23 réponses à ce sujet

[Basher of Glory]

After some years I started the OC again.

 

With one of my parties I managed to get Neeshka to the coin without being detected. A greater invisibility spell + her skills was enough.

 

Now, with another party I tried the same, but she gets detected, no matter what I do.

 

Of course the rest of the party stays back near the entrance. And - of course - she finds and disables all traps.

 

She has a DEX of 22 (with items and buffs) and her move silently / hide skills are 17 / 19 (+ the greater invis spell).

Currently she is level 7.

 

I don't remember which level she was in my other game, but I assume, it was one or two more.

 

Nevertheless, normally her current stats should be more than enough to remain undetected.

 

Is this one of these level-things, which prevent you doing something, no matter how "good" you are, while with some more levels the same quest will be a cakewalk?

 

[I_Raps]

One of the patches/expansions dramatically changed things for sneakers.  In the old days, I could easily sneak off with the coin - also waltz through Fihelis' estate and Aldanon's, but not since.  It's not worth the time for a legit party anymore (in fact, it may be impossible with what's actually available at that point, including XP);  just bash your way through.  You might try it out with consoled items with increasing sneak bonuses just to see how big the change was (I was interested enough to think of the idea, but not enough to follow through).

 

 

p.s.  Speaking of dramatic changes made by a patch/expansion, you might want to check this out.  I think this was caused at the same time that sneaking was nerfed:  Logram Bug *solved*

[Basher of Glory]

But it is as I wrote: A level or two later  I can sneak up to the coin without any problem.

 

One other thing seems to be true, though:

 

During the bandits mission any sneaking and even improved invisibility seems to do nothing: These bandits spot you anyway.

I didn't know, that a high spot-skill enables to "see" even someone made invisible by that spell.

[Arkalezth]

But it is as I wrote: A level or two later  I can sneak up to the coin without any problem.

Unless it's just luck, that's weird; a level or two shouldn't make a huge difference. If you haven't tried using them, though, there are some spells that buff skills (Heroism - greater or normal, Camouflage, Prayer...).

I haven't played the OC in a looong time, but I'd be surprised if the quest was level-dependant or something like that.

I didn't know, that a high spot-skill enables to "see" even someone made invisible by that spell.

It doesn't. Even if you're using normal Invisibility, they'd need to be under the effects of True Sight/Blind Sight/See Invisibility.

Could try using Sanctuary or Ethereal Jaunt, if you have a character that can cast them.

[Basher of Glory]

Ok, I tried it again:

 

Level 7 Neeshka, with greater inv. from Quara: Failed. Detected at second trap.

 

Retried level 7 Neeshka, again detected at second trap. Just for clarification: She disabled the trap without a problem.

 

Level 9 Neeshka with spell from Quara: No problem at all. To confirm it, I reloaded three times and started over: Always the same result: No problem.

 

Of course she has 2 points more in move silently and hide. But I doubt, that this could make the difference.

[Dann-J]

 

She has a DEX of 22 (with items and buffs) and her move silently / hide skills are 17 / 19 (+ the greater invis spell).

 

 

 

If detection is due to a DC check against the Hide and/or Move Silently skills, then invisibility won't be doing anything to help you.

 

 

During the bandits mission any sneaking and even improved invisibility seems to do nothing: These bandits spot you anyway.

I didn't know, that a high spot-skill enables to "see" even someone made invisible by that spell.

 

They might be hearing you rather than seeing you. If they make a successful listen check then they'll run to where you were when they heard you. Just because they're running towards you doesn't mean they can attack you. If you don't cancel the invisibility by attacking them, they might just walk straight past you.

[Arkalezth]

If an enemy can hear you, he can see and attack you.

Just a thought, but maybe you need to pass a roll vs. a set DC, rather than vs. the enemies' skills? For example, maybe you need 18 hide in order to walk past the second trap undetected. Probably not the case, but I guess it's a possibility.

Either way, give it a try with spells and items that buff your skills, if there are any available.

[Dann-J]

If an enemy can hear you, he can see and attack you.
 

 

Only if you're using stealth mode. Not if you're invisible by magical means.

 

I've cast invisibility spells on a party member many times, and used them to walk alone amongst hostiles. Occasionally they perk up and run to the point where they heard you, but as long as you remain invisible they can't attack you. If you're silent enough, you can walk off and leave them wandering about the last place they heard you. If you can't move silently it can be disconcerting having enemies following you about trying to spot you, but as long as you hold your nerve and don't attack them, they can't do anything to you.

 

I've never tried that against enemies that can cast True Seeing, See Invisibility or Invisibility Purge though. For all I know, the AI might be smart enough to use them. Then your goose would be cooked.

[Arkalezth]

Only if you're using stealth mode. Not if you're invisible by magical means.

Yeah, I thought you were referring to stealth with no invis.
 

I've cast invisibility spells on a party member many times, and used them to walk alone amongst hostiles.

Same here, countless times, but...

Occasionally they perk up and run to the point where they heard you

I've never had that happen. I think I recall some patch mentioning something about invisibility and listen, but in my experience, if you're invisible, you're also inaudible.

[kevL]

i think Tony's AI has a setting that lets player turn off sound detection -- sound det. might have problems if it has unlimited range, since creatures might run right across the map. I've definitely experienced the "hold your nerve" syndrome ....

[Dann-J]

I've never had that happen. I think I recall some patch mentioning something about invisibility and listen, but in my experience, if you're invisible, you're also inaudible.

 

I've mostly seen it happen with encounter-spawned creatures. There might be some additional AI flags that get set on them when they spawn. The GetIsEncounterCreature() function can differentiate them from other creatures, for instance.

[Arkalezth]

Not sure what you mean by "encounter-spawned". Creatures that spawn as you walk through a certain part of the map?

If it's related to an AI setting, it's probably off by default. Or maybe it's something about heartbeat detection? Not exactly the same thing, but there's a module where you use a disguise to avoid being attacked, and I had to turn that option off or enemies would be hostile.

[Dann-J]

Not sure what you mean by "encounter-spawned". Creatures that spawn as you walk through a certain part of the map?
 

 

Creatures spawned by encounter triggers, rather than placed manually in the toolset.

[Basher of Glory]

Just to see what happens, I've made an item via the toolset, which has a greater invis. spell (13).

 

With this Neeshka can walk past the guards, disarm traps etc. and nothing happens at all.

 

Just one uncertainty:

 

If Neeshka is invisible and disarms a trap, does that mean she will loose the spell and has only her hide-skill left?

I thought, that the invis. spell stays as long as someone does not attack or does another hostile action.

[Arkalezth]

I thought, that the invis. spell stays as long as someone does not attack or does another hostile action.

This is correct. Keep in mind that the Greater version doesn't last very long (1 minute and 18 seconds in your example, so I'd use normal Invisibility), but if that's not the issue here and the spell is just running off when you disarm a trap, then we may as well conclude than that particular quest is just fucked up.

[Naeryna]

Try what I did... It work every time I try it (it's relatively recent trick)

 

Command your companions to stay grounded, then lure bandits using toughest character near rest of your part. Command attack nearest, then micromanage your party. Watch nearest trap and don't let anyone cast summon creature or move near trap. That's how you should survive first group of bandits.

 

After your clear first group of bandits, you will need to disarm a trapped door. Command everybody to stay your ground. Use Neeshka to disarm a trap, but don't open the door. Move Neeshka near rest of the part, and use your toughest character to lure bandits near Neeshka and the rest. Command attack nearest.

 

I don't think you need to do this often. There are bunch of traps, but only between first and second group of bandits and after second group of bandits there are no traps.

[Basher of Glory]

Try what I did... It work every time I try it (it's relatively recent trick)

 

Command your companions to stay grounded, then lure bandits using toughest character near rest of your part. Command attack nearest, then micromanage your party. Watch nearest trap and don't let anyone cast summon creature or move near trap. That's how you should survive first group of bandits.

 

After your clear first group of bandits, you will need to disarm a trapped door. Command everybody to stay your ground. Use Neeshka to disarm a trap, but don't open the door. Move Neeshka near rest of the part, and use your toughest character to lure bandits near Neeshka and the rest. Command attack nearest.

 

I don't think you need to do this often. There are bunch of traps, but only between first and second group of bandits and after second group of bandits there are no traps.

In this scenario I try to do it unseen, just because I like the RP-idea.

[Arkalezth]

Just out of curiosity: RP aside, is there any benefit or difference in the outcome between being stealthy or fighting your way through?

[Basher of Glory]

Just out of curiosity: RP aside, is there any benefit or difference in the outcome between being stealthy or fighting your way through?

I don't remember...but as far as I know, there were no achievements like we have them in nowadays games.

For some quests you get a history trait, like "Butcher of Ember" and "Wrongfully Accused".

 

For at least one quest you get a good amount of extra XP if you manage to keep a certain squad of greycloaks alive etc.

 

For Neeshka's quest I don't believe, that there are differences if you slaughter your way through or prefer the silent way.

But as I wrote, I am not certain, perhaps some XP extra like in aforementioned quests.

[Arkalezth]

Yeah, I wasn't thinking of achievements (I know there aren't... though I've seen them implemented in a module or two), just of different quest rewards, dialogues or whatever.

[Tchos]

The stealth quest option in SoZ felt like a huge apology for this quest. 

[Basher of Glory]

The stealth quest option in SoZ felt like a huge apology for this quest. 

Yeah.... there was something...

 

Help me to remember please, which quest was that in particular?

[Tchos]

I need to avoid spoilers for a different expansion the OC forum, but sneaking through a particular temple is a viable and rewarding option.

[Basher of Glory]

I need to avoid spoilers for a different expansion the OC forum, but sneaking through a particular temple is a viable and rewarding option.

Ah, ok...I remember and agree