382 réponses à ce sujet

[Matthias King]

but denying it is closing your eyes to the world for the sake of your own values.

 

I'm surprised it needs to be stated again, but this part that I trimmed out shows that people are still missing the point entirely.  Nudity and sexuality are about as far from being 'against my values' as anything could possibly get.

 

Everyone could run around the ship buck naked for all I care.  It wouldn't make much sense and I imagine the characters would probably get cold that way, but that's not the point of this discussion at all.

 

The one and only thing people in this thread have against the 'sexy' outfits is that they are laughably out of place on the battlefield.  They are wearing catsuits or sometimes next to nothing in toxic environments and in all-out firefights.  That and the fact that they are wearing non-sealed suits and breather masks on those same toxic environments and in some cases, places with zero breathable atmosphere and probably sub-zero temperatures.  All for the sake of cheap sexuality aimed squarely at 13 year old boys.

 

I'm an adult and I have absolutely zero problem with adult themes, nudity, and sexuality.  It's ALL about context. 

 

CONTEXT.  Does it make sense in the given situation?

 

Should they be naked during sex scenes?  Yes, they absolutely should.  Do I have a problem with sex scenes in games?  Absolutely not, especially when they actually mean something to the story and aren't gratuitously thrown in for no reason. 

 

Should characters be dressed in non-combat uniforms or casual clothing aboard the ship?  Absolutely.  Should that clothing reflect their personality?  Absolutely.  Should some of those characters express their sexuality and push the boundaries with their casual dress?  If that fits the character then absolutely.

 

Should characters be running around a Tuchanka or Luna battlefield half naked or in pajamas?  Absolutely not.  It just makes no damn sense whatsoever.

[saladinbob]

It depends upon the character. Whilst Samara was a bit OTT, my guess is they where going for someone who exudes power. I think the one inspiration for her was Commandant Grayza from Farscape who was a similar character (in terms of authority) and wore a similar outfit (in terms of cleavage).

 

With EDI I think there may have been an element of tongue in cheek about that because if you take her on the mission to Grayson Academy, you hear Jack refer to her as a 'Sex Bot' which is precisely what she looked like. You also have Shepard replying "On that we can agree" to a reference by EDI about Joker wanting to 'see her new body'. Still, I think it would have been better if she'd kept the skin.

 

For Miranda, her body was perfect for her background. She was meant to be perfect. Perfect figure, perfect body, perfect genes. She was also meant to be a femme fatal of ME2 so her costume reflected that. She was also an Operative, not a Soldier so wearing armour really wasn't in-keeping with the character's background.

 

With Miranda gone as a companion for ME3, my guess is the design team wanted a replacement for that femme fatal character and chose Ashely. 

 

For the others, an explanation is given in 'The art of ME3' you get with the digital deluxe version. For Jack, she's anti-establishment, he wearing a belt to cover her breasts is her way of sticking it to the man. For ME3 she wasn't originally meant to be a teacher at the Academy but was meant to have matured somewhat but still maintain that rebel attitude that made the character interesting for many. Kaiden was bulked up to reflect the fact he'd seen a lot of action of the last three and half years. You'll note that both Kaiden and Ashley have the same default armour. In fact, all female companions in ME3 have a full armour outfit so it's entirely a personal choice whether to select the 'sexed up' outfits. As with all choice, if you don't like it, don't choose it.

 

Finally, for James Vega, it states they wanted a 'blue collar tank of a man', someone who would (in the case he was alive) be in stark contrast to Kaiden who is more clean cut. This makes perfect sense because to do otherwise would be to simply clone Kaiden. Although it's never stated (as far as I can remember), you can guess that Kaiden came through the officer's Academy, Vega through the ranks. It created much needed diversity within the Alliance officer core.

[Rivverrabbit]

I haven't read the entire topic yet (please forgive me, fellas!), but I just wanted to drop a thought. But first, some quick context: I agree that it always felt strange (read, a dumb sort of oversight) that people didn't wear proper spacesuits in space in the sequels. Exposed skin was odd, especially when that wasn't the case in the first game (I remember really digging the detail that your helmets would close up whenever you went into hazardous environs).

That said, I generally prefer the art style and the unique personalities of the character designs and their outfits. I think they should always have the appropriate level of protection in a given environment by default: full coverage for space and hazards, whatever they feel like elsewhere. Exposed skin in the vacuum of space? Does not compute.

BUT HERE'S MY THOUGHT! And thank you for bearing with me to get here.

What if it was an option?

Like "hide helmet," what if, in this single-player RPG that really should reflect and fit our own personal viewpoints, we could choose to have armor be visible on our squadmates in missions? Since I think everybody generally agrees they like having customizable armor options for squadmates (even if the look and style must remain unique, the option to buy and change armor for your squad is also pretty important), why not let us choose whether it's visible or not? I mean, what's it matter how we like to play? Look at Skyrim mods; you can run around with anime-style sex dolls and nobody cares.

If it was an option, wouldn't it render the entire debate moot? Dry up the whole sticky quagmire?

ASIDE: I always really wanted the type of helmet to affect the HUD. Like, if you went in with no helmet (assuming you weren't in a hazardous environment), there would be no HUD, no crosshairs; if you grabbed the simple eye visor, you'd get the HUD. And full-fledged helmets would get you the HUD as well as protection bonuses.

In the same vein, it'd be great if this too was an option: hide HUD (always), hide HUD (with helmet), or no hide HUD.

[saladinbob]

What exactly would they be wearing if you hid their armour? It's easier just to copy ME3's multiple armour choices Some can be sexy, some can be utilitarian. The player can choose for themselves what they want their character to wear. There's also a role play element to the costumes. For example, if I'm going in to combat with Ash, I'll put her in armour. If I'm going in to a non-combat situation then I'll have her in more casual (sexy) gear. It's far superior to the Dragon Age model of only one outfit per character. It keeps everyone happy and provides diversity in the character's wardrobe.

[Rivverrabbit]

You know, I only played ME3's story once so I didn't really think about that. But I was just thinking the non-armor option would be their casual clothes -- basically, ME2 -- and their armor would be, well, armor. Hopefully the remaster does come out so I can replay 3 and get a better feel for, and memory of, what you said!

[Degs29]

I'm surprised it needs to be stated again, but this part that I trimmed out shows that people are still missing the point entirely.  Nudity and sexuality are about as far from being 'against my values' as anything could possibly get.

 

That's fair enough.  Like I said after that part your trimmed out, immersion is the second of two arguments that always pops up surrounding this issue.  I was responding to both issues.  You may not identify with the first argument (female characters shouldn't be sexualized), but there are clearly those out there who do (which can be seen in the OP's original thread on the subject). 

 

When it comes to immersion, I seem to have a greater tolerance level than you.  I understand sacrificing some realism for the sake of gameplay, story, character, etc.  If you want a real level of immersion, go check out the BDSSE.  They'll give you that level.  For me, I'm perfectly fine with the Mass Effect series when it comes to realism.

[Matthias King]

Noted.  I just wanted to make sure that my point was clear and not misconstrued.  I hate it when people think it's the sexuality itself that offends me, which it's most certainly not.

 

As for the realism of the Mass Effect series, I can suspend some disbelief.  I have no problem with that.  I think the main disconnect between a lot of the fans regarding this particular subject is that Mass Effect started out noticeably more realistic and mature than what it ultimately ended up being by ME3.

 

In fact, it was some of the those kinds of immature and cheap things that they chose NOT to do in Mass Effect 1 that made me fall in love with the game to begin with, then ME2 came along, and while great in a lot of ways, it also dragged the series down in a number of others.  One of which was pitching out their armor system and the realism they'd built there all just to have some boobies for 13-year-olds to gawk at, which doesn't offend my morals.  It offends my intelligence and my impression of what ME started out as, opposed to what it ended up as.

 

If any of that makes sense.

 

What gets me is how so many gamers cry for people to take games seriously and view it as an art form, which I do.  It's a young art form, but an art form nonetheless.  But then the second someone like me asks for the developers, such as Bioware, to elevate their game and aspire to something a little better, and rise above the lowest common denominator, those same people descend and all of a sudden have adopted the attitude of "relax dude, it's just a game, who cares?"

 

So which is it?  An art form, or some disposable thing not to be taken seriously?  I wish people would make up their minds.

 

Anyway, rant over.

[saladinbob]

Of the characters to have overtly sexy outfits, three I've already covered and agreed one is over the top, the other completely in keeping with the character. The fourth is Ashley. The entire point is that she's letting her hair down. For years (first two games) she's struggled against the prejudice of her Grandfather's surrender. She's fought the system all the way and so she's been completely focused on trying to advance her career. Come Mass Effect 3 and she's not only received a significant promotion but she's quickly becomes a Spectre. She's made it, against all the odds, she's over come her family's history and achieved something special. Why shouldn't she let her hair down a bit and relax? She's wearing an Alliance Officer's uniform, why does it need to be zipped up to the top of her neck? It's not like she's flashing her boobs at every hands turn, she's just showing she's reached a point in both her career and her life were she can finally relax a little. The costume merely reflects that.

[Hans Olo]

I have to disagree with this whole premise for a remaster. Imagine if you bought a remaster of the game and they CUT content out that you had no problem with? I'd be pretty pissed if they cut out content from Origins because of X.

 

There should be no dramatic changes to the content of a remaster ME trilogy. This includes the art of the game.

 

All these issues should be addressed for what people want from MENext. By all means say, "Please do X in MENext." but leave past games alone. I don't want someone else's moral code dictating what should be changed for past games, make your argument for future content. Also we shouldn't whiewash past mistakes let them stand as a milestone of where we have been and where we need to go. If we change objects of art and media because we find them objectionable we start getting into the realm of 1984 where parts of the past are removed if its not "approved" by the state. We need to let our history including gaming history be what it actually was to provide context for future debate on where the industry needs to grow and where its doing the right thing. If we always retroactively change bits we don't like we lose context.

 

Very well put. I know of course this is a long shot and that they (probably) won't make a remaster like this just for me (though I would appreciate it if they did).

 

What I would like to see however is that they put this into practice with sequels. With such a rich and strong foundation in the first game it would be a horrible waste if they forsook it all in favour of easy cash "T&A and beefcake". 

 

Sex appeal is part of what makes a woman a woman. 

 

<And then a few lines later: > 

 

I think it's sad people seem to focus so much on this physical aspect of a character, and would hope they don't do so in real life.  I mean if you see a woman dressed somewhat provocatively on the street, do you automatically assume she's a wanton whose only value is in her appearance? 

 

 

Did I just have a stroke or are you contradicting yourself, twisting yourself in knots? 

 

I do not see those girls as wantons or sluts or easy, I see them as I see myself, confident in who they are. Confidence does not have anything to do with dress sense.

 

One can be confident in a large chicken suit and a birth day suit. One can be sexy without being half naked and one can be half naked without being sexy. 

 

Please do not conflate the need for people in a warzone to protect "their junk" and arms and eyes from fire and bullets with Jack being a hussy because she does not wear armour.

 

*edit* 

 

I would go so far as to say that THIS is what it all boils down to, after reading all the "raising your kids to be good" and "morals come from good parents" and "but I like Jack without clothes and I like Miranda's butt" and "less boobs means you are prudish gtfo" which a lot of the nay saying in this thread boils down to. 

 

Being a guy, I have no hatred in the slightest for boobs, I daresay that as a single guy after complaining on forums about games and playing said games my bandwidth is mostly spent on porn. An exaggeration of course but you get my point.

 

It sometimes feels like arguing politics with a monkey, even if you win he is gonna throw **** at you. 

 

You like boobs, we like boobs. You want the sweater puppies to run free in the meadow that is the Mass Effect universe, we want them to have some covering when bullets start flying and for mouths and eyes etc to be covered when there is acid or vacuum in the air. What they do when visiting the Citadel or Omega or during off hours is not my concern.

[AzureRose]

I never think of them as wearing sexy outfits.. Their outfit, fits perfectly with their personality. I guess I just have a different pov..

[DanishGambit]

It's a storytelling issue really. The outfits they wear shouldn't matter since shields/barriers make them nigh invincible. If they run out they can simply take cover until they recharge. It should also be pointed out that Shepard's team is not a military force. It's an infiltration unit designed to go where larger forces can't get to without being detected. Of course this was entirely blown out of the water everytime Shepard stepped foot on a planet but there were some upsides to having a small team and the Normandy's stealth drive. 

 

The people on the team were also infiltrators so they had no use for armor. Shepard, Kaiden, Ashley and James were the only soldiers on board and since Jacob quit the Alliance he had no armor to wear anyway. The other characters were better suited for engaging enemies in other ways. You'd expect them to travel light with little more than bulletproof armor. The only use for armor would be in situations where you expected to lose your shields and barriers constantly like a warzone. And that's where the problem starts. 

 

Most of the confrontations in the game featured the team going right through the front door of the bad guys location and doing exactly what Hackett could've done with a military force if he had the resources for it. Time and time again Shepard's team walked to a location and took cover in the trenches like any other military force while they engaged Cerberus' military. And unfortunately the entire team apart from the Alliance Navy was ill-equipped for the job. Kasumi and Thane weren't soldiers and yet there they were with their light gear on hoping they wouldn't get sniped when their shields went down. This simply wasn't what Shepard's team was meant to do. In fact ME1 was the only game that did it right. 

 

They infiltrated Noveria's snow base, the Krogan labs and even the Citadel. But in 2 and 3 the game took in more cover-shooting elements and the team started engaging military forces. It didn't look right when people like Liara toting an smg, some biotics and a lab coat were engaging  said forces. Sure these guys were extraordinary but sometimes bad things happen and it's no one's fault. Just look at that headshot Jacob could take during the suicide mission or how Jack could get flung around the engine room like a rag doll. Miranda and Thane could've been smashed by a steel wall plate. 

 

Level design also changed. In ME1 you could usually make your team take positions in good locations. In 2 and 3 the design became more squared and the only real strategy was to split the team into three and just sweep forward the area. In fact if it wasn't for the turrets, a lot of Cerberus battles would be a lot easier to do that way. Anyway the easiest solution would be to simply create armor without losing the sex appeal they want to go for. As long as the armor did it's job it wouldn't matter much how it looked.

[StealthGamer92]

I disagree about 1 thing, and that's Jacob's lack of armour. He was working for a militant(key word) organization. Even though Cerberus seperated themselves from the Aliance they had the recources, background, and need to give there soldiers armour. I don't think they would let any of their operitives go out dressed like they were in ME2 realisticaly. Hell they'd probably even invest in alien armour, as much as they are anti-alien, seeing how much they were counting on Shepard and those he/she recruited to stop the Collecor attack's.

[saladinbob]

I think people are also missing another key point in this debate. Two hundred years ago, if you wore armour, it was made of Steel. Today, you wear Kevlar, a much lighter and more flexible material. Whose to say in another two hundred years there will be an even lighter, even more flexible material that allows for clothing to be by and large bullet proof?

[StealthGamer92]

I think people are also missing another key point in this debate. Two hundred years ago, if you wore armour, it was made of Steel. Today, you wear Kevlar, a much lighter and more flexible material. Whose to say in another two hundred years there will be an even lighter, even more flexible material that allows for clothing to be by and large bullet proof?

 

Maybe but I doubt it considering weapons usualy advance much faster than the technoledgy  used to defend against it. To use your steel armour point it was still in use well after guns and other weapons made to penetrate it came around.

[Matthias King]

I think people are also missing another key point in this debate. Two hundred years ago, if you wore armour, it was made of Steel. Today, you wear Kevlar, a much lighter and more flexible material. Whose to say in another two hundred years there will be an even lighter, even more flexible material that allows for clothing to be by and large bullet proof?

 

I'd be willing to accept something along those lines if they had established it logically and realistically. 

 

But they didn't. 

 

The existence of armor as it's portrayed in the ME universe essentially precludes what you're suggesting.  Why do I say that?  Because if there were indeed materials available that were essentially cloths that equaled the protection of ballistic armor plating, then armors like what the Alliance and the Turian Hierarchy and other races commonly use would have already become obsolete, replaced by these fabrics almost as soon as they were proven effective. 

 

Ergo, the armors we see in ME1 would no longer be in use by the time ME1 took place if there were such fabrics present in the ME universe.

[von uber]

I never think of them as wearing sexy outfits.. Their outfit, fits perfectly with their personality. I guess I just have a different pov..

 

I have never understood what exactly it is about Jack's character as a murdering violent sociopath with a history of mental and physical abuse that means it is in character to walk around with only her ****** covered by two straps.

Or a nearly thousand year old extra judicial assassin who is observing a strict morality code flashing her wabs in people's faces.

 

Maybe I'm missing something here.

[DanishGambit]

I have never understood what exactly it is about Jack's character as a murdering violent sociopath with a history of mental and physical abuse that means it is in character to walk around with only her ****** covered by two straps.

Or a nearly thousand year old extra judicial assassin who is observing a strict morality code flashing her wabs in people's faces.

 

Maybe I'm missing something here.

Jack's outfit reflects her rebelious nature and Samara likes to look good. Also... wabs?

[ZipZap2000]

We talked about this last week until a mod closed the thread. ( http://forum.bioware...se-of-next-gen/) 

 

I asked the mod ( http://forum.bioware...3-biowaremod03/ ) what should happen next, twice. As I got no reply I assume we are free to continue talking about it.

 

Main points that were made:

 

- Cleavage/impractical suits - Samara, Miranda, (teacher) Jack, to a lesser extent Benezia.

- Suicidal breather masks - going into a vacuum without anything to cover your eyes, ears, butt and/or other bodily openings will get you killed.

- Armour not being "armoury" - we all understand that a game needs to have a unique feeling, but spandex, latex or leather, these things do not protect against bullets, fire, ice. 

 

Most of these points has some people for and against. While I myself can not logically find a reason why someone ought be unprotected on the battlefield, others felt this was part of the unique game feeling/ aesthetic.

 

Discuss.

 

Ps. As the mute mod mentioned, please keep it civil.

 

Leave it alone. When you start pulling apart the artwork, you pull apart the atmosphere with it. I'm fairly sure the people who complain about things that wouldn't make sense if it were real life will get over it. It is after all a video game if people wanted to play "real life the video game" someone would have recognised that and made a lot of money out of it. 

 

I play games to escape the real world not to pretend the game is the real world. 

[Farangbaa]

I'm surprised it needs to be stated again, but this part that I trimmed out shows that people are still missing the point entirely.  Nudity and sexuality are about as far from being 'against my values' as anything could possibly get.
 
Everyone could run around the ship buck naked for all I care.  It wouldn't make much sense and I imagine the characters would probably get cold that way, but that's not the point of this discussion at all.
 
The one and only thing people in this thread have against the 'sexy' outfits is that they are laughably out of place on the battlefield.  They are wearing catsuits or sometimes next to nothing in toxic environments and in all-out firefights.  That and the fact that they are wearing non-sealed suits and breather masks on those same toxic environments and in some cases, places with zero breathable atmosphere and probably sub-zero temperatures.  All for the sake of cheap sexuality aimed squarely at 13 year old boys.
 
I'm an adult and I have absolutely zero problem with adult themes, nudity, and sexuality.  It's ALL about context. 
 
CONTEXT.  Does it make sense in the given situation?
 
Should they be naked during sex scenes?  Yes, they absolutely should.  Do I have a problem with sex scenes in games?  Absolutely not, especially when they actually mean something to the story and aren't gratuitously thrown in for no reason. 
 
Should characters be dressed in non-combat uniforms or casual clothing aboard the ship?  Absolutely.  Should that clothing reflect their personality?  Absolutely.  Should some of those characters express their sexuality and push the boundaries with their casual dress?  If that fits the character then absolutely.
 
Should characters be running around a Tuchanka or Luna battlefield half naked or in pajamas?  Absolutely not.  It just makes no damn sense whatsoever.

100% agree

tl;dr version of your post:

Nudity in shower: good
Cleavage in the vacuum of space: bad.

[General TSAR]

- Cleavage/impractical suits - Samara, Miranda, (teacher) Jack, to a lesser extent Benezia.

Especially with warriors like Samara, yeah we get it, she's busty now put a breast plate on that obvious weak point.

 

Or better yet have toggle for armor and what they wear off duty.

[Matthias King]

100% agree

tl;dr version of your post:

Nudity in shower: good
Cleavage in the vacuum of space: bad.

 

I approve of this TL;DR

[Hans Olo]

I think people are also missing another key point in this debate. Two hundred years ago, if you wore armour, it was made of Steel. Today, you wear Kevlar, a much lighter and more flexible material. Whose to say in another two hundred years there will be an even lighter, even more flexible material that allows for clothing to be by and large bullet proof?

 

See my reply down there.

 

I'd be willing to accept something along those lines if they had established it logically and realistically. 

 

But they didn't. 

 

The existence of armor as it's portrayed in the ME universe essentially precludes what you're suggesting.  Why do I say that?  Because if there were indeed materials available that were essentially cloths that equaled the protection of ballistic armor plating, then armors like what the Alliance and the Turian Hierarchy and other races commonly use would have already become obsolete, replaced by these fabrics almost as soon as they were proven effective. 

 

Ergo, the armors we see in ME1 would no longer be in use by the time ME1 took place if there were such fabrics present in the ME universe.

 

Exactly, bullets (or bits of material the size of a grain of sand, flung out at insane speeds) would simply not be stopped by a layer of cloth and if it were stopped that would mean the fabric is so rigid movement would be severely restricted. That is why kevlar is only worn around the chest and ballistic plates only inserted in slots there and not around the elbow joint or on the legs.

 

The Turians have the biggest and most advanced military in the ME universe, one would think they would know what they were doing.

 

Leave it alone. When you start pulling apart the artwork, you pull apart the atmosphere with it. I'm fairly sure the people who complain about things that wouldn't make sense if it were real life will get over it. It is after all a video game if people wanted to play "real life the video game" someone would have recognised that and made a lot of money out of it. 

 

I play games to escape the real world not to pretend the game is the real world. 

 

Are you saying you did not like the atmosphere, ambiance, flavour, aesthetics etc etc of ME1?

[ZipZap2000]

See my reply down there.

 

 

Exactly, bullets (or bits of material the size of a grain of sand, flung out at insane speeds) would simply not be stopped by a layer of cloth and if it were stopped that would mean the fabric is so rigid movement would be severely restricted. That is why kevlar is only worn around the chest and ballistic plates only inserted in slots there and not around the elbow joint or on the legs.

 

The Turians have the biggest and most advanced military in the ME universe, one would think they would know what they were doing.

 

 

Are you saying you did not like the atmosphere, ambiance, flavour, aesthetics etc etc of ME1?

 

Loved it which is why i wouldn't want them to change that either. 

[Demonique]

We talked about this last week until a mod closed the thread. ( http://forum.bioware...se-of-next-gen/) 

 

I asked the mod ( http://forum.bioware...3-biowaremod03/ ) what should happen next, twice. As I got no reply I assume we are free to continue talking about it.

 

Main points that were made:

 

- Cleavage/impractical suits - Samara, Miranda, (teacher) Jack, to a lesser extent Benezia.

 

You forgot Ashley and her ridiculous catsuit

[Han Shot First]

You forgot Ashley and her ridiculous catsuit

 

To be fair Ashley's white & pink Phoenix armor in ME1 was equally bad. While it offers greater protection than Ashley's default outfit in ME3, it never made sense that she was wearing different armor from every other Alliance Marine on Eden Prime, or that it had two of the most untactical colors imaginable. She might as well have had a target painted on her chest that said, "Here I am...shoot me." Having said that...you can swap out it for something else. Thankfully she isn't stuck with Phoenix armor for the entire game.

 

Still, it's a bit confusing why she would be wearing that initially. I head canon that she was off duty when the Geth hit and was forced to arm and equip with whatever was at hand, which in her case was some gear scavenged from dead colonists.