio" (+2 according to the toolset). Implication is that she has to be properly into the idea--exactly the same as you have to if it's Dairren. The toolset also gives the instruction that when the answers to flirt lines are given, it is Iona who is open to taking the flirtation further. (particularly in her response to the question "do you find humans attractive?"). This is not to say there isn't a power imbalance but simply that it isn't quite as squicky as it could be.

You can also tell Nan to lay off.

 

[ETA: I was just reading through the HN origin for other reasons, and have also noted that the characterisation notes for servant_f and _m in the Toolset (i.e., Cath and Adney, the servants Nan threatens) are "secure and well cared for enough that they feel free to complain." And they do, in fact, complain, including calling Nan a "Miserable old bat" to her face. Also, if you do choose "have you considered whipping them?", Nan replies "Oh, there's no need for that." And that's immediately after being called said "miserable old bat."]

Elves have it badly, no doubt, and it is endemic. But even though Loghain isn't the reason, or cause, he worsens the situation by a huge margin, including trying to sell your father.

 

None of these reasons give the City Elf any more reason to spare him. Less, actually. He treats the elves as badly as, if not worse than, the Orlesians, and doesn't even manage to live up to the much better standard of the northern Teyrnir.

Modificata da Bethgael, 11 febbraio 2015 - 01:29 .

[TEWR]

Actually, she does have the option to say "no". This is shown if you ask Dairren first, and he accepts. If you then invite her to get to know your better, she says "Did I not hear you proposing the same to Lady Landra's son? Whatever you are thinking, I want none of it."

 

HN response? A polite, "Please excuse me."

 

Also, the option doesn't appear at all if you have not reached a certain "flirt ratio" (+2 according to the toolset). Implication is that she has to be properly into the idea--exactly the same as you have to if it's Dairren. The toolset also gives the instruction that when the answers to flirt lines are given, it is Iona who is open to taking the flirtation further. (particularly in her response to the question "do you find humans attractive?"). This is not to say there isn't a power imbalance but simply that it isn't quite as squicky as it could be.

You can also tell Nan to lay off.

 

[ETA: I was just reading through the HN origin for other reasons, and have also noted that the characterisation notes for servant_f and _m in the Toolset (i.e., Cath and Adney, the servants Nan threatens) are "secure and well cared for enough that they feel free to complain." And they do, in fact, complain, including calling Nan a "Miserable old bat" to her face. Also, if you do choose "have you considered whipping them?", Nan replies "Oh, there's no need for that." And that's immediately after being called said "miserable old bat."]

Elves have it badly, no doubt, and it is endemic. But even though Loghain isn't the reason, or cause, he worsens the situation by a huge margin, including trying to sell your father.

 

None of these reasons give the City Elf any more reason to spare him. Less, actually. He treats the elves as badly as, if not worse than, the Orlesians, and doesn't even manage to live up to the much better standard of the northern Teyrnir.

 

Interesting to know the toolset says all that info that confirms what I've said before. I was gonna talk about those things as well here (miserable old bat comments seeming like a good rapport exists between them and so forth) based on perceptions but my internet died on me as I was ready to post a few days ago.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

Why? To troll Alistair. Why else?


Kidding, I've not spared him with a city elf only with a human mage. But either a very pragmatic or a very forgiving city elf could spare him.

[dragonflight288]

Why? To troll Alistair. Why else?


Kidding, I've not spared him with a city elf only with a human mage. But either a very pragmatic or a very forgiving city elf could spare him.

 

Or an elf who gains magical powers of foresight and finds out how to kill an archdemon before Riordan tells him/her.

[Lady Artifice]

My city elf was one of my few (three out of nine) Warden's who did spare him...purely out of a sense of utilitarianism. 

 

Which is the same philosophy behind the fact that I would always spare Loghain, if it weren't for the fact that I care about Alistair more. 

[Elista]

My next playthrough is a city elf... and she will spare Loghain. He tried to sell Denerim's elves as slaves ? Now, he will protect them against the Blight, at the cost of his life if necessary. It's a punishment, and also a chance to redeem himself. She believes that one more death will not help anyone.

[Iakus]

My next playthrough is a city elf... and she will spare Loghain. He tried to sell Denerim's elves as slaves ? Now, he will protect them against the Blight, at the cost of his life if necessary. It's a punishment, and also a chance to redeem himself. She believes that one more death will not help anyone.

Pretty much what my city elf did.

 

Becoming a Grey Warden is a death sentence, either quick, if you die in the Joining, or slow if not.  Might as well get some use out of him while you can.

[DreamSever]

I always spare loghain no matter who I choose, howes the evil one who manipulates loghain, play inquisition and awakening and you will see why its good to spare him

[dragonflight288]

Pretty much what my city elf did.

 

Becoming a Grey Warden is a death sentence, either quick, if you die in the Joining, or slow if not.  Might as well get some use out of him while you can.

 

True. And the person who conscripted Duncan was actually hoping he'd die in the joining. 

[Iakus]

 

Grey Wardens are also a highly elite force that are greatly respected by most people, at least for their fighting prowess, if not for their centuries-long track record of protecting the world from the Blight. One could argue that the Joining is not just a death sentence since you can get up from that and keep living for another 20-30 years, and not just a punishment since there's still glory and honor in joining (as Jory thought there was). A sword to the face? No one's getting up from that, or continuing to walk, talk, and live for another 20-30 years.

They're also a force that holds no title or lands, and lives outside of society.  And as Jory learned the hard way, there is little real glory to be had as a Warden, just the carefully-maintained mystique that hides the reality.  If Loghain finds honor in fighting darkspawn, well, at least it's a worthy cause. 

 

Besides, there's always the chance Loghain could get a hurlock sword to the face.

[Lavaeolus]

Yeah, it's the "chance to redeem himself" my city elf has a problem with. He just committed many atrocities, including selling your people into slavery. How would it look to other nobles who think nothing of abusing their elven staff that someone who just got called up by an elf for (potentially) enslaving other elves gets an out by undergoing a ritual he could survive, getting the "honor" of joining an elite order if he does survive, and clear his name if he does well after he survives?
 
What sets a better example to human nobles used to mistreating their elven subjects with impunity? A sword to the face that no one could get up from? Or a chance to forgo the sword to undergo a ritual to joining an elite and prestigious organization where there's a chance he can survive and redeem his name?

The game doesn't do well at showing this, but joining the Grey Wardens isn't exactly considered an honour, I doubt especially among nobles. They are widely considered relics, and in Ferelden specifically they're viewed as attempted-ursurpers and only Maric's good word and fiat allowed them back in. One Warden, who views himself moreorless rescued by Duncan and is biased as hell, views it as an honour, and for storytelling convienence the people in your origin tend to because otherwise Duncan wouldn't be able to recruit you. Most other people are just being polite (dwarven society definitely likes them, but they're the exception and I doubt their views really matter here). If you're a noble, as a Warden you lose all your lands, all that chance of rulership and scholarlyness your whole life has been training for. Very few want to join the Wardens. Nobody's going to take the lesson "Oh, it'll be fine for me to do whatever" from this, it's very clearly a punishment in front of the whole Landsmeet and just as if not more effective in message than a simple execution (which is already a known and expected punishment).

Even if you think Loghain will never redeem himself, it's arguably better he be given the chance to do some right to counteract it, even if he could never fully make up for his actions. If it is a matter of reputation, you can be sure he's still hated -- in future games he's still widely called the traitor teyrn, other bad names, and generally distrusted by all the other Wardens (ironically, he's actually pretty loyal post-game). His name is never cleared, not even the crimes that are left ambiguous to the audience.

With that in mind, these can be solid motivations for a City Elf. Take this as a punishment, let the Landsmeet know to traitors "I own you.", and let them know that even if they lose they'll still be alive to see their name tattered through the mud (lots of nobles are willing to take gambles if they don't have to really face the consequences and simply immediately lose). Of course, specific characters who are too soft-hearted to kill (and may even spare Caladrius with no punishment) can be played regardless of origin. Of course, it's still possible to take the view that execution is the real justice, so it's definitely the most obvious path for specifically a City Elf PC.

[springacres]

The game doesn't do well at showing this, but joining the Grey Wardens isn't exactly considered an honour, I doubt especially among nobles. They are widely considered relics, and in Ferelden specifically they're viewed as attempted-ursurpers and only Maric's good word and fiat allowed them back in. One Warden, who views himself moreorless rescued by Duncan and is biased as hell, views it as an honour, and for storytelling convienence the people in your origin tend to because otherwise Duncan wouldn't be able to recruit you. Most other people are just being polite (dwarven society definitely likes them, but they're the exception and I doubt their views really matter here). If you're a noble, as a Warden you lose all your lands, all that chance of rulership and scholarlyness your whole life has been training for. Very few want to join the Wardens. Nobody's going to take the lesson "Oh, it'll be fine for me to do whatever" from this, it's very clearly a punishment in front of the whole Landsmeet and just as if not more effective in message than a simple execution (which is already a known and expected punishment).

Even if you think Loghain will never redeem himself, it's arguably better he be given the chance to do some right to counteract it, even if he could never fully make up for his actions. If it is a matter of reputation, you can be sure he's still hated -- in future games he's still widely called the traitor teyrn, other bad names, and generally distrusted by all the other Wardens (ironically, he's actually pretty loyal post-game). His name is never cleared, not even the crimes that are left ambiguous to the audience.

With that in mind, these can be solid motivations for a City Elf. Take this as a punishment, let the Landsmeet know to traitors "I own you.", and let them know that even if they lose they'll still be alive to see their name tattered through the mud (lots of nobles are willing to take gambles if they don't have to really face the consequences and simply immediately lose). Of course, specific characters who are too soft-hearted to kill (and may even spare Caladrius with no punishment) can be played regardless of origin. Of course, it's still possible to take the view that execution is the real justice, so it's definitely the most obvious path for specifically a City Elf PC.

Interesting points.  Neither of my PCs that have reached the Landsmeet ever considered it quite that way - that maybe even if Loghain lived, his reputation was beyond saving.  They just went the "You sold elves to blood mages?  YOU DIE!" route.

[Remmirath]

My first character, a city elf, was actually going to spare Loghain before Alistair talked him out of it -- not because he liked or admired Loghain, but because he thought it would be fitting for the man to do something worthwhile before going out. It would give Loghain a chance to prove that he actually had the interests of Ferelden at heart -- elves included -- and if not, that character would probably have seen to it that Loghain was quietly removed soon after the battle if he lived through it. He also knew there was a reasonable chance that Loghain wouldn't even survive the Joining, although of course, we know that he will. At that point, that character would've (albeit not happily) attempted to recruit just about anybody into the Wardens, since he strongly believed that they needed to bolster their numbers as much as they could. Talking him out of sparing Loghain was, on the other hand, relatively easy.

I can think of several other viable reasons, although many of them wouldn't work for most characters. Some city elves might not even really care what happened in the Alienage, although that would be rare. Some might hate Alistair enough that they're looking for anybody else to replace him. Some might have somehow grown up hero-worshipping Loghain despite being in the Alienage. Some might believe wholeheartedly enough in redemption for all to not worry about it. Some might figure it would be a better strategy, either politically or militarily (despite what happened at Ostagar, after all, Loghain is still a respected general).

[Lavaeolus]

Some might hate Alistair enough that they're looking for anybody else to replace him.

"Well, you tried to sell my father into slavery and did sell half my friends... but on the other hand Alistair keeps making corny jokes, so welcome aboard."

[Heidirs]

Yeah, it's the "chance to redeem himself" my city elf has a problem with. He just committed many atrocities, including selling your people into slavery. How would it look to other nobles who think nothing of abusing their elven staff that someone who just got called up by an elf for (potentially) enslaving other elves gets an out by undergoing a ritual he could survive, getting the "honor" of joining an elite order if he does survive, and clear his name if he does well after he survives?

 

The way my city elf looked at it, is he can try to redeem himself but he never will. If you have the opportunity to talk to Loghain (after sparing him) he knows he's done wrong and he also knows he'll never be able to make up for it. I'd rather him go through that internal torment than face a quick and easy death. Doesn't matter what the nobles think of it so long as the one responsible undergoes a proper punishment. And Loghain's not the kind of person to like his personal mistakes go. So, to that end, keeping him alive is more satisfying. 

[Xetykins]

The game doesn't do well at showing this, but joining the Grey Wardens isn't exactly considered an honour, I doubt especially among nobles. They are widely considered relics, and in Ferelden specifically they're viewed as attempted-ursurpers and only Maric's good word and fiat allowed them back in. One Warden, who views himself moreorless rescued by Duncan and is biased as hell, views it as an honour, and for storytelling convienence the people in your origin tend to because otherwise Duncan wouldn't be able to recruit you. Most other people are just being polite (dwarven society definitely likes them, but they're the exception and I doubt their views really matter here). If you're a noble, as a Warden you lose all your lands, all that chance of rulership and scholarlyness your whole life has been training for. Very few want to join the Wardens.

Funny because Bryce as high as he was as nobility goes, has a lot of respect for the wardens. Sir Gilmore also was itching to join the order. The dalish keepers, as closed to any outsiders as they are, seemed to have healthy respect for them. Come to think of it Kylon seems to treat them with awe. The dwarven respect for them was awesome for me, because the are also deep in what the wardens have to deal with, even without the blight. Personally, if I was to really make an assessment of how much we need the wardens as a player, it's the dwarves I'd base it on. There are plenty of warden reverence in the game.

And yes very few wants to join the wardens but much fewer still are good enough, and gets chosen to join, that's why they need to be ruthless. And yes you loose your titles when you become a warden, but that's certainly not because of the law of the lands, but from the wardens themselves. You wont have time to deal with anything else but the eternal war with the darkspawn if you survive. They have a one track mind and its not the pleasurable track most people think of on a daily basis :-p But you can still be what you are trained to do though. For example you can still be a scholar but probably switch your studies to help the wardens. I think.

[Lavaeolus]

Funny because Bryce as high as he was as nobility goes, has a lot of respect for the wardens. Sir Gilmore also was itching to join the order. The dalish keepers, as closed to any outsiders as they are, seemed to have healthy respect for them. Come to think of it Kylon seems to treat them with awe. The dwarven respect for them was awesome for me, because the are also deep in what the wardens have to deal with, even without the blight. Personally, if I was to really make an assessment of how much we need the wardens as a player, it's the dwarves I'd base it on. There are plenty of warden reverence in the game.

Bryce may be high, but his opinions aren't representative of all the nobles, and he is also, as I mentioned, an origin character, who all exist to help introduce the player to the Wardens. Origins is very bad at showing the other side, with it not being until Inquisition where Vivienne, a court mage admittedly from Orlais, will chastise them for being relics. Until then, you only have the word of Duncan going "Oh we killed so many the people wrongly think we're irrelevant and the Blights are over". The game just never has you meet any of these people, apart from Loghain at the start, in order to I can only assume facilitate the plot (it probably helps there is actively a Blight as you meet people). Assumedly, these people must exist in enough majority otherwise Duncan's dialogue and the game's intro (pre-character creator) are very confusing. Of course, even Bryce doesn't actually want you to join up with the Wardens, but that's pretty much him not wanting his child to get themselves killed.

The Dalish essentially have a truce with them, and so are willing to show them courtesy as a result. On the whole, they're still plenty rude to you if you're not Dalish. The dwarves genuinely do have respect for the Wardens, since they go up against the darkspawn every day, but they're not representative of the human nobility, and I doubt neither the Dalish or the dwarves really care about the outcome of the human-Landsmeet except for how it will directly affect them (the election of the ruler might be important, Loghain's fate, not so much).

And even regardless of their PR, the Wardens themselves don't tend to view it as an honour. As an organization, they just "do whatever must be done", with even Duncan himself getting the job by killing a Warden, and have mostly all accepted that they are doomed to a slow corruptuon and an ugly inevitable death. Duncan himself recruits a pickpocket, and the senior Warden at the Landsmeet outright says in front of everyone "Yeah, we'll recruit everyone, even blood mages". Hopefully no one was listening too hard there.

[Heidirs]

Have you actually talked to him as a city elf? Particularly on the slavery issue? He NEVER shows remorse for that. Other crimes? Yeah, wheedle him down enough and he'll show regret and remorse, or at least acknowledge how horrible it is. Selling elves into slavery? Nope, he'll stand by that or insist there's nothing really wrong with it to the bitter end. In fact, he gets mad at you for ruining his slave-trading operation since he lost out on the money it offered. Confront him in the Landsmeet? He makes more bullsh!t excuses and rationalizations to defend it. Confront him after the Landsmeet if you spare him (3:15 - 4:45) ? He becomes dismissive at best, contemptuous at worst.

 

"Honestly, elf, do you think that among all my crimes that's the one that keeps me up at night? It's a bit egotistical of you, don't you think?" This, coming from the same drama queen who practically froths in rage at the mere mention of Orlais, gets physically angry when recounting what "slavery" he suffered under Orlesians ("How fortunate Maric did not live to see his son ready to hand Ferelden over to those who enslaved us for a century!"), and could potentially throw a screaming b!tch fit at the Landsmeet over the oppression he suffered under the Orlesians. ("Which of you stood against the emperor when his troops flattened your fields and raped your wives?!") But when it happens to other people who are not him or his? It's irrelevant.

 

What a hypocrite.

 

Anyway, if you think the nobles' opinions don't matter, I guess you've selectively forgotten that the nobles decide the fate of city elves. Alienages can live well and prosper, squander in poverty and degradation, or die a grizzly death all depending on their human lords' whims. In fact, a lot of crimes and violence against elves happen because those in a position to stop it don't know (as Cailan didn't), don't care, or are the ones actively doing it (Vaughan, Howe, Loghain, etc). A lot of nobles mistreat or neglect the elves because they know they can get away with it. Humans who hurt elves receive little to no legal repercussions while elves who lash out against their oppressors get cracked down on.

 

So, from where my city elf is standing, letting the latest crime against the alienage fly under the radar (if not mentioned in the Landsmeet) or get brought up just to publically offer the perpetrator a chance at redemption sends a very clear message that it's okay the way they treat the alienage. They can treat the elves however they want, there won't be any serious repercussions for it. At worst, they can have the option to survive and reclaim some lost honor, glory, and redemption by joining the illustrious order.

 

No thanks.

 

For one. Loghain is going to defend hismself at the Landsmeet no matter what. He isn't about to admit guilt in front of all those nobles. 

 

After the landsmeet, he can come off at dismissive, but that's just how Loghain talks. He calls you "egotistical" because he's done countless other things worse than selling the elves into slavery. So if that's the one thing you focus on out of the others, then yeah, you are being a bit egotistical. He also points out all the elves in the aleinage who are at risk because your army isn't as large as it should be - it's not that he doesn't care about the elves, it's that in his mind selling them into slavery was a better option that letting them all die in the hands of the Darksapwn.

 

His beef with Orlais is less about slavery and more about having to fight for Fereldan's freedom and the fact that Orlais tried to retake Fereldan by convincing Calain to leave Anora and marry Celene. Loghain's own daughter is involved, so it's personal. Yes, as a city elf, your own family is sold in slavery, so in that regard Loghain is being hypocritical in not caring about your personal issues. But in his mind, he was justified in doing so by trying to protect everyone. He was doing what he thought was best. He was wrong in that, but he isn't some careless murderer.

 

As far as the nobles, Loghain is being punished for his crime. He's not being executed, but becoming a Grey Warden is hardly a reward. The Grey Wardens might be respected, but you don't see many nobles jumping at the opportunity to become one. It's common knowledge most Wardens started out as criminals, and the nobles aren't going to want a part of that. Loghain certainly sees it as a punishment. And even if he was executed, I doubt you'd be putting much fear into the hearts of the nobles around you - selling the elves into the slavery being the least of Loghain's crimes and one I doubt the nobles cared about. Keeping the man personally responsible in his own personal torment is the most justice anyone is going to get.

[Lavaeolus]

His beef with Orlais is less about slavery and more about having to fight for Fereldan's freedom and the fact that Orlais tried to retake Fereldan by convincing Calain to leave Anora and marry Celene. Loghain's own daughter is involved, so it's personal. Yes, as a city elf, your own family is sold in slavery, so in that regard Loghain is being hypocritical in not caring about your personal issues. But in his mind, he was justified in doing so by trying to protect everyone. He was doing what he thought was best. He was wrong in that, but he isn't some careless murderer.

I don't believe Loghain actually knows about the Celene "plot". He sounds shocked in Return to Ostagar,

It's worth noting that Loghain's reponse isn't entirely "what I did was justified" in regards to the elves, but that "I have also done worse things". If you ask him if he's saying what he did wasn't wrong, he'll comment that he just thinks their suffering is "like a drop in an ocean", or something along those lines. He's not entirely remorseless, though it's still a... problematic view to take. Regardless, the City Elf probably doesn't know about his relative remorse yet, so perhaps this is ultimately irrelevant in regards to the topic.

[Heidirs]

Regardless, the City Elf probably doesn't know about his relative remorse yet, so perhaps this is ultimately irrelevant in regards to the topic.

 

The choice to spare Loghain does involve a bit of meta gaming... at least from my perspective...

 

That said, looking at it solely from the character as she faces Loghain in the Landsmeet... she wants Loghain to suffer and believes death is too easy. That's what it ultimately comes down to.

[Lavaeolus]

A fine enough motivation, albeit a kinda scary one.

[Xetykins]

Bryce may be high, but his opinions aren't representative of all the nobles, and he is also, as I mentioned, an origin character, who all exist to help introduce the player to the Wardens. Origins is very bad at showing the other side, with it not being until Inquisition where Vivienne, a court mage admittedly from Orlais, will chastise them for being relics. Until then, you only have the word of Duncan going "Oh we killed so many the people wrongly think we're irrelevant and the Blights are over". The game just never has you meet any of these people, apart from Loghain at the start, in order to I can only assume facilitate the plot (it probably helps there is actively a Blight as you meet people). Assumedly, these people must exist in enough majority otherwise Duncan's dialogue and the game's intro (pre-character creator) are very confusing. Of course, even Bryce doesn't actually want you to join up with the Wardens, but that's pretty much him not wanting his child to get themselves killed.The Dalish essentially have a truce with them, and so are willing to show them courtesy as a result. On the whole, they're still plenty rude to you if you're not Dalish. The dwarves genuinely do have respect for the Wardens, since they go up against the darkspawn every day, but they're not representative of the human nobility, and I doubt neither the Dalish or the dwarves really care about the outcome of the human-Landsmeet except for how it will directly affect them (the election of the ruler might be important, Loghain's fate, not so much).And even regardless of their PR, the Wardens themselves don't tend to view it as an honour. As an organization, they just "do whatever must be done", with even Duncan himself getting the job by killing a Warden, and have mostly all accepted that they are doomed to a slow corruptuon and an ugly inevitable death. Duncan himself recruits a pickpocket, and the senior Warden at the Landsmeet outright says in front of everyone "Yeah, we'll recruit everyone, even blood mages". Hopefully no one was listening too hard there.

Regardless of where the reverence came from, the game still blatantly shows that they are indeed honored in some shape or form. And the fact that there are knights out there like Ser Jory and Sir Gilmore still considers it so. The only time I remember the wardens being shows in a really bad light and useless and relics was from loghain. Even that templar leader in the tower was only moody about letting another mage go out of their grasp. Few are btching not because they are relics but pure arseholery.

I personally don't consider it an honor if I'm playing a Cousland because I have everything that I wanted in what seems to be a perfect life and family.

What the game really did not show at all is probably the common knowledge that most of the wardens are criminals. But that's still not a detriment from hero worshiping them it seem.