I would think Veilstrike (upgraded) would be better for a Sleep combo with Chain Lightning, as the AoE and mana cost is much better.
That sort of thinking assumes AW's have issues with mana. With CC / Restorative Veil, they do not. SF is superior with the aforementioned is combo'ed, given the superior cooldown rendering SF every 3-12s vs VS's 10-24s. Less cooldown, more spells, more consistent sleep as allies tend to wake up sleeping targets.
Guest_Mortiel_*
That sort of thinking assumes AW's have issues with mana. With CC / Restorative Veil, they do not. SF is superior with the aforementioned is combo'ed, given the superior cooldown rendering SF every 3-12s vs VS's 10-24s. Less cooldown, more spells, more consistent sleep as allies tend to wake up sleeping targets.
Why not have both?
Aside, you are right about the lower cool down, but I will point out that you are speaking of the scenario in a theoretical environment working with metadata. The idea is to Nightmare combo enemies with Weakened + Shocked for Sleep, then Dispel to detonate the Sleep. The lower cool down premise only makes sense if you do not detonate the Nightmare combo. Why both with Dispel then?
What does a Nightmare combo do? Damage + Panic. What does Panic do? Scatters enemies. If you needed a second combo for a group, they would be likely too spread out for Stonefist's AoE to hit more than one enemy, but Veilstrike would be on cool down (and possibly in the same boat with the AoE range as Stonefist). Pull of the Abyss would be the answer there, clustering the enemies back up, but it's mana cost and cool down are much less ideal.
My point is that you seem to be thinking of detonating multiple Nightmare combos, or at least Sleep more enemies. Because a mage's staff has considerably lower base damage than a one-handed weapon, the Nightmare combo will do significantly less damage than the Templar's Weakened combo. This means that you do not want to rely on it as a "one-trick pony" build.
Hell, I'd say having Chain Lightning, Veilstrike, Stonefist, and Dispel would be a the ideal versatile build that has low mana costs and cool downs. Independently, you have damage, crowd-control, debilitating, and debuffing. That's pretty well rounded. Then, to add to it, you can combo the skills for a cool effect.
Sound like I experimented with it? That's because it's actually the same build in the video. I simply swapped Chain Lightning for Pull of the Abyss, mainly because Pull of the Abyss is pretty and makes cool noises. Logic FTW. 
Why not have both?
I want more combo variety! Also time / setup limitations that make quad component setup awkward.
speaking of the scenario in a theoretical environment
With dozens of promotions under my belt, do you really think I haven't tested it? You're right to assume most players haven't, or like to stick with only one CC build, but we're both of the similar experimental build exploration type. I've tried many things, and some things don't work well enough for me. It is not mere speculation for me.
I've used both SF and VS extensively, worked with their cd's and how they interact with other skills. VS has advantages but generally loses in versatility to SF, or when trying to have both-- the versatility of SF + another skill to SF + VS, as SF's cd with C. Clarity is so immediate that you'll be hard pressed to use it all the time.
Other skills include but not limited to: Fade Cloak, Fade Step, Pull of the Abyss, Mind Blast.
Nightmare combo do? Damage + Panic
If you needed a second combo for a group
I don't, they're dead before the second combo. Nightmare is roughly 800-1200 spirit damage depending on various circumstances, and an unrefreshed panic at that. Paralyze --> Discharge however is AoE lightning damage. Typically enemies are dead by this time, so the added panic is of no benefit to me.
Occam's razor is a guiding principle in simplicity. The SF-->Discharge combo (Static Charge Paralyze while being attacked casting SF --> Detonate) has fewer steps, setup, less room for error (Murphy's law) and more consistent results than four step dispel nightmare (weaken shock sleep dispel).
Don't get me wrong, I like your build. I find VS redundant when SF is available, and other skills could be added.
Guest_Mortiel_*
I don't, they're dead before the second combo.
What is the relevance of using Stonefist in the combo? It's cool down is apparently pointless if you kill everything before needing a second combo. Furthermore, it could be argued that Stonefist would be better not used in the combo so it's ready when needed because it's better (compared to Veilstrike) used as a panic-button skill for disabling enemies closing in on you.
Furthermore, you have a false argument in that this combo has four steps. It's three. You cast Chain Lightning, then Veilstrike/Stonefist, the Dispel. Three steps. Sleep is a byproduct of Weakened and Shocked (Chain Lightning doesn't Paralyze). This significantly hinders the complexity argument.
Also, the Discharge combo seem to regularly not work quite right for me when using Chain Lighting then Stonefist. It will detonate the initial target but not those caught in the AoE. Chain Lightning + Veilstrike + Dispel detonates reliably and if something happens to be left alive (because remember not all players have high-end gear), then Panic ensues. It is for this reason, and the fact of it being broken with several other Impact detonators, that I do not rely on the Discharge combo for anything. Nightmare, Weakened, and Rupture combos all work fine, conversely.
Off Topic:
I think you misunderstand Occam's Razor. It is not so much that simplicity is all-important. Occam's Razor instead simply goes by the concept, in the Scientific Process, that when not possessing all data, choosing a more simplistic theory is a good starting point. It does not say simplicity is always right. Furthermore, it is not a guiding principle in my build guides. It is often guiding where my builds start, but by the time it gets to a guide, I am balancing simplicity, practicality, versatility, and enjoyment.
Furthermore, tossing in Murphy's Law, which you are using as a euphemism for the player screwing up, is also kind of misused here. What you are trying to convey is actually Hanlon's Razor, or at least a variant therein. Murphy's Law largely rests often on variations outside of your control (e.g. random chance or "bad luck"), whereas Hanlon's Razor largely dismisses attempts to blame user error on mere chance or "bad luck" in a direct rebuttal to Murphy's Law.
Also, the Discharge combo seem to regularly not work quite right for me when using Chain Lighting then Stonefist. It will detonate the initial target but not those caught in the AoE.
I was under the impression Discharge only works on Paralyzed targets. Chain Lightning only Shocks, so using Stonefist should cause Sleep, which it seems to do reliably (assuming the target can sleep). If you don't see the actual word "Discharge", it probably didn't Discharge.
The times where you can one-spell self-detonate for a Discharge combo is if someone is attacking you as you cast Stonefist, assuming you have the passive that says something like "Paralyzes enemies that attempt to interrupt your spellcasting". Can't remember the name of the skill off the top of my head. If you have that passive, then attacking enemies (especially melee ones) will be Paralyzed and then Impact Detonated by the single Stonefist cast.
Guest_Mortiel_*
I was under the impression Discharge only works on Paralyzed targets. Chain Lightning only Shocks, so using Stonefist should cause Sleep, which it seems to do reliably (assuming the target can sleep). If you don't see the actual word "Discharge", it probably didn't Discharge.
The times where you can one-spell self-detonate for a Discharge combo is if someone is attacking you as you cast Stonefist, assuming you have the passive that says something like "Paralyzes enemies that attempt to interrupt your spellcasting". Can't remember the name of the skill off the top of my head. If you have that passive, then attacking enemies (especially melee ones) will be Paralyzed and then Impact Detonated by the single Stonefist cast.
It's funny, actually. Shocked or Paralyzed + Impact does Discharge (at least if Iremember correctly). Shocked + Weakened does Sleep. Stonefist at base is an Impact detonator and upgrades to inflict Weakened.
If Shocked + Impact doesn't Discharge, then that would explain why it's not working right for me lol.
Sweet! New concepts! I don't think it applies though . . .
What is the relevance of using Stonefist in the combo?
Shocked or Paralyzed + Impact does Discharge (at least if Iremember correctly
If Shocked + Impact doesn't Discharge, then that would explain why it's not working right for me lol.
Ok, I'm wrong. It did apply to your understanding of Discharge.
Haxaw has it correct. Paralyze + Impact/Precision Detonator = Discharge. . The passive is named Static Charge, and paralyzes as enemies attack while you cast. Paralyze also shocks. The deal is if you have the passive, and you're casting SF at close range, you'll get an automatic discharge combo that leaves the enemy in a sleep state afterward due to weaken+shock interaction.
SF is an impact detonator. VS is not. SF would self-prime and detonate with SC. VS would not. See where I'm getting at? I love VS on a keeper, but SF is better for the AW.
Simplicity vs Complexity does matter however. The fewest steps required is the most desire-able for any engineer designing a product. In this case, there's basically only one step to get a desire-able sleep combo, whereas CL+VS is at least two.
What would you rather do, take two casts to do almost the same thing? Granted SF + VS cast differently and different range, but most of the time it'll be negligible difference. Or would you do it in one step, gain discharge combo for aoe damage and spirit damage on top of that. I know what I'd do.
Occam's Razor is a guiding principle, and I think it applies. Murphy's law applies to the idea that other factors will interrupt your additional steps. "Whatever can go wrong, will" The more steps you have, the more chances you have for something unexpected to go wrong. Like a Brute, Terror or unseen Shadow making your life difficult between casts.
It's cool down is apparently pointless
Primarily useful for perma-snoozing the RTC, and the above SF-->Discharge-->Sleep combo at melee range.
Guest_Mortiel_*
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I think this debate has run it's course, as we are now debating subjective points.
People can play whatever builds they find fun. There are no "best" builds. Certainly there can be "bad" builds (Caltrops FTW!), but that does not apply here. My build is no better or worse than yours, just different. We like to experiment and find new ideas to keep things fresh. Enough said.
No, not all things are subjective. Yours is different, and qualitiatively/quantifiably better at some things, worse at others. Yours has better options to keep a target knocked down, and here's the important part "due to" (the objective & quanitifiable reasoning) extra low cost weaken abilities. The point of best, pre-requisites it states what they're 'best' at, otherwise it is meaningless. It is like saying oh the bunny is a six, without stating units. Well six what? Meters tall? Kilograms?
Mine's better overall dps and combos, but is terrible for new players, as there's a skill requirement to use. Absolutely terrible without explaining how it works.
Reduced steps (and time) for combos is not a subjective point. It takes measureably and prove-ably longer to cast chain lightning then veil strike then dispel, than to stonefist.
You may prefer to be friendly, but that's also denying there's proveable fact some comparisons are better or worse at specific qualities. Best at everything? Usually No. Better than, or best at some things, worse at others? Yes. If there are bad builds there are also good ones, and ones better than others.
The statements I've argued are not pointless, and are not subjective. Statements such as that SF Discharges, but shocked does not can be tested. The rebuttal, "that's just your opinion man" or "its just subjective" is The Dude Fallacy . It isn't just opinion when you can back it up with evidence.
I was under the impression Discharge only works on Paralyzed targets. Chain Lightning only Shocks, so using Stonefist should cause Sleep, which it seems to do reliably (assuming the target can sleep). If you don't see the actual word "Discharge", it probably didn't Discharge.
True, Discharge only works on Paralyzed enemies. Also, as noted below, the text pop up isn't a guarantee that the combo has taken place. If you don't see the number for the extra damage, it didn't happen.
SF is an impact detonator. VS is not. SF would self-prime and detonate with SC. VS would not. See where I'm getting at? I love VS on a keeper, but SF is better for the AW.
Penguin did some testing on Impact combos and the result was that SF doesn't actually work as an Impact Detonator. You can see the text for the combo effect pop up but the extra damage to the enemy doesn't actually get dealt. The video is here: https://www.youtube....h?v=pdAPDOWMPNk
Guest_Mortiel_*
True, Discharge only works on Paralyzed enemies. Also, as noted below, the text pop up isn't a guarantee that the combo has taken place. If you don't see the number for the extra damage, it didn't happen.
Penguin did some testing on Impact combos and the result was that SF doesn't actually work as an Impact Detonator. You can see the text for the combo effect pop up but the extra damage to the enemy doesn't actually get dealt. The video is here:
True, Discharge only works on Paralyzed enemies. Also, as noted below, the text pop up isn't a guarantee that the combo has taken place. If you don't see the number for the extra damage, it didn't happen.
Both what you and I said are true. I said that if you don't see the text, then the combo hasn't occurred. It's also true that even if you do see it, it may not have occurred.
Although, for some reason, I thought Stonefist only failed to correctly trigger Shatter. I didn't realize Discharge was bugged too. Live and learn.
Guest_Mortiel_*
Both what you and I said are true. I said that if you don't see the text, then the combo hasn't occurred. It's also true that even if you do see it, it may not have occurred.
Although, for some reason, I thought Stonefist only failed to correctly trigger Shatter. I didn't realize Discharge was bugged too. Live and learn.
From what I am remembering now, I think all Impact Detonators are bugged... I think. I may be wrong there.
Pretty sure Mighty Blow and Whirlwind work as advertised.
From what I am remembering now, I think all Impact Detonators are bugged... I think. I may be wrong there.
Pretty sure Mighty Blow and Whirlwind work as advertised.
Lunge and Slash and Shield Bash work as intended, but Mighty Blow, Whirlwind are bugged like Stone Fist, afaik. I have no idea if they fixed it recently though, because I haven't used those abilities in a while.
I think all Impact Detonators are bugged... I think. I may be wrong there
Mighty Blow, Whirlwind are bugged like Stone Fist, afaik
You're wrong. You're not trying to be, but you are because your methodology is insufficient. Hanlon's Razor does apply here. The videos shown are pre patch 3, and are do not even show mighty blow or whirlwind, let alone with damage passives involved.
I've screenshot demonstrated at the time before patch 3 how MB works with passives to shatter. I've since made consistent discharge / shatter / etc with MB & WW even before P3.
You're spreading misinformation using old builds of the game. You should pull that video, or at least annotate it is from before patch 3 every time you use it.
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