25 réponses à ce sujet

[SneakySultan]

I decided to try out the legionnaire, after getting a fairly decent shield, with the intent on going all out tank. After a few matches on threatening though, I noticed that even though I literally couldn't die and I was pulling most of the enemies, that I didn't really contribute much overall. I get max 10-20 kills depending on how good our dps is but other than that my teammates either just run ahead without waiting for me to grab aggro or they just kill everything before I can even block a hit. It really makes me feel that I'm just along for the ride.
What I'd like to know is does anyone else feel that having a dedicated tank is a good thing, or if it is better to just get a tough dps like the reaver elementalist.

[haxaw]

I'd caution against using the word "viable". People have very different ideas of what that word means, and very different bars they set.

 

In this case, though, I doubt anybody will argue that Legionnaire is "unviable", by any definition of the word. Once you grab some good skills (Walking Fortress+Upgrade, War Cry, Counterstrike, Payback Strike, among many others), you're night impossible to kill, almost independent of your gear. Judging from your post, you know this already and don't seem to have a problem doing your job.

 

If you think Threatening is too easy for you and your teammates don't "need" you, then maybe give Perilous a shot. A well-played tank is more useful the higher the difficulty is, so that may be the answer to your concern.

 

Do keep in mind team composition, however. If the rest of your team already has very good survival ability, they might not care for what Legionnaire can bring to the table. If you have 3 PuG Archers, on the other hand, a well played tank can mean the difference between stage 1 wipe and 5/5 clear.

[JRandall0308]

Measure your success by something other than the usual (and boring) kills and such.

 

It's like being a lineman in the NFL. You don't get direct credit for the yards gained by your running back or completions by your quarterback... but you can take pride in making their success possible.

[Torkelight]

Measure your success by something other than the usual (and boring) kills and such.

 

It's like being a lineman in the NFL. You don't get direct credit for the yards gained by your running back or completions by your quarterback... but you can take pride in making their success possible.

Besides, kills dont mean a thing. What does mean anything is 1) succesfull completion, 2) the xp gained 3) the money procured. Last part is probably the most important in my view, which means that it is imo more important to actually crush pots and pick up gold than killing enemies in essence. Its not as fun of course though.

Too answer the OP, wether or not you are of any use depends on your team. If your team doesnt steamroll threatening them they might see and appreciate your role of managing aggro, but if they do - like many do now - things just melts on threatening. Managing aggro is not needed as enemies dies in seconds anyway. Personally I just think that if thats the case I'd much rather play perilous.

 

My most played character is lego and being lucky having probably the best gear available for it, I do actually contribute quite a lot to damage. I do think that my biggest contribution though, is aggro management, which on perilous is quite helpfull, 20% extra damage to taunted enemies and on stage 5 the ability to not only tank all the commanders but also all the enemies on the stage at the same time, and I can easily ressurrect friends at the same time. With my lego your are basically almost guaranteed a succesfull extraction. Those important tasks doesnt nescessitate the gear that I have, they can be done almost regardless of items, thanks to cookie cutter builds.

[SneakySultan]

I suppose I should have phrased the title differently. I meant that I didn't feel that a dedicated tank build was useful when I played as one. That said, it's a good point that the players might just not care for whether there is a tank whether one is neededor not. I'll continue playing as the legionnaire mainly because it's very refreshing, when compared to the archer and assassin, being able to just take all the hits and be at full health is satisfying. But I definitely will try perilous and I'll keep in mind the composition of the party. Thank you for the responses as well.

P.s. I apologize in advance for typos as I am on my phone and sometimes autocorrect goes nuts.

[Torkelight]

I suppose I should have phrased the title differently. I meant that I didn't feel that a dedicated tank build was useful when I played as one. That said, it's a good point that the players might just not care for whether there is a tank whether one is neededor not. That said I'll continue playing as the legionnaire mainly because it's very refreshing, when compared to the archer and assassin, being able to just take all the hits and be at full health is satisfying. But I definitely will try perilous and I'll keep in mind the composition of the party. Thank you for the responses as well.

P.s. I apologize in advance for typos as I am on my phone and sometimes autocorrect goes nuts.

 

Bottom line is that if they are not too well equipped for the difficulty, they will find a tank really usefull. If they are too well equipped for the difficulty it wouldnt matter if they have a tank or not, things will die before you are able to approach them anyway. Your equipment is mostly irrelevant as your contribution isnt reliant on damage but how you play it and how you set your skills up. This (steamrolling) will most often NOT be the case on perilous, but some groups are so well equipped and use cookie cutter builds, and compositions, that they even steamroll perilous, but those games are usually private. More like always private...

I might as well mention my build. It's To the death, War Cry, Walking fortress and Counterstrike. Upgrade everything and get flow of battle and the 20% damage to taunted enemies-passive (its right next to war cry) as well. Use War cry and counterstrike to manage aggro, and counterstrike for more survivability. Walking fortress when needed, and should also be popped when you tank larger groups to be able to chain it, as CD will be shorter the more enemies you are surrounded by. Basically invulnerability mode. To the death on larger enemies or bosses. It generates tons of guard and gives your whole party a massive damage increase against that enemy. Great on bosses. Equip whatever you can find that increase your % chance to crit for even shorter CDs. Mine runs with Caliban, 2x10% crit chance rings, 15% cd amulet and Dwarven proven shield.

[Altruismo]

As most people have said, the Lego shines more when the challenge to the team is greater.

So I'd also advise you try the step up to Perilous, but since it sounds like you're playing pick-up groups I'd give you an extra tip.

If you want to Pug perilous, don't search for perilous games as you will almost certainly find random chaos and people that are convinced that grinding slowly through pulls with an AW while ignoring anyone who might need help/support is fun. Find a threatening pug that are smashing it and stay together for a couple of rounds, then suggest to the group leader that the group should try Perilous.

[Diego Vargas]

People who play legionnaire are not supposed to be "gettin teh frags" to be doing work.

 

This is the part that most derps that play this game don't get. 

 

IMO - IT IS WAY HARDER TO PLAY GOOD SUPPORT THEN IT IS TO PLAY STRONG "DEEPS" (and more rewarding mentally anyways)

 

I think I play a decent keeper, but when I try playing my assassin and we get a keeper in party 9/10 that keeper is god awful thinking he is a dps class spamming his chain lightning over and over lol (opposed to making sure people have barriers up proactively and trying to disable enemies).

 

My wish for bioware is to add more support based achievements, so tanks that do a good job keeping aggression/cc'ing or keepers who do barrier / cc / condition curing get rewarded / recognized.

 

You can immediately tell when you are in  a party with good support players on perilous difficulty and ones that think they are really hard to kill damage dealers lol.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

I don't mind playing a tank legionnaire, and getting fewer kills in the process. I have no idea how most people feel (but I could guess.) How most people feel doesn't bother me much, though. I'm pretty sure my teammates appreciate having someone collecting mobs for them to use AoE attacks on while avoiding most of the damage.

[Shinnyshin]

Legionnaire's is ridiculously strong. And will almost certainly be nerfed in the long term. In its own way, it's far more overpowered than Arcane Warrior.

Tip: ditch Shield Wall asap. That skill is terrible.

[Torkelight]

Tip: ditch Shield Wall asap. That skill is terrible.

Shield wall works fine on threatening, but is a total waste of skillsslot for lego on perilous.

[SneakySultan]

Shield wall works fine on threatening, but is a total waste of skillsslot for lego on perilous.

I find shield wall to be pretty useful, on threatening anyway, to parry attacks that would knock me down like the venatori's and templar commander's for example. I've yet to use it on perilous but why do you think its not good for perilous?

[Shinnyshin]

I've already got something written up, let me copy paste it.  TLDR, Counterstrike + Walking Fortress is god-tier, Shield Wall is terrible for a difficulty with any difficulty.  And you feel useless playing a Legionnaire on Routine/Threatening, where everyone murders the map before you can press a single button.

 

General Legionnaire build is Fortress, Counterstrike, Warcry, and a 4th flex pick.  I strongly favor the free Payback Strike but I've seen some good cases for To the Death.  At that point, though, it's not a matter of right or wrong.

 

 In theory, Shield Wall sounds pretty good. You spend Stamina to convert incoming damage to Guard at the cost of not attacking as often--which, since you're a tank class shouldn't really be a problem, right? Ideally, you'd blow your cooldowns getting aggro and then turtle with Shield Wall until that comes back up, getting a few attacks in here or there. But here's where it all falls apart.

 

On Perilous, enemies can do absurd amounts of damage in flurries of attacks that tear through all your Stamina and all your Guard in almost no time, especially with the current armor bug--though it was only slightly better before. Red Templars are especially cruel but all factions have things that can make your life a living hell. So when your Shield Wall collapses, you have to desperately hope your cooldowns are up and you can cycle them. The more damage enemies do, the faster everything falls apart for you...and Perilous is where they do the most damage. A Knight can potentially 1-shot you through full guard or come really, really close. And an empowered Horror with homing shots can do the same.

 

On Perilous, the only reliable way for a Lego to tank is to rely on true invulnerability. Walking Fortress has an 8 second duration and essentially a 24 second cooldown (since it goes on CD the minute you pop, not when invulnerability ends). So your entire playstyle really has to be around maximizing that invulnerability--and the main way you do that is through Flow of Battle. Every time you crit, you get -1s to your cooldowns. So if, during those 8 seconds, you get hit by 12 enemies and get 12 crits, you can go infinite on Walking Fortress. Even if you don't quite go infinite, you can pop War Cry and then kite to buy you that crucial last second--something that's not quite an option if you're out of Stamina from Shield Wall.

 

This isn't as hard as it sounds for a number of reasons. First of all, it seems Counterstrike damage can crit and gives you cooldown. Also, it seems like Runes crit independently of weapons and also give you cooldown--though both of these are really, really hard to test. And Axes, which usually come with +crit chance stats, have insane attack speed.

 

What this means is that the tankiest Legionnaire is one who constantly attacks like a madman, desperate for crits. Funny enough, you often have an easier time with huge groups than a few enemies since it's really, really easy to go infinite on Fortress vs a huge crowd since you can hit 2-5 people per swing. You get Payback Strike for free, it has a huge arc and can easily hit 3-5 people with a bit of care meaning 3-5 potential crits with 1 attack, and it cleanses CC. If you're kiting/attacking for cooldowns, not being able to attack for even two seconds could mean you don't get Walking Fortress up in time...and Payback allows you to recover from that easily. Plus if you need to dodge attacks while waiting for cooldowns--another mark against Shield Wall, by the way, since you can just dodge a good chunk of damage--then cleansing the CC is absolutely invaluable.

 

Sorry if that's a bit rambling since it's rather late but I hope I've adequately described the Legionnaire playstyle that me'n mine rely on to reliably anchor entire teams in Perilous. A month ago (more now), it would be a much more controversial build...but more and more people on Perilous are using this exact gameplay in response to the nature of enemy damage. If you've any more questions or I haven't properly explained my stance anywhere, feel free to shoot me a line.

Oh, and one thing I forgot. Converting Stamina to Guard while reducing incoming damage is much less good when you already have 2 other abilities that do very similar things but often better. Counterstrike directly reduces incoming damage by CCing people who attack you and autofills guard, War Cry often autofills guard and is being spammed a great deal. Both provide a lot of team utility and a +20% AoE team damage bonus.

[Torkelight]

I find shield wall to be pretty useful, on threatening anyway, to parry attacks that would knock me down like the venatori's and templar commander's for example. I've yet to use it on perilous but why do you think its not good for perilous?

 

Just read the post below your post for an answer. It is my sentiments exactly. Bottom line is that Shield wall will eat up your stamina in one hit, and probably damage you at the same time if you use it. Such is the DPS of perilous. Also remember that one hit from probably anything will remove your full guard with just one hit. Thats why you only build for invulnerability on that difficulty, and when you do that - there is no room for shield wall in those four skillslots. My build is as metioned: TTD, counterstrike, walking fortress, war cry. Only optional I guess is TTD, but I do really really like it. The way to use it is to use counterstrike, which gives you 6 seconds of immunity, atleast to melee attacks, and chaining walking fortress which makes you immune, damage reduce CD time and build guard. 

 

TTD can also be used this way, as every hit you take generate 50% guard and you usually generate that faster than you take damage, depending on what you are tanking. You also should take War Cry for better aggro management and some extra guard for abit extra guard again, which leaves you with zero skills to vary with. If you dont want to take TTD, on perilous I guess payback strike is the only usefull option that synergizes with this build as it can hit multiple enemies, which means that you can get multiple critical hits, and it knocks down and also removes disabilities.

 

Yes, Shield wall is great for blocking incoming damage on routine and threatening but the above reason makes it useless for anything else than blocking some soft archer shots on perilous. You wont need that if you are invulnerable. Also, attacks that knock you down wont knock you down either if you are invuln.

 

Allthough, not using shield wall wont make you feel more effective on threatening. The only way to do that is to play in groups that have less damage, i.e. does not steamroll the difficulty so that you can feel that you are helping.

[haxaw]

I find shield wall to be pretty useful, on threatening anyway, to parry attacks that would knock me down like the venatori's and templar commander's for example. I've yet to use it on perilous but why do you think its not good for perilous?

 

Shinnyshin's reply is absolutely spot on. Even when I was running exclusively Threatening, I quickly came to the conclusion that Shield Wall, while a good skill in and of itself, was simply outclassed by all the other magnificent tools the Legionnaire has been blessed with. It got to the point where I refused to use Shield Wall on principle, and just slashed away like a madman on my beloved Moon Axe (long live the epic horn-hits). 

 

As a side note, it's unfortunate that Counterstrike and Walking Fortress are at the very bottom of their respective trees, meaning I don't feel "complete" until Lvl 15ish (don't remember the actual number off the top of my head). Though to be fair, this might not be a bad thing if we're considering balance.

[Torkelight]

... and just slashed away like a madman on my beloved Moon Axe (long live the epic horn-hits). 

 

Sounds like a boat entering a dock. It does proc very often which can be a bit annoying (the sound that is). While the proc is benefitial to your whole group no matter where they are positioned - I still prefer Caliban, as I am lucky to have both. With that weapon I dont need any Hok on rings for safety and can use both my 10% to crit chance rings instead for that decreased CD. I also do a LOT more damage.

[poloboyz93]

Legionaire Definetely. Templar is for demons if you're running anti-demon passives as well as pillar of light, it will destroy demons. As for other factions, dunno if the Templar is really better than using the legionaire for.

[TormDK]

Legionaire Definetely. Templar is for demons if you're running anti-demon passives as well as pillar of light, it will destroy demons. As for other factions, dunno if the Templar is really better than using the legionaire for.

 

Unfortunately, Bioware decided to go completely overboard on the Lego compared to the templar from a tanking perspective. Prehaps this will be changed at some point when they decide to start doing balancing changes.

[haxaw]

Sounds like a boat entering a dock. It does proc very often which can be a bit annoying (the sound that is). While the proc is benefitial to your whole group no matter where they are positioned - I still prefer Caliban, as I am lucky to have both. With that weapon I dont need any Hok on rings for safety and can use both my 10% to crit chance rings instead for that decreased CD. I also do a LOT more damage.

 

Before I got my Dwarven Crusher a few days ago, I was also running Moon Axe on my Templar. I have to admit, WraPur-ing with an emphatic Woonnnnwww to cap it off is pretty satisfying.

 

Still waiting on Caliban...and crit rings...and HoK rings...sigh

[KalGerion_Beast]

Legionaire Definetely. Templar is for demons if you're running anti-demon passives as well as pillar of light, it will destroy demons. As for other factions, dunno if the Templar is really better than using the legionaire for.

The WoH (melee primer) + Spell Purge (mage detonator) combo is a devastating nuke, regardless of faction.

 

For the difference, it depends on if you want a tank or damage focused class.  Templar may have a shield. but I wouldnt call her a tank.  

Legionnaire's shield is for the group, Templar's is for herself.   

[SpaceV3gan]

By Tank I assume the OP is referring to the Lego, the only true dedicated Tank on this game.

I've started playing the Lego for real just over a few days ago (part of my 'leaving the mages behind' effort) and I have to say that now he is one of my favorite - if not my absolute favorite character.
Spamming Payback Strike in the middle of a crowd while being unshakably tanky is just so damn rewarding. You never ever need to Shield Wall, not even on Perilous. The Lego is on his own feet is a Shield Wall. And what can be said about To the Death ability on bosses? Paired with one Archer, a Lego can facetank and kill the Red Templar Commander on Perilous in a a matter of seconds, as if he were a regular mook.

Besides, the Lego is the embodiment of the Geth Juggernaut in a Volus package, and that alone is praiseworthy.

[haxaw]

You never ever need to Shield Wall, especially not even on Perilous.

 

Fixed. On lower difficulties, stamina drain from Shield Wall tends not to be that big of a deal, but on Perilous just a couple of attacks will run you dry and helpless.

[coldflame]

With the current aggro system ingame, the word "tank" has no meaning.

[nranola]

Having a dedicated tank is super important. What good is your dps if half the team is dead? Sure, it sucks not getting as many kills in as the other folks, but that's just you doing your job well as a tank.

[Quasinerdo]

I find the legionnaire to be a very solid class and perhaps more independent of gear than the DPS classes as someone else mentioned.

 

The commentary about groups not using the tank as a tank and the DPS classes killing stuff before you even get to it are pretty spot on imo for routine and threatening.

I have not played perilous with a good group yet to know how they work together. I have seen the legionnaire have to pick up the pieces a lot though when a PUG splits up and gets too much aggro or otherwise would wipe.

 

The taunts are a key aspect of this class but im still working out how the aggro system works. Sometimes it seems even with taunts mobs bypass you for others in the group (even randomly for the player way way behind and not even in the fight).

 

I guess with the gear people are looting and the RNG giving up top tier gear to some players very early you can often have groups where aggro management isn't even necessary.

 

Most games I play the xp rewards suck badly for any sort of defensive tank. The rewards are heavily swayed toward the people delivering damage.