61 réponses à ce sujet

[Boatzu]

Erm, sir? Technically that would make barriers useful, not OP.

You obviously don't know what "overpowered" is. barriers are absolute paper on perilous, Lmfao. Not only do barriers decay they are stripped in a matter of seconds anyways, then you're downed from mobs of enemies during cooldown time anyways, wow, they're OP huh? Lol, matter of fact, the closest they can get to "overpowered" is when you fully spec into them, otherwise you deal with a mean cooldown and decay rate, also a loss in strength, making it pretty much more paper than it already is, does this sound like an "overpowered" ability to you, no, like I said, it's not useless, it's a very USEFUL ability, that can help you and your team out, but Kenny, it's not overpowered, c'mon now lol.

To touch upon the revenant example, sure he would've taken you out without the barrier, that makes the skill overpowered now?

A barrier has more than 5-6x+ your max hp in strength with a good staff. That is an absurd amount of temporary health and you can use it from range, on multiple targets and with a moderate cd. Its pretty hard to argue that it doesn't need a tweak. I mean, just listen to yourself, if your party is that paper thin that they are getting downed in 1 hit or in 3 with barrier then they practically need to abuse barrier to complete a mission otherwise you would just be dieing in 1 hit all the time. If even barrier isn't saving you then maybe you just aren't ready for perilous yet.

[Drasca]

are out of mana for chain lightning due to too much spirit blade (I fade step for free barrier) or are being "blocked" spammed (I fade cloak for damage & knockdown.) Not saying PotA is bad but just that it relies on your team working off of it and you occasionally backing off and playing as a ranged mage,

 

the one-man-army spirit blade spammer I described here.

 

Spirit blade is terrible for all the reasons you listed above. Consider FC + PotA. That combo is extremely powerful, and does not require 'ranged mage' to function. Follow it up with SF/CL and another FC (if they're still standing), while having Static Charge + Combat clarity passives. Fun times.

[orskar]

Spirit blade is terrible for all the reasons you listed above. Consider FC + PotA. That combo is extremely powerful, and does not require 'ranged mage' to function. Follow it up with SF/CL and another FC (if they're still standing), while having Static Charge + Combat clarity passives. Fun times.

 

hm that is interesting actually.

 

most of my damage on melee guys in perilous is actually from fade cloak due to being too swarmed by blockers for spirit blade to get good hits in. fade step and chain lightning does most of the work on archers and such as I like putting them down fast and spirit blade on each one takes too long.

 

I would miss being able to face-tank the boss with endless spirit blade but then again the bosses are hard to get a sustained 1v1 going anyway so can probably be whittled down with fade cloak.

 

have played with the odd AW who combos PotA with fade cloak they seem to be doing great until they try and fight something that can't be sucked in.

 

that all said, does take a little longer to set it up like that. I'll give it a go on my next AW. can always switch spirit blade back in if I hate it with no huge loss, since after getting the basics in lvl 10 or so, it doesn't really matter too much what else you take.

[poloboyz93]

A barrier has more than 5-6x+ your max hp in strength with a good staff. That is an absurd amount of temporary health and you can use it from range, on multiple targets and with a moderate cd. Its pretty hard to argue that it doesn't need a tweak. I mean, just listen to yourself, if your party is that paper thin that they are getting downed in 1 hit or in 3 with barrier then they practically need to abuse barrier to complete a mission otherwise you would just be dieing in 1 hit all the time. If even barrier isn't saving you then maybe you just aren't ready for perilous yet.

Buddy anyone that knows me on ps4 knows I'm more than capable of playing perilous, matter of fact its really all I play, second on I never said barrier doesn't save anyone or have its uses you're off there.. it has its uses such as last minute saves and some extra defences but at doesn't stop it from being paper on perilous, can't wait for a platinum type mode to come out and see how the thoughts change.. anyways s what I SAID was its not overpowered, people are using the word too loosely, then again its a bioware forum, same kind of speculations happened in me3mp.

[haxaw]

Spirit blade is terrible for all the reasons you listed above. Consider FC + PotA. That combo is extremely powerful, and does not require 'ranged mage' to function. Follow it up with SF/CL and another FC (if they're still standing), while having Static Charge + Combat clarity passives. Fun times.

 

This has been my exact preferred build for AW for a long while: PotA, Chain Lightning, Stonefist, Fade Cloak. I've gotten a lot of (unconvincing) flak for it. Works like a charm, and I can solo up to the final stage on Perilous like a breeze. Considering this build isn't intended for soloing, and really boasts team support and CC as its strong suit, that says a lot about how powerful it is. Putting RTC to sleep mid-leap is always good for a laugh. Or four.

[Shadohz]

This has been my exact preferred build for AW for a long while: PotA, Chain Lightning, Stonefist, Fade Cloak. I've gotten a lot of (unconvincing) flak for it. Works like a charm, and I can solo up to the final stage on Perilous like a breeze. Considering this build isn't intended for soloing, and really boasts team support and CC as its strong suit, that says a lot about how powerful it is. Putting RTC to sleep mid-leap is always good for a laugh. Or four.

I've used that build before. Rock steady. Really great for disrupting adds.

[Altruismo]

Spirit blade is terrible for all the reasons you listed above. Consider FC + PotA. That combo is extremely powerful, and does not require 'ranged mage' to function. Follow it up with SF/CL and another FC (if they're still standing), while having Static Charge + Combat clarity passives. Fun times.

 

Not to mention that a Legionnaire or Templar with Caliban and no damage buffs swings for about 90% of the damage of spirit blade per hit on a normal attack (compared to an AW with an equally top-tier staff), they have skills and passives and can get shields that increase that damage, and they can animation cancel to swing more than twice as fast as spirit blade does. Short version, left click from a Templar does more damage than spirit blade.

 

There is this disturbing trend on this forum for people to be sharing this AW build that is CL,Fadestep,Fadecloak, and Spirit blade.

 

Guys, you've built a "dps" Keeper with a level 1 Templar/Legionnaire Autoattack instead of Barrier. It's not a DPS build, you can't even weaken things properly to get your 15% passive damage buff.

 

AWs are good because they effectively have a permanent 30% heal on hit, not because their damage is good.

 

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

[DrKilledbyDeath]

Not to mention that a Legionnaire or Templar with Caliban and no damage buffs swings for about 90% of the damage of spirit blade per hit on a normal attack (compared to an AW with an equally top-tier staff), they have skills and passives and can get shields that increase that damage, and they can animation cancel to swing more than twice as fast as spirit blade does. Short version, left click from a Templar does more damage than spirit blade.

 

There is this disturbing trend on this forum for people to be sharing this AW build that is CL,Fadestep,Fadecloak, and Spirit blade.

 

Guys, you've built a "dps" Keeper with a level 1 Templar/Legionnaire Autoattack instead of Barrier. It's not a DPS build, you can't even weaken things properly to get your 15% passive damage buff.

 

AWs are good because they effectively have a permanent 30% heal on hit, not because their damage is good.

 

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

You make it sound like they do crap for damage. I'd like to see an equally geared/promoted lego or templar out dps my AW.

[Altruismo]

You make it sound like they do crap for damage. I'd like to see an equally geared/promoted lego or templar out dps my AW.

 

You could make a Keeper with the exact build as yours, but static cage instead of Spirit blade, and you will then out DPS your AW.

 

A Templar can out DPS a Keeper, right?

 

Think about it.

[haxaw]

You make it sound like they do crap for damage. I'd like to see an equally geared/promoted lego or templar out dps my AW.

 

I've attempted to make a similar point before. See here and the subsequent discussion if you're interested.
 

We weren't able to convince each other there, and this is unlikely to be any different. Both sides of the argument are laid out in all their gory details in that thread I linked. Whichever way you believe, no real need to rehash that here.

[Altruismo]

I've attempted to make a similar point before. See here and the subsequent discussion if you're interested.
 

We weren't able to convince each other there, and this is unlikely to be any different. Both sides of the argument are laid out in all their gory details in that thread I linked. Whichever way you believe, no real need to rehash that here.

 

Look, a different tack, are you going to tell me a Keeper with CL/Fadestep/Fadecloak/Static cage won't do more damage than an AW with CL/Fadestep/Fadecloak/Spirit Blade?

Then explain to me how the AW is doing more damage.

Then explain to me why you think keepers do great DPS.

[Jkregers]

Buddy anyone that knows me on ps4 knows I'm more than capable of playing perilous, matter of fact its really all I play, second on I never said barrier doesn't save anyone or have its uses you're off there.. it has its uses such as last minute saves and some extra defences but at doesn't stop it from being paper on perilous, can't wait for a platinum type mode to come out and see how the thoughts change.. anyways s what I SAID was its not overpowered, people are using the word too loosely, then again its a bioware forum, same kind of speculations happened in me3mp.

I'm using it too loosely? I've only used that word to describe one skill. Okay, if it is not overpowered, then it's just the single best ability in the game by far. Its use can carry a normally mediocre team to an easy win on its own. Having only one barrier caster significantly decreases the difficulty of a match.

 

Unless a guide writer was being stubborn, every single strategy for every boss would probably have "make sure to bring that barrier" written in it.  

Barrier is the Orlandu of Final Fantasy Tactics. It makes the game much easier than was hopefully intended. 

 

Overpowered or not, I would like to see more emphasis on guard based protection of a party. 

[DrKilledbyDeath]

 

You could make a Keeper with the exact build as yours, but static cage instead of Spirit blade, and you will then out DPS your AW.

 

A Templar can out DPS a Keeper, right?

 

Think about it.

That's an awful arguement.

 

Scissors beats paper, and rock beats scissors so rock should beat pa..... wait that's not how it works.

 

Besides a keeper with no barrier is going to be dead and gone while my AW is still going strong

[haxaw]

You're once again confounding things. I'll try to be clear and precise.

 

Look, a different tack, are you going to tell me a Keeper with CL/Fadestep/Fadecloak/Static cage won't do more damage than an AW with CL/Fadestep/Fadecloak/Spirit Blade?

 

Okay...I don't see how this has to do with anything, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. My answer is no, that AW probably won't out-DPS that Keeper, special circumstances aside.

 

 

Then explain to me how the AW is doing more damage.

 

But, but, but, I just conceded that the Keeper in your scenario is doing more damage...why do I have to disagree with myself all of a sudden?

 

 

Then explain to me why you think keepers do great DPS.

 

Wow. The leap in logic here is...publishable. Throwing aside the false assumption that I would say the Keeper > AW in the scenario you presented, we're still left with the equally faulty premise that anyone here thinks "keepers do great DPS". I can't even come up with a rebuttal because your attempt to ridicule others argues points that nobody else is trying to argue...

 

I have not, nor did I ever in that post I linked, advocate anything with Spirit Blade in there. I also very neatly (in my opinion) broke down exactly what my AW build brings to the table, and I quote, "shock, stun, sleep, pull, weaken, damage increase, enemy damage decrease" along with respectable DPS. In that other discussion, you then proceeded to claim Reaver overall DPS would "wipe the floor" with my AW DPS, which I contended. Don't try to twist it into saying I'm claiming AW is OMGopTOPDEEPS. Because I never have. You also insisted on scenarios convenient for your position, like assuming the Reaver will always have PotA or Static Cage cast for her, and ignoring matters of survivability. Dead DPS = no DPS. DPS hiding, kiting, or otherwise dodging attacks by running around = no DPS.

 

The same is happening again here.

 

 

AWs are good because they effectively have a permanent 30% heal on hit, not because their damage is good.

 

Do you see the contradiction in your statement? If the damage were as terrible (worse than Keepers) as you say, then what good would the 30% "lifesteal" be?

 

 

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

 

If the shoe fits. You said it, not me.

[Altruismo]

That's an awful arguement.

 

Scissors beats paper, and rock beats scissors so rock should beat pa..... wait that's not how it works.

 

Besides a keeper with no barrier is going to be dead and gone while my AW is still going strong

 

No, it's not an argument at all, I'm trying to get you to look at the damage of this AW build in relation to the damage that other classes do.

A keeper without barrier would be as acceptable as any other DPS class in a group if the damage was worth it, but it's not.

How do you make this magical leap from knowing that a Keeper with minimal support abilities, and better DPS than your AW build is unacceptable because the damage isn't good enough, to thinking you AW build is valuable because it does a lot of damage?

It's OK for an AW to do that damage because they can't cast barrier?

Or because an AW is personally able to survive and grind everything down, and everyone else is along to speed up your solo runs?

[DrKilledbyDeath]

 

No, it's not an argument at all, I'm trying to get you to look at the damage of this AW build in relation to the damage that other classes do.

A keeper without barrier would be as acceptable as any other DPS class in a group if the damage was worth it, but it's not.

How do you make this magical leap from knowing that a Keeper with minimal support abilities, and better DPS than your AW build is unacceptable because the damage isn't good enough, to thinking you AW build is valuable because it does a lot of damage?

It's OK for an AW to do that damage because they can't cast barrier?

Or because an AW is personally able to survive and grind everything down, and everyone else is along to speed up your solo runs?

The last part.

[MaxCrushmore]

Arcane Warrior

 

Elementalist

 

Keeper

 

Archer

 

Reaver

 

Not necessarily in that order, and if you have a good Templar and are playing Perilous demons, then the Templar is also easily a top 5 kit

[Altruismo]

Do you see the contradiction in your statement? If the damage were as terrible (worse than Keepers) as you say, then what good would the 30% "lifesteal" be?

 

 

It's not a contradiction at all. When the average Perilous monster has ~3500 health and a pretty well geared and promoted AW has around 1200 health you're fully healing yourself with every kill. Doing enough damage for 30% lifesteal to be good doesn't preclude the possibility that other classes can do more damage.

And to be clear, I don't contend that AWs damage is worse than Keepers. I do say that with sufficient gear and promotion, a Keeper is the only class that does less damage than an AW. And in the context of this thread, I'm specifically addressing the CL/FS/FC/SB build that seems to have risen to prominence as an AW "DPS" build on the forums.

 

But a weird thing to me is that most experienced AW players recognise that Spirit Blade is not a great source of damage, and they drop it from their builds.

But then where is all the extra damage meant to come from? Really, I'd love to know.

The +15% from Twisted Veil?

From Fade Cloak which still requires them to get into melee range anyway and only does as much AoE damage as two swings from Spirit Blade?

From Stonefist, and granted it's from range and a good AoE, but it only does as much damage as one swing from Spirit Blade?

 

As an aside, I accept that Spirit Blade is actually a really awesome skill when soloing, when you're mobbed it's basically an AWs highest sustained damage source.

[DrKilledbyDeath]

As an aside, I accept that Spirit Blade is actually a really awesome skill when soloing, when you're mobbed it's basically an AWs highest sustained damage source.

Keep in mind some people almost always play with pugs. The people I will be in games with are usually under geared under skilled people. I build my characters to maximize my own survivability. FC and FS are 2 get out of jail free cards.

[Altruismo]

Keep in mind some people almost always play with pugs. The people I will be in games with are usually under geared under skilled people. I build my characters to maximize my own survivability. FC and FS are 2 get out of jail free cards.

I'm not criticising the survivability, or even the fun-factor of the build. I'm not even trying to suggest that the build isn't viable, especially for soloing.

It's just I see a lot of people going "the damage is awesome" when talking about that build and I'm like - "you're a keeper with spirit blade, dude - the damage isn't awesome".

[DrKilledbyDeath]

I'm not criticising the survivability, or even the fun-factor of the build. I'm not even trying to suggest that the build isn't viable, especially for soloing.

It's just I see a lot of people going "the damage is awesome" when talking about that build and I'm like - "you're a keeper with spirit blade, dude - the damage isn't awesome".

I know the score at the end is not a good indicator since it involves more than just damage, but mine is always way way way higher than anyone else on my AW. That is what I base it off, can't argue with results.

[TheSpookyAce]

Wait people are bashing spirit blade now? I get that build variety is what keeps playing the game interesting and the build without the spirit blade suggested above sounds really awesome. But spirit blade is no way a terrible skill imo.

[haxaw]

It's not a contradiction at all. When the average Perilous monster has ~3500 health and a pretty well geared and promoted AW has around 1200 health you're fully healing yourself with every kill. Doing enough damage for 30% lifesteal to be good doesn't preclude the possibility that other classes can do more damage.

 

This is true, and a good point.

 

 

But then where is all the extra damage meant to come from? Really, I'd love to know.

 

I've gone into depth regarding sustained damage in the other post comparing AW to Reavers, but I'll condense it here.

 

AW spells (Chain Lightning, Stonefist) deal good damage, have low cooldown made lower by Gathering Storm, and can be spammed safely from range. The AW build I'm referencing doesn't need to walk up to mobs, and it doesn't need to kite anything. This means I am able to sustain my DPS, whereas the other classes you are championing cannot. They need to navigate the battlefield, both to stay alive and to reach the next target.

 

The second major point is overkill damage. Virtually every bit of damage the AW spells throw out is "useful" in the sense that they are reducing something's health. CL is the absolute best example of this. Any overkill damage with CL is going to be just a fraction of 2/6 of the nominal damage it deals (assuming you kill 2 targets). The majority of the time all the damage will be contributing. You can't just look at the number that shows up or the bonus damage % listed on the skill and conclude that you will be contributing that much with every hit. That would only apply to tanky/boss enemies, but we're talking about the general case.

[Drasca]

But a weird thing to me is that most experienced AW players recognise that Spirit Blade is not a great source of damage, and they drop it from their builds.

But then where is all the extra damage meant to come from? Really, I'd love to know.

The +15% from Twisted Veil?

From Fade Cloak which still requires them to get into melee range anyway and only does as much AoE damage as two swings from Spirit Blade?

From Stonefist, and granted it's from range and a good AoE, but it only does as much damage as one swing from Spirit Blade?

 

As an aside, I accept that Spirit Blade is actually a really awesome skill when soloing, when you're mobbed it's basically an AWs highest sustained damage source.

 

Combo King build multiple passive, positioning and aoe interaction. Linked in my signature.

 

Initially there were angry demands I demonstrate my claim of 3x fade cloaks in 12 seconds. I later showed video, and there's only jealous snarky remarks afterward accepting proof it was done. You'll get about 4-5 SB swings in that time, or roughly 20x weapon damage. 3x fade cloaks is 30x alone, plus two-three spellcasts, and detonation damage, and all bypassing being blocked. SF actually does more damage than SB (5x + weaken vs 4x) -- both animations taking roughly equal time-- plus paralyze --> detonate from static charge.

 

In my teaser video, I don't play optimally, but I spam spells very very fast, each of which take about as much time to SB swing, and do more damage, while pulling all enemies into my position for FC (which has zero animation time to activate).

 

haxaw has explained gathering storm interaction. static charge, restorative veil, combat clarity and other weaken passives renew and enable the casting cycle of doom for mooks. There's a few more paragraphs (pages?) of explanation, but I haven't had the time for anything in-depth.

 

So ultimately, you do more damage per time because every spell does more damage per unit time than SB, and cast fade cloak on top of that (which does not cost time), AND pull everything into your position, setup primers and detonations.

 

Note: Usually enemies don't survive to the two fade cloak mark, let alone three.

 

people are bashing spirit blade now?

 

 

Primarily me, but I just read other people doing it too. It is OK, but there's so much better out there. It maybe be easy to use, and great for majority of button mashers, but I can easily prove verbally, mathematically, and through video demonstration how much faster & stronger not using SB is.

[Drasca]

I also very neatly (in my opinion) broke down exactly what my AW build brings to the table, and I quote, "shock, stun, sleep, pull, weaken, damage increase, enemy damage decrease" along with respectable DPS

 

Stun? Don't you mean knockdown (and stagger) Additionally, you need to add Static Charge (not cage) to your build so you gain paralyze and discharge combos for AoE Lightning at close casting range.