161 ответов в этой теме

[Lavaeolus]

Yes, the only character who paints the Wardens in a bad light is Loghain. But it is repeatedly said, by Duncan at the least, that the Blights are considered over, the Wardens fairly useless. It's proving a hassle as far as recruitment goes for him. So, these people definitely exist, and it's not just a minor opinion. You just never seem to run into these people, only meeting people who praise the Wardens, you heroic lot. It's a flaw in the writing, but these people do exist, as they are pointed out and mentioned. Presumably, you should also meet people who trust Loghain's word, since it's a civil war with Loghain having numerous supporters, not one mad guy raiding against the rest of a whole kingdom, but there's just the group who pretend to be "Grey Warden supporters" to lure them in.

I never said it's impossible for a City Elf Warden to take it as a honour, and indeed you would have massive support doing so, but that it's not so uniformly agreed upon to be a definite fact, especially when you're sentencing the guy right in front of the Landsmeet. And you could easily have a CE who doesn't view it so, you could have one who views it as simply a "job" or what must be done, one who previously took the same view that the Wardens weren't that great, or even one that was outright conscripted (in the City Elf's case, you admittedly have to be suicidal).

[Aimi]

Presumably, you should also meet people who trust Loghain's word, since it's a civil war with Loghain having numerous supporters, not one mad guy raiding against the rest of a whole kingdom, but there's just the group who pretend to be "Grey Warden supporters" to lure them in.

also villager banter in Lothering, and bizarrely Bodahn also voices similar sentiments due to sharing an investigate option with bartenders

[Lavaeolus]

Of course, though Lothering is a pretty minor section of the game. In this case, it's probably hurt by the player being able to go to all areas in any order. I imagine the intent is that people slowly come around to the Wardens side after the initial unease concerning the whole matter to begin with, but having all the areas dynamically react to that would be a hassle and a half. Also, the dwarves and the elves, and maybe even the mages, are all kind of distant from the issue.

[Wulfram]

The notion, as talked about by Duncan, that the grey wardens are useless seemed to be mostly based on the belief that the Darkspawn were no longer a big deal. Which is by the Landsmeet not really a viable position.

[phaonica]

IIRC, the Warden's Keep DLC also suggested that the Wardens can be fallible and political.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

IIRC, the Warden's Keep DLC also suggested that the Wardens can be fallible and political.

Well, that is part of what happened, but it's more complicated than that.

[Xetykins]

Our warden became political too. If the game railroads us to loose against loghain, I wonder if we become desperate enough to become Sophia.

[Xetykins]

Presumably, you should also meet people who trust Loghain's word, since it's a civil war with Loghain having numerous supporters....

We have. Haven't you met Ceorlic yet? :-) And possibly half the landsmeet until you bring up specific points against him. But that still does not undermine the popularity of the wardens that the game has blatantly shown. I refuse to head canon it otherwise. My imagination ain't big enough to fill in those plot holes.

[Aren]

Yes there is no worse punishment  other than destroy his soul.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Our warden became political too. If the game railroads us to loose against loghain, I wonder if we become desperate enough to become Sophia.

I had one paladin Warden who absolutely would not have. She was my tenth because I find a squeaky-clean Knight in Shining Armor who does the perceived right thing without thinking (and who more importantly can't be swayed from it, because most of my Wardens are to some degree Anti-Heroic) to be boring, but I still had one.

 

The vast majority of my Wardens would have done something desparate, though. Flee the county, try to defect to Loghain, pull an Avernus... it depends on the Warden and what seems most likely to work. In fact my eleventh character wouldn't have needed to lose: she'd probably have tried demons to break a stalemate if she thought Avernus would do better the second time around.

[andy6915]

I had one paladin Warden who absolutely would not have. She was my tenth because I find a squeaky-clean Knight in Shining Armor who does the perceived right thing without thinking (and who more importantly can't be swayed from it, because most of my Wardens are to some degree Anti-Heroic) but I still had one.

 

The vast majority of my Wardens would have done something desparate, though. Flee the county, try to defect to Loghain, pull an Avernus... it depends on the Warden and what seems most likely to work. In fact my eleventh character wouldn't have needed to lose: she'd probably have tried demons to break a stalemate if she thought Avernus would do better the second time around.

 

How about straight up assassinating him? Sneak through a window, stab him through the neck in his sleep, be back out the window again without a trace. Assassinating isn't really that hard. The only reason some of my Warden's don't is that they don't want to risk proving him right by doing something like that (or because they're not rogues and thus don't have the assassin specialization), but they would if things got to that level. After that, conveniently step up to plate for commanding the armies to deal with the Darkspawn after Loghain's unfortunate murder at the hands of Crows or whatever other scapegoat I could find.

[MisterJB]

If my Cousland could, I could probably make a Tabris that would.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

How about straight up assassinating him? Sneak through a window, stab him through the neck in his sleep, be back out the window again without a trace. Assassinating isn't really that hard. The only reason some of my Warden's don't is that they don't want to risk proving him right by doing something like that (or because they're not rogues and thus don't have the assassin specialization), but they would if things got to that level. After that, conveniently step up to plate for commanding the armies to deal with the Darkspawn after Loghain's unfortunate murder at the hands of Crows or whatever other scapegoat I could find.

Some of my Wardens would take the job personally. Others would allow it, either to delegate the risk or because they're not properly trained to do it. My tenth might or might not allow it to be done (she couldn't do it herself since she's a mage) depending on whether she could rationalize that it wasn't immoral.

[springacres]

Some of my Wardens would take the job personally. Others would allow it, either to delegate the risk or because they're not properly trained to do it. My tenth might or might not allow it to be done (she couldn't do it herself since she's a mage) depending on whether she could rationalize that it wasn't immoral.

My Cousland would be quite happy to send Zevran to do it.  She can't do it herself since she's a warrior, but who better to send for the job than the assassin Loghain himself hired to kill her?

[andy6915]

My Cousland would be quite happy to send Zevran to do it.  She can't do it herself since she's a warrior, but who better to send for the job than the assassin Loghain himself hired to kill her?

 

You can ask him to actually, but he says no. If when you beat him during his ambush you make demands to join your party until waiting until he asks YOU, you can ask him if he would kill Loghain for you as one of your possible requests for sparing you. I forget his exact response, but he pretty much says it's a bad idea and that he hopes it doesn't sour his chances of you letting him live.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Which do you think is the worse punishment? And which sets a better example?

Probably immediate, disgraceful death. Though I think you're overlooking the extent to which the Joining isn't too much better. Loghain dies a hero if you sacrifice him at either Fort Drakon or the Nightmare's realm, but he still dies. Loghain is probably the only slaver in the setting who actually sees much distinction between dying honorably and dying in disgrace. (At least as far as choosing his own death is concerned.) And then there's the fact that Loghain's lands are taken away and he no longer has a title. That's something that would probably give a noble pause.

 

As for living as a Warden, there's still the Joining (which might obviate the life as a Warden punishment and looks a bit worse than a swift beheading) and the fact that he's no longer a noble. If we accept that the deterrence theory of criminal punishment is true (and I feel the need to point out that it is rather questionable) then the Joining seems like it should be rather helpful as far as that goes.

[Xetykins]

But the joining does not automatically reconfigure who you are. God knows Duncan was still deep in mischief way after the joining. I think he grew up a lot after the deep roads. So if he lives the joining without meta gaming, there is still that risk that loghain could potentially screw up your mission because of his hatred for the wardens that seems to run so deep. As most loghain sympathisers say, its because they apparently risked Maric's life. Which was really pathetic as it was Maric's decision as a grown up and a king to go on that expedition. If i recall correctly they even tried to desuade him.

[SofaJockey]

Pretty much what my city elf did.

Becoming a Grey Warden is a death sentence, either quick, if you die in the Joining, or slow if not.  Might as well get some use out of him while you can.

 

Very much this.

Even spares time in camp and later in Vigil's Keep to embarrass Loghain with her elfy morals...

When Loghain pays the price in the fade, his redemption is finally settled.

 

Warden would have been less pragmatic had Caladrius killed her father, but that was averted.

 

Vaughan Kendells on the other hand is due a brutal death from the hands of the city elf

and by a strange quirk of parallel worlds by every other possible Hero of Ferelden 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

But the joining does not automatically reconfigure who you are. God knows Duncan was still deep in mischief way after the joining. I think he grew up a lot after the deep roads. So if he lives the joining without meta gaming, there is still that risk that loghain could potentially screw up your mission because of his hatred for the wardens that seems to run so deep.

Yeah, I know. I've pointed that out several times. I just didn't think it was relevant to the post I was replying to.

[AventuroLegendary]

The City Elf should, by all means, feel nothing but hatred for Loghain. Heck, it's hard to defend him as anyone. Yes, he "wanted to fight for his people" - except for all of those knife ears living in the slums. They don't count. In any case, for Loghain, it was mostly done in the name of pride.

 

It comes down to what you think is a suitable punishment and what is pragmatic. Keeping Loghain as a sort-of slave is good, in my opinion. Then again, betraying Alistair isn't a good trade off.

[Heidirs]

Except he continues to stand by it even when nobles aren't around.

 

Right, because he believes he did what was best for Ferelden. He does admit, near the end of the game if you've recruited him, that he was wrong about you and that his plan wasn't the best idea and that yours has merit. But at the Landsmeet and when you first recruit him, he still believes his actions are just.

 

 

What bothers me is his double-standard. Loghain has to basically restrain himself from flying into a rage every time Orlais comes up because of the "slavery" he endured under them, ("How fortunate Maric did not live to see his son ready to hand Ferelden over to those who enslaved us for a century." *clenches fists*) but dismisses and trivializes the elves who actually are sold into slavery, and expects someone close to that subject to just shut up and get over it. His rage against Orlais for "enslaving" Ferelden? Totally justifiable. ("WHICH OF YOU STOOD AGAINST THE EMPEROR WHEN HIS TROOPS FLATTENED YOUR FIELDS AND RAPED YOUR WIVES??!!") An elf's rage at him for flat-out selling their family into slavery (to fund his civil war to maintain his regency, mind you), and to their own historic oppressors to boot? Ugh, egotistical little runt. We've all got bigger problems. Go sulk over there.

 

The guy is racist apparently.

 

 

 

“Despite Loghain being executed in disgrace, Queen Anora insisted on building a monument to her father, overlooking the Orlesian embassy. The statue was largely ignored, save by Anora herself, who voyaged out to the statue once a year to place flowers at its feet.”

• If Loghain died making the final blow against the Archdemon

“Queen Anora had a monument built to her father in honor of his redemption at Fort Drakon. The monument was built overlooking the Orlesian embassy... "watching" it carefully, as the local legend goes. It became popular, and in time, Loghain's darker deeds were forgotten in favor of his more heroic ones.”

 

Assuming Loghain dies by the end of the Blight no matter what, it says in the epilogue that how Loghain is remembered drastically changes depending on whether he's just executed, or dies as a Grey Warden against the Blight. An ax to the face? He dies in disgrace, and remains hated and forgotten. Dies helping against the Blight? Gains redemption over time, and becomes more fondly remembered. Lives? We see in DAA and DAI that he's doing pretty well for himself despite his many crimes, and gets to gain even more redemptive work regarding

Spoiler

rooting out corruption among Orlesian Grey Wardens--whether they get disbanded or not--helping the Inquisitor get that much closer to stopping Corypheus--whether he lives or not--and the Fade Nightmare--whether he stays behind or not.

 

Which do you think is the worse punishment? And which sets a better example?

 

In DAI, Loghain states that none of the Wardens accept him as one of their own. And while he's remembered as a hero if he dies slaying the archdemon, it's because he made the final blow, thus saving everyone, not specifically due to Grey Warden status. We don't get any indication of what people generally think of him in DAI except that the Requisitions Officer in Haven formerly served with him and feels his talents are wasted as a Warden. The Requisitions Officer at Skyhold says that he was assigned as her replacement because her views were unpopular. So it doesn't seem that Loghain is regarded very highly.

 

As I've said previously, I feel like death is too easy. I'd rather Loghain realize his mistake and live his life striving to make up for it. I feel like that is the more worthwhile punished, and the one that is potentially worse because he personally knows he can never fulfill that goal.

 

As far as what sets a better example - better example to who exactly? And how is this example we're setting accomplishing anything? I don't think there are many nobles out there thinking they'd like to take over the throne and who would see Loghain's execution as a deterrent. If anything, they probably realize it's not a good idea to tick off the Grey Wardens, but I doubt that would stop them from going after their goals - they'd just know who to steer clear from while they did so.

[Heidirs]

It comes down to what you think is a suitable punishment and what is pragmatic. Keeping Loghain as a sort-of slave is good, in my opinion. Then again, betraying Alistair isn't a good trade off.

 

Which also comes down to how you personally feel about Alistair, too...

[AventuroLegendary]

Which also comes down to how you personally feel about Alistair, too...

 

I'm not too sure about that...

 

Man I'm personally annoyed by Vs. Man who tried to sell my family into slavery

[TEWR]

 

Then again, betraying Alistair isn't a good trade off.

 

Bah, Alistair's temper tantrum and immaturity are not really on my list of priorities.