161 réponses à ce sujet

[Vanalia]

I didn't finish the book yet, I can't speak about everything that is in the book.

 

@Chiara fan: My city elf can spare his life without forgiving him for the slaves, you know. She can be intelligent and realize that it's more useful to make this skilled warrior fight and sacrifice (in DAO or DAI) against the Blight instead of just chopping his head off in front of his daughter like a barbarian, and a man who surrendered.

 

I executed him in my first playthrough, I can understand why we can execute them, but I can also understand why we can spare his life (and not because we think he's an angel or anything like this).

 

He can redeem himself twice through sacrifice.

 

 

Anora looks more like her mother (that's why she has blond hair). And Cailan is blond too, like Maric, and Rowan had brown hair, so Cailan cannot be the son of Loghain (if he was he would either have brown or black hair).

[Heidirs]

My city elf can spare his life without forgiving him for the slaves, you know. She can be intelligent and realize that it's more useful to make this skilled warrior fight and sacrifice (in DAO or DAI) against the Blight instead of just chopping his head off in front of his daughter like a barbarian, and a man who surrendered.

 

I executed him in my first playthrough, I can understand why we can execute them, but I can also understand why we can spare his life (and not because we think he's an angel or anything like this).

 

This. Like all of this.

[Ghost Gal]

@Chiara fan: My city elf can spare his life without forgiving him for the slaves, you know. She can be intelligent and realize that it's more useful to make this skilled warrior fight and sacrifice (in DAO or DAI) against the Blight instead of just chopping his head off in front of his daughter like a barbarian, and a man who surrendered.

 

I executed him in my first playthrough, I can understand why we can execute them, but I can also understand why we can spare his life (and not because we think he's an angel or anything like this).

 

And my city elf can execute him for other reasons besides the slaves, you know. She can also be intelligent and realize that recruiting someone with a long history of betraying and abandoning his allies to die (Ostagar, Uldred's mages, Jowan, the Templar he had imprisoned for searching for Jowan...), ignoring more experienced experts' advice because obviously he knows better (Anora had been ruling Ferelden for years and was groomed to become queen all her life, why should he listen to her political advice? The Grey Wardens are darkspawn experts who all swear it's a Blight; why should be believe them over his own non-existent experience studying or fighting darkspawn?), and being ******-poor at actually combating the Blight when he's had a year to deal with it on his own, would make him an unreliable ally and even even less reliable Warden.

 

"Sure, you're a loose cannon that's shot at your own side more often than the enemy all game, but I'll totally trust you not to betray or abandon or disobey us this time. Fiftieth time's the charm, right?"

 

"Hey, you spent all year hunting down and killing Grey Wardens while actively ignoring the darkspawn flooring into your country--you'll make a GREAT Grey Warden!"

 

Even ignoring the slave issue (which any city elf who gives two shits about their family would be bothered by), people can find solid reasons to decide his life is not worth sparing--or, more specifically, given his track record, they don't entrust their life to his hands (and it's not because we think he's pure evil or anything like that).

[Vanalia]

No Chiara, this is only YOUR point of view, discussed many times through other topics, many people don't see Ostagar as a betrayal and to me it wasn't one, it's called tactical retreat.

 

But yeah, let's sacrifice all the soldiers in a battle lost in advance, just in the name of honor, everyone will be happy to die for nothing.

 

And he is a very loyal Warden once you have him in the team, he can sacrifice against the archdemon, or sacrifice in DA:I if you ask him to. Far more loyal than Alistair who abandons you just before the final battle because of personal feelings, Zevran who betrays you if his approval is not high enough, Sten who turns on you if he thinks you're not strong enough, Morrigan who abandons you if you don't want to do her ritual, etc.

 

and It's the warden who can decide if Jowan will go free or be sacrificed. In my playthrough he goes free.

 

Anyway, i'll never agree with you, no need to talk about that further, I made my point in other topics, we will not start again here. 

[Xetykins]

Far more loyal than Alistair who abandons you just before the final battle because of personal feelings,

Well I don't know. Alistair never abandoned me on any of my 19 play throughs The bastard dumped me though

[Vanalia]

Well depending on the way you play, almost all of them can betray/abandon you/dump you, and as there is no particular "100% canon playthrough", we can never say that all of them are very loyal, even the warden can do pretty evil things ^^

[Xetykins]

Well depending on the way you play, almost all of them can betray/abandon you/dump you, and as there is no particular "100% canon playthrough", we can never say that all of them are very loyal, even the warden can do pretty evil things ^^

Ofc, because they're written as very human. I won't have it any other way. But the my point still stands, Alistair never abandoned me in any of my pts

[Mike3207]

Alistair will only abandon you if you spare Loghain-therefore if Xetykins never had him abandon her, she's never spared Loghain. It's not like that would be a big surprise though  .

[Xetykins]

Alistair will only abandon you if you spare Loghain-therefore if Xetykins never had him abandon her, she's never spared Loghain. It's not like that would be a big surprise though  .

Like Alistar, I also think Loghain should die and can't rp otherwise. So if that eyeroll is a sort of degrading retort to that fact, then I'll take it and wear it loud and proud

[Qun00]

Some characters would be uncaring bastards just looking for a slight gain, however. Sufficient pragmatism (combined with a belief that Loghain is capable of being effective, which is another character-by-character thing) could certainly suffice. With a less uncaring character who truly believes that their chance of ending the Blight is balancing on the razor's edge already, the desire to save their father from that fate could also outweigh the desire to punish the man who brought about his suffering immediately rather than later.

I don't believe there is any action that you can take in this or any other game that can't be explained by some character trait or other. It might or might not make sense with the whole character that you've made, or indeed any character you've ever made, but there's some combination out there that it makes sense with -- no matter what the character's origin, in this case.

I don't think pragmatism is enough.

If recruiting Loghain meant gaining an army of Grey Wardens, then sure. But it merely makes your team go from three Wardens to... (gasp) four!

Yay.

[Vanalia]

I think that some people whose warden got dumped by Alistair even if they killed Loghain (so, being dumped because the warden is not human noble) might see that as a betrayal, in a way. Everything depends on your point of view and your choices.

 

Of course a lady elf would feel bitter to be dumped by Alistair just because she is not human and not noble enough.

[Xetykins]

I think that some people whose warden got dumped by Alistair even if they killed Loghain (so, being dumped because the warden is not human noble) might see that as a betrayal, in a way. Everything depends on your point of view and your choices.
 
Of course a lady elf would feel bitter to be dumped by Alistair just because she is not human and not noble enough.

Well, I was bitter and shocked but I could have reloaded and made Anora queen so I could keep him but I didn't. It was bittersweet in the end specially when he died on the archdemon.

Don't forget, he can dump the human noble too.

[Aren]

Well I don't know. Alistair never abandoned me on any of my 19 play throughs The bastard dumped me though

I don't lost neither of them in the landsmeet,why decide 1 if i can  have both? Just make Alistair angry which is super funny,he his anger towards me(until the redemption achivement),while i smile

[Vanalia]

Having both in the team would be so funny. I can imagine a grumpy Alistair having his tent at the opposite of the camp

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I don't think pragmatism is enough.

If recruiting Loghain meant gaining an army of Grey Wardens, then sure. But it merely makes your team go from three Wardens to... (gasp) four!

Yay.

33% more people who can kill the Archdemon isn't compelling?

[Ghost Gal]

No Chiara, this is only YOUR point of view, discussed many times through other topics, many people don't see Ostagar as a betrayal and to me it wasn't one, it's called tactical retreat.

 

Hey, you're the one who played the "intelligent" and "logical" card, so I played my own "I can choose not to spare him for the same logical reasons" card.

 

But yeah, let's sacrifice all the soldiers in a battle lost in advance, just in the name of honor, everyone will be happy to die for nothing.

 

The game never confirms that Loghain is right about that, so you choosing to believe him doesn't make you more right than one who says, "Uh huh."

 

Any chance I had of believing him about the horde was dashed the moment he decided to withdraw all troops from the south and then leave the south wide open for darkspawn for months on end. Interesting how when it comes to Ostagar, the horde was too huge and powerful for Loghain to defeat with the combined efforts of his men, the king's men, and the Grey Wardens... but it's not too huge or powerful to allow to pour into the unprotected countryside and ignore for months on end while he consolidates his own power in a civil war.

 

And he is a very loyal Warden once you have him in the team

 

Stop right there. The Warden doesn't know Loghain will be loyal to them at the time that they need to decide whether or not to spare him, so "after the fact" information doesn't justify the "in the moment" decision.

 

At the time that the Warden needs to decide whether or not to spare him, Loghain has betrayed and abandoned every ally he ever had. Promised to help Cailan and the Grey Wardens at Ostagar, but left them to die instead (and immediately usurped Cailan's throne and made the Grey Wardens the scapegoat for his withdrawal for good measure). Promised to support Uldred and his mages, but abandoned them to the Templars instead. Promised Isolde he'd get a tutor for her son, sent an assassin to poison her husband instead. Promised Jowan he'd help him with the Circle after he poisoned Eamon, but left him to Isolde's "mercy" instead. (Whether or not the Warden chooses to free Jowan doesn't matter. It doesn't change how Loghain used, promised to help, then abandoned Jowan.)

 

He also consistently showed disrespect to the Grey Warden's authority as darkspawn experts, didn't take the darkspawn seriously as a threat (continued to insist that it wasn't really a Blight all the way to the Landsmeet), and consistently insisted that an "eventual" invasion by Orlais is the greater threat than the omnicidal horde slaughtering and eating and polluting its way through the countryside, even as half the nation falls to the darkspawn. He's proven to be unstable, untrustworthy, unreliable, and damn incompetent against darkspawn all game, and hasn't really admitted that he was wrong or shouldn't have done what he did all game, so I don't have any logical reason to trust him or rely on him.

 

I may be sore with Loghain for enslaving my friends and family after crying "I was a slave!" most of the game and hypocritically rationalizing elven slavery with human freedom... but even putting all that aside, I thought, "Could I logically spare Loghain anyway?" And I thought, "No, I don't ****** trust you. You haven't given me a reason to trust you."

 

Loghin has only proven he's not a good team player, so my city elf doesn't want him on her team.

 

I think that some people whose warden got dumped by Alistair even if they killed Loghain (so, being dumped because the warden is not human noble) might see that as a betrayal, in a way. Everything depends on your point of view and your choices.

 

Of course a lady elf would feel bitter to be dumped by Alistair just because she is not human and not noble enough.

 

So, spare the guy who allowed the slaughter and enslavement of your family and friends just to spite your boyfriend because he dumped you?

 

That's catty.

 

33% more people who can kill the Archdemon isn't compelling?

 

Not one who's proven he can't hit the broadside of a darkspawn horde when it's right in front of him, no.

 

Not one who chose to ignore the threat of the Archdemon in favor of battling the imaginary threat of Orlai for over a year, no.

 

Not one who's gone against orders and decided to deal with the darkspawn his way and nearly gotten everyone killed as a result, no.

 

Not one who's proven to be an unreliable loose cannon who's dealt more damage to "our side" by friendly fire than the entire darkspawn horde in the past year, no.

 

Not one who's never really conceded that he was wrong or admitted that he shouldn't have done all of the above, and therefore can likely do it again since he hasn't proven that he's learned his lesson or won't pull the same tricks in the future, at the time that the Warden needs to decide whether or not to spare him. Which is just after defeating him in a Trial by Combat because he wouldn't hear of anyone saying, "The Blight is the bigger threat" or "Grey Warden are NOT Orlesian spies! LET IT GO!"

 

One extra cannon doesn't really help the cause much when it's a loose, friendly firing cannon.

[Vanalia]

You can say whatever you want, he IS a loyal ally if you spare him, and he actually offers to sacrifice himself against the Archdemon, yes.

 

Whatever you say, it's just facts, even if you think it's not logical for him to behave like this, he DOES behave like this if you spare him. 

 

But I totally understand that you have all reasons to think that he cannot be trusted after everything he has done (roleplay-wise). BUT the fact is, if you spare him in the game, he doesn't turn on you afterwards, and he is a loyal ally, and can even sacrifice himself instead of you (and it's his idea). Facts. Official. Canon.

 

People can change. Loghain doesn't stay in error forever. If you see how he is 10 years after, you will see that he changed, in a good way.

[Seraphim24]

"Nothing personal, yes?"

"F**k nothing personal. Everything's personal."

 

+1

[Illegitimus]

You can say whatever you want, he IS a loyal ally if you spare him, and he actually offers to sacrifice himself against the Archdemon, yes.

 

Whatever you say, it's just facts, even if you think it's not logical for him to behave like this, he DOES behave like this if you spare him. 

 

But I totally understand that you have all reasons to think that he cannot be trusted after everything he has done (roleplay-wise). BUT the fact is, if you spare him in the game, he doesn't turn on you afterwards, and he is a loyal ally, and can even sacrifice himself instead of you (and it's his idea). Facts. Official. Canon.

 

People can change. Loghain doesn't stay in error forever. If you see how he is 10 years after, you will see that he changed, in a good way.

 

That Loghain can and will become a changed man isn't relevant to whether it's a believable choice for a City Elf to decide that Loghain is so valuable that he's worth keeping unless you decide your City Elf has precognitive powers.  Which would explain some things.  

[Vanalia]

I'm just saying that, if that cityelf decides to act like Leliana (merciful character), it was worth the try.

 

I'm not saying that a cityelf doesn't have reasons to kill him. It's just that if the elf thinks that he will betray, run, be a coward, etc, sparing him would prove him/her wrong.

 

The elf can also think that death is not enough of a punishment, and that being a grey Warden, having to kill darkspawn all the rest of his life in the Deep roads, would be a better punishment.

 

The cityelf can also be a Jedi and have a vision of the future 

[sylvanaerie]

I'm just saying that, if that cityelf decides to act like Leliana (merciful character), it was worth the try.

 

I'm not saying that a cityelf doesn't have reasons to kill him. It's just that if the elf thinks that he will betray, run, be a coward, etc, sparing him would prove him/her wrong.

 

The elf can also think that death is not enough of a punishment, and that being a grey Warden, having to kill darkspawn all the rest of his life in the Deep roads, would be a better punishment.

 

The cityelf can also be a Jedi and have a vision of the future 

 

The bolded makes no sense from a roleplay stance at all.  For someone metagaming, who knows what will happen, sure.  Since the OP was talking about sparing him from a roleplay stance, the bolded doesn't work.  Who the heck has someone they don't trust in their camp when they go to sleep at night?  Loghain's behavior after the joining can't be considered in the equation of "Why would a City elf spare him?"

 

Following along this line of reasoning, while I love Zevran, if I roleplayed, most of my wardens would out and out kill him when met.  The kinder ones would let him go thinking either the Crows will punish him for failure, or Loghain will kill him outright since he's a loose thread, and thus more of a threat to his employer than the warden.

 

Leliana admits she's a killer who out and out played with her marks.  Sten murdered an entire family when he had a hissy fit over a lost sword.  Oghren is a drunken loose canon who slew someone in the Provings.  Shale stomped her last owner into paste--and this  you find out before recruiting her.  Most companions wouldn't be recruited from an RP standpoint, or be dismissed once you get to know them better.  Unless your warden is a bigger killer than they are.

 

The whole "worse punishment to be a GW" thing, I could see someone justifying it if the CE hates being a GW.  Even then, it goes back to the "Do I trust this mook not to slit my throat while I sleep?", but it is a workable excuse from an RP standpoint.  Barely.  Selling the PC's family to Tevinter blood mages is a pretty heinous act.  Frankly, for my CE, at that point, a quick death is too good for him, and making him a GW is not assured of giving him the kind of painful death my CE wants to inflict on him.  

 

I'm assuming the second bolded is a joke since you did   emoti.

[Xetykins]

Meh if I meet dodgy characters like Zev and Sten, I don't mind partially giving them a pass. Specially Sten who owned up his mistakes right away and is willing to atone to the point that he'd rather die in that cage than be let out without the possibilities of atonement. If Loghain can just be a man and own up his mistakes, and not smear them on others, way way way before my sword or Alistair's is inches from his neck, then I'd probably be sparing him half the time too, because I REALLY like him in the Stolen Throne. As in squee-worthy like.

[jros83]

When it comes to Loghain, I handwave all concerns by telling myself "My former life is done, I have to look at everything as a Grey Warden now."

[straykat]

Meh if I meet dodgy characters like Zev and Sten, I don't mind partially giving them a pass. Specially Sten who owned up his mistakes right away and is willing to atone to the point that he'd rather die in that cage than be let out without the possibilities of atonement. If Loghain can just be a man and own up his mistakes, and not smear them on others, way way way before my sword or Alistair's is inches from his neck, then I'd probably be sparing him half the time too, because I REALLY like him in the Stolen Throne. As in squee-worthy like.

 

All the choices there make sense.. it just depends where I'm coming from in the story.

 

Like I could kill Sten on a Cousland, just because his nephew's death is still fresh in his mind. So to meet some giant who just did that to someone else's family doesn't encourage much mercy. I also could just do it on a character who's self-righteous. On the flipside, saving him sort of makes sense on my Dalish who killed those humans in the beginning. They're assholes, and now paying for it as a Warden. And she understands Sten's line about a "regrettable life". Perhaps Redemption is a big theme in their minds.

 

As for City Elf and Loghain... what if they killed Vaughn and then realized what a disaster that turned out to be too. It's a diaster either way, but they don't know the details. So they blame the Alienage's suffering on themselves. And at the end, they let Loghain go.

 

I admit though, that's one tough...

[Cobra's_back]

"Nothing personal, yes?"

"F**k nothing personal. Everything's personal."

I don't find it particularly difficult to roleplay characters that kill people that try to kill them. The slavery, the politics, the propaganda, all that is there too in varying degrees depending on the character, but they're just window dressing.

I have played a few characters that keep Loghain alive, mostly because I wanted to see what it was like rather than actually considering it an interesting roleplay. None of them were city elves.

 

I agree 100% on this. I kept him alive only once. City Elf and Noble would love to take off his head.