61 réponses à ce sujet

[haxaw]

Stun? Don't you mean knockdown (and stagger) Additionally, you need to add Static Charge (not cage) to your build so you gain paralyze and discharge combos for AoE Lightning at close casting range.

 

Yeah, I meant the stagger from Stonefist. I do run Static Charge in my build. The discharge is absurd, but definitely not a reliable thing you can bank on all the time. I wasn't about to mention something conditional that would have been taken, dissected, and hurled back at me as fodder (in the original thread).

[Drasca]

Yeah, I meant the stagger from Stonefist. I do run Static Charge in my build. The discharge is absurd, but definitely not a reliable thing you can bank on all the time. I wasn't about to mention something conditional that would have been taken, dissected, and hurled back at me as fodder (in the original thread).

 

FC stagger/kd as well, don't forget. Launching them in the air with decloaking blast is one of my favorite things to do.

 

Ah, all things are conditional.  but setting up the SC-->Paralyze-->Discharge condition is very reliable. I would not even want to count how many discharge combos I get in a game. Play at CQC range, PotA enemies. Or just cast SF at melee range. Very few enemies cannot be paralyzed. Let that be known to all.

[Altruismo]

AW spells (Chain Lightning, Stonefist) deal good damage.
 

 

Compared to what? Really.

Simply saying it doesn't make it true; Put it in context against other skills that can be used at least as often, or more often, from well geared characters.

 

Try comparing against Payback from a Legionnaire with Caliban and a Dwarven Proving shield, Flow of Battle and Walking Fortress for cooldown reduction. Don't forget about Blood Frenzy and Cutting Words.

Payback from a Templar with the same gear, Horn of Valor, Blessed blades with Lights in the Shadow, and Flow of Battle. For giggles, since you've got two powers, give the Templar a Dwarven Crusher and hit Spell Purge after Payback Strike.

At risk of sounding ridiculous to you, compare against a Reaver with Sulevin Blade, Rampage and Dragon Rage, with Scenting Blood + Coup de Gras opening with Mighty Blow then unloading.

An Archer, just being an Archer.

An Elementalist milking Flashpoint, Energy Barrage and Meteor (zero downtime).

A Keeper with Chain lightning and Fade Cloak (who can also have Twisted Veil, Static Charge, Conductive Current AND Clean Burn).

 

Most of those characters are also doing way more damage with auto-attacks between skills too, do I really have to make a full list, or are you still 100% convinced AW is somewhere near the top for damage?

 

Oh I forget, when AWs deal damage, they are non-stop spamming their abilities and hitting the maximum number of targets in neat little 5-man groups and nobody else ever gets to attack (they are.. running?) so their DPS is zero.

AWs never have a split pull with two mobs, then three more than run in one at a time - that's a problem that other classes have to deal with.

They never have a waves of mobs coming in 1-2 at a time at three different targets in 5/5, that's also a problem that only other classes have to deal with.

When AWs corner-pull, they can wait at the corner, other classes have to prepare themselves for a 10 second run-up.

When AWs break line of sight, they maintain line of sight for their own attacks.

I'm obviously being facetious here, but my point is you keep counter-arguing the damage output of other classes by saying they don't always get ideal conditions, or even that they are nearly always faced by conditions where they can't do damage at all, completely overlooking the fact that AWs also don't always get ideal conditions. Unless I'm playing with a couple of Beast Archers that I sometimes get the pleasure of following around or I'm way under-levelled, I don't ever find myself spending most of every fight doing zero damage regardless of my class - and certainly never because an AW is in the group.

 

Initially there were angry demands I demonstrate my claim of 3x fade cloaks in 12 seconds. I later showed video, and there's only jealous snarky remarks afterward accepting proof it was done. You'll get about 4-5 SB swings in that time, or roughly 20x weapon damage. 3x fade cloaks is 30x alone, plus two-three spellcasts, and detonation damage, and all bypassing being blocked. SF actually does more damage than SB (5x + weaken vs 4x) -- both animations taking roughly equal time-- plus paralyze --> detonate from static charge.

 

I have not seen the video, but the build seems fun.

Is that 12 seconds counting from the when you come out of the first Fadecloak? Because if not, I'm amazed you find the space for so much cooldown reduction while also slotting Stonefist + CL into the rotation. OR is it that Fadecloak can be cancelled before the 3 second mark, in which case you for real taught me something and blew my mind.

The 500% Spirit Blade was my legit mistake, it's 20% worse than I thought....

 

Very few enemies cannot be paralyzed. Let that be known to all

 

Or put to sleep

[haxaw]

Oh I forget, when AWs deal damage, they are non-stop spamming their abilities and hitting the maximum number of targets in neat little 5-man groups and nobody else ever gets to attack (they are.. running?) so their DPS is zero.

AWs never have a split pull with two mobs, then three more than run in one at a time - that's a problem that other classes have to deal with.

They never have a waves of mobs coming in 1-2 at a time at three different targets in 5/5, that's also a problem that only other classes have to deal with.

When AWs corner-pull, they can wait at the corner, other classes have to prepare themselves for a 10 second run-up.

When AWs break line of sight, they maintain line of sight for their own attacks.

I'm obviously being facetious here, but my point is you keep counter-arguing the damage output of other classes by saying they don't always get ideal conditions, or even that they are nearly always faced by conditions where they can't do damage at all, completely overlooking the fact that AWs also don't always get ideal conditions.

 

It seems to me you're seriously underestimating the survivability aspect of the AW, which is it's greatest strength.

 

Corner pulling and breaking LoS are big time sinks. AW doesn't need to do these things, because of its defense-through-offense gimmick. Mobs are spread out? That's what PotA is for. Mobs streaming in? CL and Stonefist really don't care. I think I've addressed all your scenarios. I'm really not idealizing here. The situations you describe are practical, as are the actions I take in each of them.

 

Honestly, the time that I am either staffing or cycling through my skills is very very very nearly 100%.

 

 

Unless I'm playing with a couple of Beast Archers that I sometimes get the pleasure of following around or I'm way under-levelled, I don't ever find myself spending most of every fight doing zero damage regardless of my class - and certainly never because an AW is in the group.

 

The time spent doing zero damage is significant, whereas it's insignificant in my AW rotation.

 

As a side note, you seemed to imply this in the Reaver discussion, as well: A DPS comparison isn't having the two competing in the same team and seeing who gets more kills. Since we're choosing between the two, the actual scenario is replacing one with the other in any given situation.

[orskar]

Keep in mind some people almost always play with pugs. The people I will be in games with are usually under geared under skilled people. I build my characters to maximize my own survivability. FC and FS are 2 get out of jail free cards.

 

 

This is pretty much the same for me. I play my AW as more of an un-killable annoyance and it'll either be that the rest of team are geared well and get the kills on everything aggro'ed to me or I just take my time slowly killing everything. The only other class who can survive tanking on a whole mob is legionnaire and that's only if you are spamming walking fortress.  The aoe swing of spirit blade is basically like being a 2-hander that doesn't have to worry about taking damage, so can swing away forever.

 

Generally, the only way my AW is getting more dps than the rest of the room is by just being first to every fight, similar to legionnaire but with more kills at the end due to stronger attacks. Due to how flimsy guard is, tanking as AW is a lot easier than tanking as legionnaire.

 

It is boring to play AW like that but I tend to only play AW when I'm annoyed and want to stomp a room to completion regardless of how bad the pug is, so would rather have an invincible solo set-up.

 

The more aoe/cc/support/etc set-ups of AW are nicer in essence but I always feel I'd be better off playing some other mage at that point.

[Drasca]

 have not seen the video, but the build seems fun.

Is that 12 seconds counting from the when you come out of the first Fadecloak? Because if not, I'm amazed you find the space for so much cooldown reduction while also slotting Stonefist + CL into the rotation. OR is it that Fadecloak can be cancelled before the 3 second mark, in which case you for real taught me something and blew my mind.

The 500% Spirit Blade was my legit mistake, it's 20% worse than I thought....

 

4x weapon spirit damage in an AoE, multiplied by bonus damage 2x bonus vs barrier and 4x bonus vs guard. Don't forget spirit bypasses enemy armor, and multiple enemies take 2x damage to spirit. Spells are still better mind you, but spirit blade spam is useable nub blade for everyone because it does work and do acceptable damage for low cost (and no thought/skill).

 

FC has a 2s Decloak delay, not 3s.

 

My Combo king build just about does everything using less time and more exp than other builds.

 

 

 

I am not playing optimally here. I have since learned to do better*, but the videos aren't bad for a simple demonstration that the build works. I wasn't exaggerating when I claimed 3x FC in 12s, but I did stretch the truth a bit. It is technically correct, 3x FC within the span of 12s, just not counting when I begin or end FC. In the first video FC1 ends at 8s, FC3 begins at 20s. If you count the time to start the FC1, it'd be 14s, and from start of FC1 to end of FC3 would be 16s, but there's technically 3x FC in 12s counting from the end of FC1 to beginning of FC3. All technical jargon, but the end result is the same: Demonstrating killing very fast, and shutting up claims that "I can't do that".

 

Note, I did not intend to play solo when I made the video, it just so happened that no one was online and I had a little time on my hands, so a solo video demonstration occurred.

 

*I look at that video now and I would've so gotten closer to the enemy and FC --> PotA grabbing all the enemies. Everything would be dead except maybe a fringe archer within the first 20 seconds (probably 12s) because I would've prioritized discharge combos and pulled more enemies together at once.

 

 

Corner pulling and breaking LoS are big time sinks.

 

They're not, especially if you run ahead and do it while your allies are busy mopping up minor add mobs ( I like pulling group 2 and 3 while the team is busy with group 1 on a zone). I LoS while in the middle of mobs now too. It'd be stupid not to take advantage of cover and aggro manipulation tools available to me.

 

Having the entire team wait is a time sink, but how pulls are done are not inherently a time sink. Last night while you were on reaver, you showed up at just the right time for a group 3 pull to be around the corner on a Tevinter map. Ideally the timing is correct that the rest of the team shows up in the right time and position.

 

Does it take skill to pull off minimized time loss? Maybe, but it is worth doing.

 

Granted, we may have been too distracted laughing and cracking jokes the entire time for you to notice, but that's what MP is about for me.

[Altruismo]

4x weapon spirit damage in an AoE, multiplied by bonus damage 2x bonus vs barrier and 4x bonus vs guard. Don't forget spirit bypasses enemy armor, and multiple enemies take 2x damage to spirit. Spells are still better mind you, but spirit blade spam is useable nub blade for everyone because it does work and do acceptable damage for low cost (and no thought/skill).

 

 

The biggest problem I have with spirit blade is that it's damage is actually comparable, or worse, than the Autoattack of some other classes. When I see AWs who want to build their peak damage output to be the base from which other classes build up. I just shake my head and think, "that's really not worth 1/4 of your skill slots".

Armor values for mobs are quite low, and once you start animation cancelling and talking in terms of top tier equipment, the gap between the spirit damage of SB and just swinging Caliban, or Sulevin blade doesn't just close, it opens up in the other direction, and then promotions just further the gap. When other classes are packing weapons that sit at 350-450+% the damage of staves, can swing them a lot faster than spirit blade and still hit in an AoE, ~50 or less armor to contend with starts to seem pretty insignificant.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything here, I'm just explaining why I'm not into Spirit Blade.

I 100% accept that it works, and synergises well with Fade shield and PotA, I just say that it doesn't do "good" damage in the context of what other classes are capable of.

 

FC has a 2s Decloak delay, not 3s.

 

I am not playing optimally here. I have since learned to do better*, but the videos aren't bad for a simple demonstration that the build works. I wasn't exaggerating when I claimed 3x FC in 12s, but I did stretch the truth a bit. It is technically correct, 3x FC within the span of 12s, just not counting when I begin or end FC. In the first video FC1 ends at 8s, FC3 begins at 20s. If you count the time to start the FC1, it'd be 14s, and from start of FC1 to end of FC3 would be 16s, but there's technically 3x FC in 12s counting from the end of FC1 to beginning of FC3. All technical jargon, but the end result is the same: Demonstrating killing very fast, and shutting up claims that "I can't do that".

 

Note, I did not intend to play solo when I made the video, it just so happened that no one was online and I had a little time on my hands, so a solo video demonstration occurred.

 

*I look at that video now and I would've so gotten closer to the enemy and FC --> PotA grabbing all the enemies. Everything would be dead except maybe a fringe archer within the first 20 seconds (probably 12s) because I would've prioritized discharge combos and pulled more enemies together at once.

 

All good on the delay, I should remember it's 2s because I always remember the tooltip for FC and fadestep both say 2s, and I'm always thinking, "no way was that 2s" for Fadestep.

Regardless, it seems like you're talking about a cycle where Fade Cloak is dealing it's damage once every 6 seconds, which is a really impressive reduction, as opposed to what would be once every 5 seconds if you started that clock when you cast the first fadestep. (when I was thinking the delay was 3s, that would have been once every ~4 seconds - mind. blown. )

I watched the Videos, it looks like you clear a "trash mob" pull in about 13 seconds, which is about 2 seconds better than I'd expect an AW to do it with a fadestep build, and that was with mis-timing your first fadecloak in the teaser video, nice!

The Brute and the single Stalker really slowed things down for you, which is what I talk about when I say AWs don't always get ideal conditions, and their single target damage is pretty... bad. You also demonstrate pretty clearly that even AWs need HoK, but don't let the masses know that; AWs are OP rite?

 

 

Having the entire team wait is a time sink, but how pulls are done are not inherently a time sink. Last night while you were on reaver, you showed up at just the right time for a group 3 pull to be around the corner on a Tevinter map. Ideally the timing is correct that the rest of the team shows up in the right time and position.

 

 

I'm assuming this means that you and Haxaw play/have played together.

Did he notice that:

1) His Reaver was able to get into combat and deal heaps of damage even though your AW was there?

2) Sometimes you AW was walking instead of dealing "100% damage output"

[Drasca]

The biggest problem I have with spirit blade is ...

 

Mine is that every noob worships spirit blade without any thought. Part of the whole 'good enough', don't want to change problem humanity has built into its thinking, and surpassing that requires effort.

 

You don't need to sell me on why SB sucks. You're preaching to the choir, and one of the main vocal opponents to SB. I only played devil's advocate above for technical truth's sake.

 

 

even AWs need HoK,

 

I personally don't use HoK anymore on my AW, but I admit I personally am OP. I cannot make the same recommendation to others. unless they have zero surviveability issues.

 

 

The Brute and the single Stalker really slowed things down for you

 

Yeah, I wouldn't make the same mistake anymore. That said, I'm not interested in Solo videos, and it was not meant to be solo. If I were in a team environment, everything would be mopped up in about half the time (10s or less), and SB would've been a total waste of time.

 

I'm less interested in solo comparisons when team balance / whole picture approach is more important. The MP game is not designed around solo, so why would the devs balance around that?

 

With my reaver, I can burst for as much as about 4k per swing, generally raging for 2k, but it is much less consistent damage and survive-ability. I prefer my Katari. Mobility, Consistent Damage, Burst damage, and death-dealing living on the edge factor. He truly exemplifies his name, Deathbringer.

 

 

Fade Cloak is dealing it's damage once every 6 seconds

that would have been once every ~4 seconds - mind. blown.

 

It actually scales to how many enemies are around me. If you pay attention closely to the videos, fade cloak can be set-off as short as 4s apart. I give a conservative safe estimate expecting it every 6 seconds, but the burst can actually be better than that. That said, I am to the point where even FC2 is not necessary, let alone FC3+.

 

If gear is not as good, or skill is not as good, the AW will perform worse--- but that is true for all kits. Just a matter of how much so.

 

 

AW to do it with a fadestep build

 

FS build would be choked by SB being blocked. The Venatori footsoldiers have bucklers / blocking abilities, and the Brutes would KD. The static charge / SF cast / paralyze / sleep bypasses and prevents those situations from occurring.

 

FS off-host is also subject to severe rubberbanding into the wrong position, further delaying the kill time.

 

Consistency matters.

 

 

I'm assuming this means that you and Haxaw play/have played together.

Did he notice that

 

Once, but the answer is probably no... for the reasons listed above: We were busy cracking jokes and laughing with the whole party. Who says DAMP has to be serious all the time? The party was seriously pulling each other's leg the entire game.

 

Players occasionally died, but again, that did not matter because we were clearing fast and making fun of each other. It may sound like evading the question, but that's what happened. Too busy having fun to worry about other stuff.

[Altruismo]

I'm less interested in solo comparisons when team balance / whole picture approach is more important. The MP game is not designed around solo, so why would the devs balance around that?

 

As am I, which is why I'm not on-board for the whole "AWs are OP because... survivability!!". In 4 player team geared/promoted to finish Perilous, regardless of which classes are in it, finishing 5/5 proves they all have enough "survivability".

 

 

FS build would be choked by SB being blocked. The Venatori footsoldiers have bucklers / blocking abilities, and the Brutes would KD. The static charge / SF cast / paralyze / sleep bypasses and prevents those situations from occurring.

 

Disregard my use of the word "Fadestep". I meant Fade Cloak. (there's no way I'd expect a fadestep/spirit blade build to come within 2 seconds of the time it takes you to clear a trash pull).

[McPartyson]

Do Top 5 Worst

[haxaw]

I'm assuming this means that you and Haxaw play/have played together.

Did he notice that:

1) His Reaver was able to get into combat and deal heaps of damage even though your AW was there?

2) Sometimes you AW was walking instead of dealing "100% damage output"

 

We had Barrier on me, as well as PotA. These are huge boons, but I've addressed this many times already.Even with this near-ideal support, I had to LoS on occasion to stay alive, and chasing down scattering panicked mobs will always be a DPS-detractor. If anything, this example you're attempting to champion supports what I've been saying all along.