48 réponses à ce sujet

[haxaw]

Everyone promotes their characters for different reasons, but I've found myself avoiding certain class promotions despite how much I love playing that particular character. A big reason for me is how each character's leveling experience differs, starting at level 1. It seems that the layout and placement of abilities in the skill trees results in varying degrees of "leveling smoothness", if you will.

 

Put another way, the point at which I felt each character had achieved its "core build" or was able to "come online" was very different.

 

For example, the Core Level for Reaver is probably 7, since that's the earliest you can grab both Rampage and Dragon Rage. A Keeper has the almighty Barrier at level 1, maybe 2 to get the cooldown reduction. Of course, the Core Level will likely depend on what build you prefer to use, but we can at least outline a range.

 

Also, keep in mind this isn't a cross-class comparison. I'm strictly asking the question "For this class, at what level do you feel you are able to achieve the main goal your build is meant to do?"

 

I'm interested in seeing what other people think, and compiling a tier list of sorts based on this idea. Please respond with the class, the Core Level, and a brief explanation (crucial skills/abilities).

 

I'm tentatively classifying Lvl 4 and below as early game, since that corresponds to one decent match on Routine with a fresh character. Lvl 5 - 9 is semi-arbitrarily mid game. Anything after Lvl 10 is late. These are just ballpark figures, so if you guys have reasons for changing them, voice your ideas.

 

I've started us off with a freebie.

 

 

EARLY BLOOMERS (Levels 1 - 4)

 

Keeper (1 - 2): Barrier w/ upgrade.

 

Katari (3 - 4): Mighty Blow and/or Pommel Strike.

Archer (3 - 5): Long Shot and/or Leaping Shot w/ upgrades.

 

 

MIDDLING MASSES (Levels 5 - 9)

 

Arcane Warrior (5 - 7): Fade Shield, Rejuvenating Barrier, Fade Cloak or Fade Step w/ Upgrade.

 

Elementalist (7 - 9): Fire Wall, Fire Mine, Firestorm, Death Siphon. OR: Barrier w/ upgrade, Strength of Spirits.

Reaver (8): Dragon Rage w/ upgrade, Rampage.

Necromancer (8 - 10): Walking Bomb w/ upgrade, Death Siphon, Unsullied Victim, Power of the Dead.

Hunter (8 - 10): Stealth, Full Draw, Knife in the Shadows. OR: Toxic Cloud w/ upgrade, Leaping Shot.

Assassin (9 - 10): I Was Never Here, First Blood, Cull the Herd. OR: Hidden Blades, Deathblow w/ upgrades.

 

 

LATECOMERS (Level 10 +)

 

Alchemist (10): Flank Attack, Shadow Strike w/ upgrades, I Was Never Here.

Templar (12): Wrath of Heaven, Spell Purge, Horn of Valor w/ upgrades. OR: Line in the Sand, Horn of Valor, Payback Strike w/ upgrades.

 

Legionnaire (12 - 18): Walking Fortress, War Cry w/ upgrades, Bear Mauls the Wolves, Flow of Battle. AND: To the Death w/ upgrade, Counterstrike.

[TormDK]

It depends on the build I would say, but for Templars somewhere around level 12 in both examples below.

 

For instance, Templar with their WoH/Purge can be gotten barebones at level 8 (If you go that route), and will have upgraded skills+upgraded horn by level 12 and so be "feature" complete.

 

If you build a Sentinel Templar with Line in the Sand, I'd argue that you need to be somewhere around level 12 before you bring enough to the table (You'd have line in the sand upgraded, upgraded horn and payback strike by then.

[Beerfish]

I have a rather foolish method to my promoting but it's the way I do it none the less.  I play each class alternately and level them all up in a constant fashion and then I only promote when I have them all at 20.  I'll probably deviate from this sooner than later as some classes I am simply not good on perilous at all.  (Katari)

[haxaw]

It depends on the build I would say, but for Templars somewhere around level 12 in both examples below.

 

For instance, Templar with their WoH/Purge can be gotten barebones at level 8 (If you go that route), and will have upgraded skills+upgraded horn by level 12 and so be "feature" complete.

 

If you build a Sentinel Templar with Line in the Sand, I'd argue that you need to be somewhere around level 12 before you bring enough to the table (You'd have line in the sand upgraded, upgraded horn and payback strike by then.

 

Makes sense, I'll put her in as 12.

[DrKilledbyDeath]

AW gets shield at level 2, can hold their own just fine after that.

 

Assassin, whatever level you get stealth after kill on.

 

Elementalist and necro, just need to get the HoK move.

[Stinja]

Katari is threatening viable at level 4:  mighty blow, pommel strike (charging bull obviously).

[poloboyz93]

Keeper achieves near her maximum output at level 9 for me, and necro at level 13

[Altruismo]

AW gets shield at level 2, can hold their own just fine after that.

 

 

AW "core" absolutely includes PotA.

The Lightsaber - while never great damage - does not synergise well with Fade Shield if you don't group mobs up.

[pepe5454]

I don't even take PotA half the time on AW.  Upgraded lightning, fade cloak, fed step and lightsaber on my bar.  So I would not say PotA is absolutely core.

[Dieb]

My Hunter starts "working" as intended at lvl 10, giving me Fallback Plan, Explosive Shot, Toxic Cloud+ and Leaping Shot.

 

I sometimes throw in Evade on Perilous, but it's very optional.

[UnearthlyCheese]

Nice idea!

Not the most experienced player, but here's what I've found so far. Feel free to correct me.

Lego - ready to start fulfilling his role at level 6 (upgraded Walking Fortress, Warcry). Fully online at level 10 (Bear Mauls the Wolves, Flow of Battle). Complete at level 14 (Counterstrike). Anything after that is a bonus.


Archer - guess it depends how you play him, but for me, he seems ready to go at level 4 (Archer's Lance, Leaping Shot), maybe level 5 (Rolling Draw).


Assassin - can get I Was Never Here at level 5 if you go straight for it. I'm sure not everyone plays her the same, but that's the way I go about it. After that, I go for Knife In The Shadows at level 7. She feels complete at level 10 (upgraded Stealth, Hidden Blades)


Keeper - technically, she can be useful at level 1, but is very vulnerable when Barrier is down (Threatening/Perilous). Level 2, with upgraded Barrier seems a little safer....but that's a really strange level to end up at. The way I build my Keeper, I feel comfortable at level 5 (upgraded Barrier, Frost Step, Clean Burn); fully settled at level 8 (Guardian Spirit). I complete the build at level 12 with Improved Static Cage. All the passives after that are icing on the cake.

[Altruismo]

I don't even take PotA half the time on AW.  Upgraded lightning, fade cloak, fed step and lightsaber on my bar.  So I would not say PotA is absolutely core.

 

If that's fun for you, cool. But if you were in my group in perilous as an AW without PotA, I'd wonder what you think you're meant to be doing... damage?

My point was more in thinking the minimum level you could contribute to a team in Perilous; with an AW I think PotA because it makes life easier for everyone, and you don't even need top tier gear to make a useful contribution with it.

Perhaps the OP isn't thinking in terms of perilous?

[Drasca]

Some classes are have early, mid and high prior to max, plateaus. I've already listed my core builds & stages in my build list. That being said, I've been playing Katari so much in perilous recently he does just fine with Charge + B&S at level one.

 

Gear &  skill is a pre-requisite to the difficulty settings. Without either, you're borked regardless of level.  How many promotes before you feel like pwning is completely another matter.

[pepe5454]

If that's fun for you, cool. But if you were in my group in perilous as an AW without PotA, I'd wonder what you think you're meant to be doing... damage?

My point was more in thinking the minimum level you could contribute to a team in Perilous; with an AW I think PotA because it makes life easier for everyone, and you don't even need top tier gear to make a useful contribution with it.

Perhaps the OP isn't thinking in terms of perilous?

Heh it's an AW wondering what the rest of the party is really there for as he does not need them on perilous.  PotA can be handy but it is not necessary.  AW can act like a tank and still put out a ton of damage.

[SofaJockey]

I have a rather foolish method to my promoting but it's the way I do it none the less.  I play each class alternately and level them all up in a constant fashion and then I only promote when I have them all at 20.  I'll probably deviate from this sooner than later as some classes I am simply not good on perilous at all.  (Katari)

 

That's pretty pedantic ...

(and it's what I do)

 

I don't have to do them in specific order,

and if I'm enjoying a class with a group, I'll keep going, but I'll catch the others up later.

 

My 12 characters are levels 19 and 20, so a promotion round is fast approaching.

[haxaw]

I've updated the list with what has been presented, though I've put question marks next to some of the ones I think need a bit more discussion.

 

I reworded the question a bit to: "For this class, at what level do you feel you are able to achieve the main goal your build is meant to do?" In other words, it's not just a matter of "no longer being a burden" or "being able to survive", but of actually reaching some sort of contribution plateau (doesn't mean contribution won't continue to increase with more levels, but after the Core Level, any additional increase should be marginal).

 

So, for example, if you play your Legionnaire to 1) draw aggro and 2) survive the onslaught, then your "core" build should contain the minimal set of tools to achieve this. I've been listing ranges of levels, as well as considerations for alternate builds, so it's totally fine to propose builds for different purposes.

 

I like the discussion on AW. For builds rushing PotA, do you feel that is sufficient as your core contribution? As to having AW ready at level 2, I've only really played Perilous, and I don't think just having Fade Shield is quite enough to allow tanking/godmoding. Is level 2 all you really need on Threatening and below?

 

Speaking of difficulties, while I personally have been focused on Perilous, there's no reason why this list shouldn't consider across other difficulties as well, though with the new way I phrased the question, the difficulty probably won't matter so much. I'd like to focus more on the skill trees, ability points available, and impact on team rather than gear considerations.

 

Great responses, folks, keep 'em coming!

[Altruismo]

  AW can act like a tank and still put out a ton of damage.

This is such a wierd myth, and I have no idea why so many people are so hung up on it.

A Legionnaire can tank and still put out a ton of damage.

 

I'll list the classes that do less damage than an AW:

 

Keeper.

 

The list is finished.

[pepe5454]

For me on Necromancer I go straight for upgraded walking bomb then go to death siphon so 7 or 8 to get your main skill really but then I also want to go all the way down the other tree for either ice mine or blizzard with ice armor so just when you get the skills you want to use you are almost ready to promote her again.  Necro is my favorite to play though.

[pepe5454]

This is such a wierd myth, and I have no idea why so many people are so hung up on it.

A Legionnaire can tank and still put out a ton of damage.

 

I'll list the classes that do less damage than an AW:

 

Keeper.

 

The list is finished.

 

Depends on the group I guess and  what you face.  Demons the AW will put out more than against Venatori or red templars as they don't do crazy amounts of blocking.  I have topped the charts plenty of times on AW but I have no idea what gear the other party members had and I use the upgraded fade cloak allot on groups.  I do way more damage on Necro or archer/hunter I could on assassin but I think I would be reckless and run the chance of doing less due to death same with reaver they put out tons but also have to be careful where the AW you throw down some lightning and wade in and just do consistent damage not having to worry about LoS and flanking etc don't underestimate upgraded fade cloak on large groups.  No doubt if other classes didn't have to worry about such (keeper baby sitter)they will top the AW pretty easy.  I have tried using veil strike instead of fade step to it works ok puts lots of stuff to sleep but the cool down seems a bit to long but it works ok.

[Altruismo]

Depends on the group I guess and  what you face.  Demons the AW will put out more than against Venatori or red templars as they don't do crazy amounts of blocking.  I have topped the charts plenty of times on AW but I have no idea what gear the other party members had and I use the upgraded fade cloak allot on groups.  I do way more damage on Necro or archer/hunter I could on assassin but I think I would be reckless and run the chance of doing less due to death same with reaver they put out tons but also have to be careful where the AW you throw down some lightning and wade in and just do consistent damage not having to worry about LoS and flanking etc don't underestimate upgraded fade cloak on large groups.  No doubt if other classes didn't have to worry about such (keeper baby sitter)they will top the AW pretty easy.  I have tried using veil strike instead of fade step to it works ok puts lots of stuff to sleep but the cool down seems a bit to long but it works ok.

Look, I'm not trying to contend for a second that AW's don't have awesome survivability. They do.

But really, the damage isn't high, people seem convinced it is, because "I kill them before they kill me" or something.. I don't know.

But the build you presented:

You could literally build a Keeper with the same build as you mentioned , except Barrier instead of the Lightsaber and then do only a little less damage than your AW, and be able to barrier the whole team. Without PotA you're also relying on a 5% proc, or someone else, to get +15% damage vs weakened from Twisting Veil.

[pepe5454]

With or without PotA AW is nice to have when you want to do perilous but keep getting put in a lobby alone.  You can start a game and if more people join that's fine if not that's fine to.

[Altruismo]

With or without PotA AW is nice to have when you want to do perilous but keep getting put in a lobby alone.  You can start a game and if more people join that's fine if not that's fine to.

I agree the AW is a good class. And like I said earlier, if the build is fun for you, cool. I imagine it's a lot more fun than a standard PotA based build where you just do pretty much the exact same thing every pull. I played around with PotA, Stonefist, and Veilstrike with Fadestep and it was pretty fun zipping around CCing everything for my team.

I currently run PotA, Veilstrike, Stonefist and CL and I play AW as ranged support for maximum CC/Kockdown/Weaken/Sleep, the damage certainly isn't negligable. But with a Reaver or Templar around, trying to compete with them for damage, when I could just put/lock everything in one place so they kill it quicker than I would even if I'd built for damage, it just doesn't make sense to me.

But I've derailed this thread enough.

[haxaw]

Realized expecting people to run lvl 1s through Threatening is a little unrealistic, so I've shifted the tiers a bit. Early tier is now after just a single Routine match (Lvl 4). Lvl 10+ is now late game, but it's somewhat arbitrary. So if someone has a good reason for another number, that'd be fine too.

 

So for each of your AW cases, what is the Core Level for you? And what skills are involved?

[Jeffry]

I personally would put AW at lvl 5 (fade shield, rejuvenating barrier, upgraded fade cloak).

[pepe5454]

I feel fine going straight for strength of spirits so 4 I feel better when I upgrade chain lightning and get guardian spirit after that upgrade sword everything else is just gravy after that.  Maybe some mana issues but you do fine solo at 7 or so.